A more alien-like economy (that can't fail)

Logical assumptions for the illogical Earth beings that refuse to live within their means and value materialism over anything else.

Originally posted by badmedia
The problem with the economy today is not money. And it never has been. Money is nothing more than a generic symbol of energy to ease commerce. Buying products and selling products is merely a representation of a transfer of energy. And sorry, but there is nothing wrong with "hoarding" what you've earned. Why do we sleep? To hoard back some energy so that we are more productive when we need the energy.

Ah! Someone else that GETS IT! As things stand now, we have a finite quanity of energy at our disposal. Money is representative of this energy, in the final analysis.

What happens, given our level of tech (which is increasing geometrically), if we should all have access to Free Energy?

Robots to do all work? All our time doing what we WANT to do? No need for money? No ELITE? No SLAVES?

Y'betchy.

The problem is that we live under a system of economic slavery. Were a certain group of people are allowed to print up money and give it to where they want, which in turn robs the people of their wealth. And it's extremely hard for most people to grasp because it's not even a physical taking of the wealth.

If you have $100 in the economy, and you own $10 you have 10% of the worlds wealth. If there are 10 apples in the world, then each apple is worth $10. You have enough purchasing power to buy 1 apple. In comes an outside force who is able to print money up as much as they want. Lets say they add $100 into the economy. Now there is $200 total. And your $10 only represents 5% of the wealth. Now each apple costs $20 and you can only buy half an apple. Your purchasing power was just robbed from you, and you never lost a single dollar in your wallet.

And if that wasn't bad enough, this same entity makes us pay the $100 it created back. Plus interest which is never created. By default you have a system of debt which the printers of the money have all the control over you. There is never enough money in this kind of a system.

Excellent illustration of the problem...

Who hurts the most from this are the poor people on fixed income. When the price of that apple doubles, they don't have a way of making another $10 to buy that whole apple. Their quality of living decreases. And yours does too, unless you are lucky enough to increase your income as the inflation increases.

All we need to do to fix our problem is to remove the entity that is producing the extra money, and giving it away to their corporate buddies so the CEO's can bring in millions of dollars in pay as their bk their company. So that the money in peoples pockets keeps it's value.

Or... Find a way of accessing unlimited energy, eh? Then, money is moot. Money is something no one will love. With no one loving money...the root of all evil is gone.

Gold and silver is of course the easy way out. Because it keeps the inflation rates low. But it's not the best system. The best system is one like colonial scripts. Which is similiar to what we have today, but the new created money is done so only at the rate of growth so that you do not have inflation or deflation. This is supposed to be what the fed does, but they don't, nor can they as long as they create the money as a loan + interest. And the newly created money would NOT be a loan that has to be paid back. It will not be a system of debt. The newly created money + corporate taxes should be the only income the government operates on. Individuals should not be paying taxes in a "free" society.

Good idea if we cannot access the energy in the Universe - but we CAN (and that is why I have a difficult time with the OP here; any sufficiently advanced society on a tech scale, given free energy, would have no need of money), and in fact, we DO have it - or rather... The ELITE have it. But they will not give it to us because...if they do, they don't "own" us anymore.

So I don't buy into the bee hive mentality, or communism as I call it. Any higher intelligence will understand and respect free will, and the freedom it requires. And the only system of money that respects the individual is one of the free markets behind sound money. Anything less than that is economic slavery. And that is what we are all today.

I agree with this as well. I don't think Alien Bee has anything to offer the Human Individuals. (I may suspect there are Alien Bees out there, though; however, they would only offer us what we are being offered now: slavery.) But the fact is, we do not need money.

Imagine how you would do if you had an energy source in your house that always worked and you didn't have to pay anyone for the energy... Imagine one in your car, too. Imagine an organic garden operated by robots... Or having an organic cow who is milked by robots, and robots made cheeses and milk and sour cream... Imagine that all your energy needs were there whenever and wherever you needed them. What would you, in the long run, need money for?

Nothing at all.

Nothing wrong with hoarding energy. Hoarding energy is what makes rockets work etc. What is wrong in our society is we have people who hoard energy by silently stealing it from others. And it is done systematically and has been legalized. If your or I did it, we would be put in prison for counterfeit. When they do it, it's a bailout or "for the good of the community".

What's wrong with "pulling the energy from the plenum?" ("Plenum" being opposite of "Vacuum;" we do not live in a vacuum, we live in a plenum.) Remove money. It is unnecessary.

Energy can be nearly free if its solar, wind and wave too! From what he says, there is no real free energy. The energy from the void, exists, and is used for advanced purposes. Yet the cost of it is on the clock, or time of the star (our sun for example) and even the clock on the galaxy. So using it in large amounts shortens the actual time we can spend in this solar system, even galaxy, ultimately with too much abuse, universe. The universe is already populated. There is a race that uses or rather abuses its energy and then keeps moving on and collecting other races as low status federation members which allow them to abuse their energy. But in the end, the higher level, more responsive, aliens call a halt at continual expansion. If a lower level group such as ours clocks our solar system, thats it for us. No one will make room as we brought it on ourselves. So alternate energy, not just energy from the vacuum, is needed. We need to be conservative with our use of the free energy and not sign into a federation that merely wishes to come out ahead at our expense.

Edit to add: there has to be a system that (even if it is moneyless or done in a different fashion) has to provide things that people need. Ie. art, art supplies, tools, spinning and weaving, music. In short there are still things needed to provide for the many interests and talents of people.

[edit on 21-9-2008 by mystiq]

Originally posted by gl2
badmedia: You land on my use of the word "centralized" as though I meant Stalinist everything. I was talking about a coherent, ecological, computer and resource-based "economy." Without that integrated, cross-checked standard, it can't be sustainable, a commonality.

I never mentioned a word about Stalin. Not once. I never even mentioned the USSR. Once again you are arguing image and don't have the first clue about the philosophy behind it. You've just strung a bunch of words out here that have no actual meaning. The philosophy of communism is that the good of the community is all that matters at the expense of the individual. And the reason you and others want a government to do it is so that you can force others to go along.

Nobody is stopping you from creating programs that benefit the community. But that isn't good enough for you. You think everyone should have the same thing.

The truth is, advanced aliens continue to suggest that even on their planets with integrated, essentially equal standards, there are counter-posed sub-regions that can critique, pose alternatives and escape that Stalinist-like centrality that you fear. It's rather obvious---the problems of one lump government are quickly discovered on every planet. Even within a given region, you need alternatives and protective legal checks, agencies and independents to break the hive mold whenever it begins to choke off critique and new ideas.

The truth is you are just using aliens as a way of promoting the same old communist agenda. At this point, I believe you are a fraud. Suddenly there is a way you can opt out? 1 minute you are talking about centralizing everything, and the next you say these "aliens" quickly figure this stuff out? You claim to have knowledge of other planets, yet you can't even grasp basic economics? And rather than addressing the things I say, you just say "Oh your thinking of stalin, this is different". Quit insulting my intelligence please.

And then you go on a rant as if I support the current stuff that is going on. When clearly I do not. All the stuff that is happening now is EXACTLY WHAT YOU ARE ASKING FOR. Look, I know what the federal reserve and what is going on. The government is taking over the financial systems and centralizing them. That is what communists do.

You promote dualistic points of view. You seem to feel that because you can point out the errors in Bush, that it somehow validates your opinion. Sorry, but it does not.

You are a fraud. And for the record, I don't fear anything. I am here by my own choice, and I could have left over a year ago.




[edit on 21-9-2008 by badmedia]

Originally posted by sty
reply to post by gl2

 

The problem is (i guess) - how to make a system that cannot be abused ! The perfect financial system that cannot be cheated even by the brightest minds - is this possible? also, as long as interest exists, the private banks would manage to increase their slice from the "eco" resources, points or whatever we decided to consider as currency .
This is a video I like: (the last 15 minutes contains a solution for the banking system)
[edit on 21-9-2008 by sty]

Yes sir, this is exactly the problem. I like the video you posted. I am watching it now(again I think). Great history on how fractional banking came about.

We currently live under economic slavery, where debt = money. Just like the video you posted. And it is being passed off as being free market capitalism. Which is the lie. The leaders call it free market and capitalism just like they call the Patriot Act "Patriotic".

And the OP is all about continuing this lie in order to promote his own agenda.

Yet I'm supposed to believe he has some "higher" contact with ET's and yet he doesn't even understand this basic truth of the situation. It's sickening.





[edit on 21-9-2008 by badmedia]

it cracks me up all these brain boxes, i aint no brain box but ill give it a try,all of your words would probably mean NOTHING to all those political govermental twits they are one minded only listening to them that have authority and a big name in the world, revolt, lmao get yourself killed for no reason, how bout life, why cant we just live it out, worry not about wats going on in the government because the only way we would know the TRUTH is if we were THE MAN, and who is the man???no1 knows all we can do is assume who he is, look at all the conspiracys around the world not just in america, we all suffer from lack of truth, and the government is just too scared to reveal the truth, why? i wouldnt have a clue because i dont dabble in that rubbish, we cant stop the money problems not even if we had the most intellegent man on earth going for us, and most people think that the more intellegent people are the world renown people, but what do we know??nothing, unless you went around the world and personally interviewd every single individual which i doubt has even been accomplished, id say the most intellegent people would probably be the most humble and wise as well, theyd probably be so intellegent,wise and humble that they dont care about what is happening right now because they see something we dont??who knows??,you can constantly hit me with all this technical rubbish yet i will just read it and it will probably go in my brain and then vanish because i just DONT GIVE A DAM, most religeous people will say, "we need not worry about life today for it is in GODs hands, but i say we write our own destiny, if you ask me id say GOD is angry at a majority of the world why? well because he was trying to get us to live in peace and my definition of peace, not trying to be better than one another bacause in the end we are all the same , and what did we do? oh we thought that we knew everything there is to know about life and took it into our own hands, thus bringing me to my point we write our own destiny, so NO it aint in GODs hands anymore because we grew ignorant of him and now its up to us, i have nothing against anyone ya know, forgive me if i aint making sense i just write whatever is on my mind im sure yous will be clever enough to put it together lol i hope, all i care about is getting on in life and i know that one day we are all going to get our say because eventually the government will fail and fall then there is going to be complete chaos, how many people hate the government for what they have done to us??well if you ask me id say a majority of the world, as for aliens lol could this be yet another one of the governments conspiracys?? who knows??, so many theorys so many thoughts but no facts?? correct me if im wrong but wasnt there a place called area 51 which apparently held alien captives?? then wasnt there a big coverup or something??,well something like that anyway, but all in all people, live life man, take it easy, tread lightly,be peaceful(im sure thats what all them aliens say..aint it??), well i hope that (like all christians say)GOD will come here and judge the whole world because i thinks its about time we all learnt a lesson (including myself),then maybe he will understand as to why we are the way we are because im sure we will all get our say he is merciful aint he? and maybe in some supernatural way he will completely change our state of mind, hey but who knows aye??, i reckon the truth would probably be something we wouldnt like??and what is that truth??again ill say I DONT KNOW because i didnt claim to know the truth nor do i know it, one more thing please try not to take anything i have said to offence because my intentions aint to piss anybody off but to tell you to just keep open minded, i mean talking about it is good but in the end we will never know the truth...well peace love and good happiness and stuffto you all(steve vai)
this is captain spoc over and out.....

Great movie sty. It's exactly what I've been talking about in this thread. The solution at the end is also the solution I have been talking about.

Everyone should watch that movie to understand the problem we are facing today. It's not free markets and capitalism that is our problem, it's our economy based on debt that we need to get rid of.

The only thing I didn't like was the biometrics part. Outside of that it was spot on.



Here's a somewhat related video. I'm not a huge fan of this guy in general, and don't usually watch him. But he is completely right in this case.

It's Rod Parsley, religious stuff etc. But it's relevant because if you know the story of Jesus, then you know the only time he got violent was against the moneychangers. We today are facing these same money changers.

video.google.com...

Simply, WOW


I think you actually have an inside line on the operations of alien species and there economy

even if you don't, your still right on the money

bravo my friend

Originally posted by mystiq
Energy can be nearly free if its solar, wind and wave too! From what he says, there is no real free energy. The energy from the void, exists, and is used for advanced purposes. Yet the cost of it is on the clock, or time of the star (our sun for example) and even the clock on the galaxy. So using it in large amounts shortens the actual time we can spend in this solar system, even galaxy, ultimately with too much abuse, universe. The universe is already populated. There is a race that uses or rather abuses its energy and then keeps moving on and collecting other races as low status federation members which allow them to abuse their energy. But in the end, the higher level, more responsive, aliens call a halt at continual expansion. If a lower level group such as ours clocks our solar system, thats it for us. No one will make room as we brought it on ourselves. So alternate energy, not just energy from the vacuum, is needed. We need to be conservative with our use of the free energy and not sign into a federation that merely wishes to come out ahead at our expense.

I am going to disagree. I think this is disinfo, because, since the Universe is expanding, it is the energy pouring in from the plenum (Dark Energy) that is expanding it. In effect, the plenum holds infinite energy. Even if we each used as much energy a year as a factory, which we are unlikely to do, it is a millionth of a drop in a very vast bucket of what's available. There is only a finite amount of energy we need to live in Elite-like luxury.

Edit to add: there has to be a system that (even if it is moneyless or done in a different fashion) has to provide things that people need. Ie. art, art supplies, tools, spinning and weaving, music. In short there are still things needed to provide for the many interests and talents of people.

What if robots are producing supplies, tools, textiles, etc., to the point that they can be had on demand? As for art, music, all the creative stuff... Yeah, we can produce these things, and then give them, as status items to those we care to.

"Value" will be counted in who created something. Character will be of value over material things.

I am a spinner and weaver, and artist. I do this no matter what things can be purchased because its my favorite past-time. Its very creative and helps me unwind. I love creating my own color combinations in yarn. Machines already do these things. Not as well as humans do however!

"Alien Economy= Communism? Islam?

limiting yourself for the sake of the whole?

I agree with the lucid parts of your post, greed etc. etc. I just don't like being talked to like I have never taken a history class, what planet did you visit btw?

Originally posted by mystiq
I am a spinner and weaver, and artist. I do this no matter what things can be purchased because its my favorite past-time. Its very creative and helps me unwind. I love creating my own color combinations in yarn. Machines already do these things. Not as well as humans do however!

Damn right man! Traditional art vs Digital art and such.

Its gotta be done by your hands, to experience the true craftsmanship.



Off topic.

You do a good job because it's something you enjoy. That is much more different than someone working 9-5 and doing it 40+ hours a week for years.

I love my job. I like to program. I'm self taught in it, and it's something that just comes natural. I work in an environment(at home) where my boss pretty much lets me do whatever I want. And as a result I am able to compete with companies that employ many many more people. I can easily work 60 hours a week, because it's comfortable and enjoyable.

But where is the art in being the trash man? And what about people who's jobs are the things we don't like to do?

My own idea of an alternate economy, or a more natural community, would be that the necessary things (ie. growing organic foods, etc) would be shared by all able body persons for a small amount of time (and if technology could do much of this, so much the better), and everyone would be able to draw the necessities of life. House raising would be performed by the communities for everyone, as occurs in Bali, and these may be much more natural and recycled and solar, wind. Earth would have neverending electrical with energy from waves. If we could have cars like mini ufos that flew, scarring the earth with roads and pollution would be nonexistant. For other works, people would develop the things they were born to do. Groups that could instruct and share resources and contacts in every field imaginable would be created. We would contribute from our talents and passions and take what was needed. Now if we were to join the galactic neighborhood and live longer lives, then our children would probably see their schooling increase to 150-180 years, something I've read is common in many other human societies that live longer. I always get my 17 year old to read these when I find them. Lol.
Edit to add: and we would all be training ourselves in psi, telepathy, remote viewing, etc. Once groups became active with this, the wolves in sheep clothing would be easier to spot.

[edit on 22-9-2008 by mystiq]

Originally posted by mystiq
Edit to add: and we would all be training ourselves in psi, telepathy, remote viewing, etc. Once groups became active with this, the wolves in sheep clothing would be easier to spot.
[edit on 22-9-2008 by mystiq]

Under the system I laid out, and under the system of the constitution that is exactly what you and your community should and would be able to do.

If your community was successful then you would get people wanting to move there, or work to make the same changes in their communities. That is how our government was setup and is supposed to work. That is what freedom is about.

You see, the federal governments only job is supposed to be to protect the rights listed, deal with foreign nations and ease commerce between nations. As per the 10th amendment, any jobs which aren't specifically listed are by default handed down to the state. Each state then also has it's own constitution which further outlines the states function and what it's job is to do. When the state doesn't pick it up, then it goes down to the community level, and then down to your own personal choice.

This gives the majority of the power to the individuals and communities. Decentralization of the power. Each higher governments purpose is to step in when the lower government is infringing on the rights of the people. The individual states are not allowed to take away the rights listed in the constitution, and if they do it's the job of the federal government to step in. The civil rights movement for example our federal government stepped in to make sure people got to vote. That was them doing their job.

And then as for how it works, read my previous posts in this thread. Where you have multiple programs, of which 1 program you have much authority in. Rather than having to elect someone in the entire nation to dictate the policy of your community.

This is how America was setup to work. As a limited government. However for the past 100 years our government has been exactly the opposite. One of limited rights and unlimited secretive government that has just gotten worse and worse.

Also, it's easy to see who the wolves are. I have no trouble with it. The things you mention are not needed. Politicians are people who promise false gifts. Notice I didn't promise any specific gifts in what I laid out, other than allowing you to make your own choices and have personal freedom and liberty.

The answer is already there, it's the constitution of the US. It's not just a list of rights, and anything else goes as we have today, it's a system designed to work in a certain way. I'd be more than happy to teach exactly how it's supposed to work. It's just what I've been talking about in this thread.

Here's another example of why it's such a good system. Want to know how to fix Iraq? Give them a copy of the constitution and explain how it's actually supposed to work, rather than trying to model a corrupt government like ours today.

You take Iraq and you create 3 states. Each state makes up their own area, the 3 states that have troubles. You then have a federal government to make up the country of Iraq. This federal government would be limited in it's duties. It's purpose would be to provide for the defense of the country, to ease commerce and make sure the states didn't infringe on whatever basic rights they would need. You also show them why the 9th and 10th amendments are needed to protect this.

Then each state is given more control over their area. And thus you do not have all 3 trying to take over the entire country to ensure their way of living is allowed. The states would also take up their own things, and then the tribal leaders or community leaders would take care of the daily things such as building, feeding, schooling etc. And they would be free to do so in peace.

It's a good system and it works as long as the people understand what it means to be free and don't let it get turned around on them like it has in America. Which was brought about by our own citizens greed and want to control others. Those who do not understand what it means to be free, and extend that freedom to others do not deserve it and will not have it. And that has been proven in the US.

Without safeguards such a system would not manifest on a planet, as, for example those with money already own most of the resources, even land, and communities under current systems are not able to start just as they please. The PTB even believe they own the minerals of the earth (diamonds in Africa) and the seeds of the earth. Next they will imagine all the water and air is theirs too. Another thing, with Iraq example specifically, no one should be forced to live under a system (ie. Sharia Law) if they don't wish to. So giving absolute power to local groups does not create equality or the necessary civilized separation of state and church that is every single sovereign child's right. So unless there was quick migration allowed, for the average person (not just the rich cooperate ones) to escape regional abuses, there would still be so much work left to do. We would simply be a corrupt planet with a few pockets of goodness and some fascist, even religious/fascist, and thats what we have right now. Earth isn't going to survive unless we make some real changes.

[edit on 22-9-2008 by mystiq]

[edit on 22-9-2008 by mystiq]

reply to post by mystiq


I'm really not sure what part of the federal governments actual job is to make sure the local communities don't infringe on the rights of others you missed in my post. If people go around breaking the law, then guess what? They go to jail. What a ridiculous argument on your part.

But you once again proved that you are not looking for freedom over your own life, you are looking for control over others. I'd like to know what in the world makes you think you have the right to control other people. What in the world gives you or anyone else the right to dictate how they will live their lives. 1 life to control isn't enough for you? Tough.

Which makes you just like the people you complain about, and is why you will never get what you seek. You are in agreement with the status quo that the people must be controlled. From that point on, you just want to argue about the general direction, and even then the difference is only minor.

You are exactly what you hate. The only thing you want to do is switch sides with them. Sorry, I don't want their control, and I don't want yours either. You have no right to try and run my life.




[edit on 22-9-2008 by badmedia]

We live in a world where currently everything is owned and patented by the elite. So things would have to change in order to create a world that benefits and empowers ordinary people. You can't even set up alternative communities easily. And we live in a world where there is an enormous amount of people born into and forced to endure unjust communities that are not aquainted with true human rights. Simply reinstating the US constitution is not going to resolve the worlds problems. As well, there still exists a police court and a police state. Does medical services exist for people as well and schools? Who pays for this? Taxes? Who decides what things should be paid for, a select few constituionalists, or an educated (not being done to much now, mainly misinfo) public. I wouldn't pay for a system of prisons and authority. In the current system of money, unless I see my tax dollars boomerang back into my community in universal medicare, and superlative programs for people, they will be taking money out of my dead cold fingers. So I don't quite know what you're talking about. This world works for only a few capitalists. Most people are suffering from it enormously. This has to change! The world is not capable of enduring any more abuse, so this has to change. Furthermore, I am not going to give my power away to any solutions that are not grass roots win win solutions for every single man woman and child on this planet, in every country and every region. No one is an island. Everyone is born in a shared community. The doctors, hospitals, schools and even the roads you drive on are connected to a shared community. Its how its organized that makes the difference between substantive equality, or pseudo-equality where you're just told "hey guys you're equal now go and make do with whatever life has dealt you and don't complain while we roll in the big pile of gold over here." Substantive equality is worded into our Canadian Constitution, and it means equalizing peoples situations so that their equality is meaningful in a real down to earth way.
So your talk about empowering versus disempowering doesn't even connect to what empowerment means to the average person.

why do good ideas have to be put outhere by aliens? surely a man or women came up with this idea then claimed this is how aliens do it.

is this how we avoid doing sensible things? because if somebody told us aliens said something, would that person be taken seriously by politicians etc? or listened to? unless they were hand in hand and in visable view with an alien whilst making the suggestion?

can good ideas be excused for being ignored this way?

the aliens told us we are destroying our planet. that we will destroy ourselves and now this. of course man has known this all along and been saying it but somehow we have to give the aliens credit?

are we more likely to listen to aliens than ourselves? why not just start a thread with the idea without the alien theme?

would people be more inclined to listen to the idea? does the alien theme hold it back?