Forum Reference Index AND Thread for Discussing anything related to 9/11, Pentagon, etc.

"In my eyes the real point of the matter is who had the ability to carry this off" Umm, let me think real hard on this one...how about....umm...19 guys from Saudi Arabia? Listen, before 9/11, security at airports was a joke. Bringing knives and boxcutters onto a plane and using them to scare the hell out of your average Susie homemaker is not exactly an elaborate mission. Running planes into the sides of buildings is not what we would call "rocket science". I was about twelve when my father took me up in an airplane and taught me how to fly in a straight line.

As for your "Popular Mechanics is a CIA front" link, I find it odd that you would link back to this site...at any rate, everything I read from that link amounts to "my brother knows a guy who knows a guy who is related to a woman who works with a guy who knows something". If you would like me to go into how exactly the CIA functions, I will. That could be an entirely different post.

Let's just say, for the sake of argument and fun, that some of these theories are true. What then? What would be the motivation? I'm sure this will bring a huge "it's all about the oil!!!" argument. If and when it does, I will be happy to go into that as well.

As far as being up to speed...my question is: What speed, exactly? All of the posts that I have read up to this point have been about as random as a crap shoot. I'll tell you what, you pick the topic, if it makes you more comfortable.

I know lets go after Afghanistan & Iraq" - HELLO - is anyone AWAKE out there? WTF is an
"Al-Queada"? This all smells like a Stinking Frame Up! Afghanistan & Iraq had NOTHING to do with the attack on us on 9/11! The "Taliban" & "Saddam Hussein" are NOT "Al-Queada". ]
By Seraphim_

I couldn't pass up a reply to this one... First of all, it's "Al Qaeda" there is no "U". Second, Afghanistan had everything to do with Al Qaeda, that is where they trained, and lived for many years before 9/11. If you would like me to tell you about how the ruling system in Afghanistan worked before 2001, just ask me and I will let you know.
Third, Iraq was a dictatorship responsible for murdering hundreds of thousands of their own people, as well as stealing money from a humanitarian effort (Oil for Food) to support terrorism (see Palestine).

I'm guessing that most of you guys are pretty young, so I am cutting you some slack. However, I along with many of my friends have labored too long in the far reaches of the globe to let statements like this go undisputed. The conspiracy thing is kind of cool, I understand, but be carefull of getting too swept up by this stuff.

Quote: "Afghanistan had everything to do with Al Qaeda, that is where they trained, and lived for many years before 9/11."

Well then Prove it! Prove that Osama Bin Laden Masterminded the 9/11 Attack while you are at it! I Hold that in Reality "Al Qaeda" is a "Wrapper Term" devised by U.S. Intelligence Agencies to mean
"Global Islamic Extremists".


[edit on 25-2-2005 by Seraphim_Serpente]

[edit on 25-2-2005 by Seraphim_Serpente]

First things first, it is you, not I, that is positing an idea that is contrary to common belief. Therefore, it is your duty as a "theorist" to display "proof".
However, for the sake of discussion, I will indulge you.
Al Qaeda is only a "wrapper" term as you put it, if your only source of information is MSM (Main Stream Media). If you do any research into the subject, you will find many other groups of Islamic fanatics (See "The Age of Sacred Terror" by Benjamin and Simon and also "Imperial Hubris" by Annonymous, just for starters). You imply with your statement that the people in the government are the ones keeping this information from you. Nothing could be farther from the truth. While it is true that most people use Al Qaeda as a blanket term, I can assure you that within the circles of counter-terror experts, this is not the case. People as a whole are only ignorant to the details because they want to be.
On to Osama bin Laden...bin Laden arrived in Afghanistan towards the end of the Soviet Union's occupation of that country (See "Charlie Wilson's War" by George Crile). Immediately upon the Soviet Unions departure, Afghanistan fell into turbulant civil war, wreaking havoc on an already devastated country. This developed into what we call a "breeding ground" for future members of Al Qaeda. bin Laden used the events of the Soviets occupation to sort of "rally the troops" if you will (even though he had very little to do with the aiding of the Mujahideen).In Osama (or Usama, depending on which translator you speak with), certain groups of poverty stricken freedom fighters found not only a spiritual godfather, but a finacier, as well. Although he had been kicked out of his home country of Saudi Arabia, he still collected millions of dollars from his fathers business. With this money he was able to finance the development of Al Qaeda, not only in Afghanistan, but places like Somalia as well (see "Black Hawk Down" Book by Mark Bowden, movie at any Blockbuster). Through the training of men, and declaring of "Fatwas" (a religous edict), bin Laden distributed his propaganda around the world. Included in this propaganda would be a remarkable invention known as the "video tape" wherein bin Laden actually states his purpose and admits his deeds for the world to see.
Now, I'm sure you have some radical response to the fact that bin Laden admitted on tape to the events of 9/11, but I would like you to seriously consider what I have written here. This is not "theory", this is documented history. Read a couple of these books that I have mentioned, or a couple of others:
"See No Evil" by Robert Baer
"Terrorist Hunter" By Annonymous

At least to get another perspective, if nothing else.

Quote: "Now, I'm sure you have some radical response to the fact that Bin Laden admitted on tape to the events of 9/11."

I hate to break it to you but that Osama "Confession Tape"
(Source = Pentagon) is an Obvious & Really BAD FAKE!

-> img187.exs.cx...

Hmm... Which one is the Real Bin Laden & Which one is the Fake Bin Laden?
Hint: the Fake Bin Laden is in the "Confession Tape"!

Once again Prove to me that "Al Qaeda" (I have seen it spelled with an I also BTW) Terrorists were the Hijackers of the Planes on 9/11/2001! As you have seen there was Obvious Identity Theft of Arab Moslems that were fingered as "Suspects" in 9/11 by the F.B.I. In actuality they had nothing to do with it - unless you want to say that ALL Arab Moslems are Terrorists! Now THAT seems like a Radical Position & a Convenient way to cover your tracks - the U.S. Government has already done this in their "War on Terror"!

www.apfn.org...

[edit on 25-2-2005 by Seraphim_Serpente]

[edit on 25-2-2005 by Seraphim_Serpente]

Originally posted by GatorRanger
First things first, it is you, not I, that is positing an idea that is contrary to common belief.

Believe it or not most of the world and a majority of Americans believe the Bush Junta was aware of 9/11 before it happened and no links, do your own research like I have said get up to speed then we can talk.



[edit on 25/2/2005 by Sauron]

As I said before, get "up to speed" on what, exactly? Your statement about "most of Americans believe" that the Pres. Knew about 9/11 is made as if it is fact. Let me assure you that it is not. It may be fact to you, because (this is my "theory") you spend the overwhelming amount of time on sites like these. Therefore the bulk of your reading and "research" is biased. If "most Americans" know what you say they know, why did "most Americans" vote to reelect the Pres.?
As I asked in an earlier email, say for a moment that you're right, what then? What is the motivation for all of this?

By the way, I noticed in the two replies to my post, neither of you disputed anything I said other than the video tape issue. Leading me to believe that you have absolutely NO prior understanding of how terror cells and militant Islamists function or start up. As for the video tape, let me assure you of that as well, it is real.

Originally posted by GatorRanger
As for the video tape, let me assure you of that as well, it is real.

Well I don't know what Osama and his crew were upto in those caves but it sure looks like they weren't short of food, or nose surgeons either.

No, you're right, Osama and his "crew" as you said, were probably not short on food. The man is worth somewhere in the neighborhood of twenty five million dollars. For those of you that have never been to a third world country, let me say this; twenty five million might as well be twenty five trillion. In a place like that, he has enough money to last forever.

Back to the tape: For all of you that have never been in the military, or held a government job, let me explain something to you; The "cover ups" that are reffered to in these posts such as the bin Laden tape being a forgery, would have to literally involve thousands and thousands of men and women. The men and women who work in these jobs are not part of some "massive conspiracy", they are individuals. Individuals with independant thoughts just like you. For all of these individuals to agree to be apart of the same "conspiracy" is not only a bit of a stretch, it is illogical. Think about it, wouldn't someone, somewhere down the line, crack up and tell all? Out of the thousands and thousands of CIA, FBI, NSA, and DoD personel with access to top secret info regarding bin Laden, it is absolutely against reason to think that if there was a "cover up" that at least one if not more of these people would break down and tell all. Yet, no one has. Why? Because when you reach this level, you understand that there is no "vast conspiracy" there is no "secret power" that runs everything behind the scenes. There is no "giant secret".
As to proof...here is my challenge to you: Go get a job with one of those agencies (it's not hard if you start out with the military), move up the ranks and get yourself a top secret clearance, and start working on some of these projects. This is not hard, it is not "brain surgery". And, if you still believe in one tenth of the theories you believe in now, I will give you my first born child.

Quote: "As for the video tape, let me assure you of that as well, it is real."

Are you yourself part of the U.S. Intelligence Apparatus? Any Qualifications for the above statement? Are your Eyes functioning Properly? Perhaps you should pay a visit to your Eye Doctor - get a Stronger Prescription on your Glasses & check that Tape & Screen Shot again!

I am not saying that Bin Laden is not a Terrorist - obviously he is - I would care less - actually I would be glad if his Corpse popped up in the near Future! I am just Questioning his level of Involvement in 9/11!


[edit on 25-2-2005 by Seraphim_Serpente]

Quick tip for you Seraphim, when ingaged in debates like these, it's best to refrain from using childish insults such as "You need to have your eyes checked" it just makes you look childish, and really does nothing to the other person. Statements like that are a reflection of yourself, not me.
In addition to making yourself sound immature, what you are doing is deflecting attention away from the questions I asked, and the challenge I proposed.
If I have personally insulted you in any way, I apologize, for that is not my intent. My intent is only to educate, and to help guide you in the right direction.
As to my qualifications, that is not something I would be willing to discuss on a site like this. However, the books I mentioned in one of my last posts, along with many others, are available to anyone. Most of the information needed to understand the war on terror, and the history and motives of people like bin Laden, is not "top secret". It can be obtained by the general public.
As I said before, my challenge still stands.

Quote: "questions I asked and the challenge I proposed."

So what exactly was the Question(s) & Challenge again?

www.idpz.net...

Originally posted by GatorRanger
Back to the tape:

Yes, nice new nose isn't it!

THE BIGGER THE LIE THE MORE THE PEOPLE WILL BELIEVE IT - ADOLF HITLER
HOW CAN A COUNTRY AS LARGE AS OURS BE SCARED OF SUCH A THREAT.
IF THEY NOT WORKING FOR US THERE AGAINST US, YOU CAN BET.
THEY MAY SOVERIEGN COUNTRIES BUT YOU FOLKS AT HOME FORGET.
THAT THEY ALL WANT WHAT WE´VE GOT, BUT THEY DONT KNOW IT YET"
TRA LA LA LA, TRA LA LA LA.
WERE MAKING THE WORLD SAFE FOR CAPITALISM...
IF YOU THOUGHT THE ARMY, WAS HERE PROTECTING PEOPLE LIKE YOURSELF.
WELL I´VE SOME NEWS FOR YOU WERE HERE TO DEFEND WEALTH.
TRA LA LA LA, TRA LA LA LA
WERE MAKING THE WORLD SAFE FOR CAPITALISM..

MAN, I TELL YOU, AFTER READING YOUR INTERCHANGE OF COMMNENTARIES WITH GATOR I HAD TO THINK FOR A WHILE...

Why is it that:

(1) The incumbent 'POTUS' has not held himself or anyone accountable for the biggest national security failure in US history on 9/11/2001, and would not testify under oath at any Commission hearings?

(2) The incumbent 'POTUS" has not held himself or anyone accountable for the failure of the biggest posse in US history, when he promised to get Osama bin Laden 'dead or alive', then said just 18 months later he didn't think much about Osama bin Laden these days?

They probably think, that keeping Osama bin Laden alive will result in finding more terrorists around the world. Well, this is the original plan. But what will come to surface... we may find that out.

Anyway, the 911 is a lot more than a simple terrorist attack. Nobody performed anything like this before, and nobody will be able to do anything like this to a dominant nation in the future.

Can you add this to the index, since the subject is.... how should I state it ... let's say, a core issue, not covered elsewhere

letsroll911.org...
No planes ever hit the World Trade Center towers on 9/11 - greatest HOAX ever

The War on Paperclips

I worry that I'm turning into a conspiracy theorist

AL Kennedy
Wednesday May 11, 2005
The Guardian

OK, I'm paranoid and depressed. My new government of troglodytes, murderers and spivs barely elongates the customary scream I give upon waking. What troubles me more is our rulers' inevitable recommencement of the war on terror bollocks.

To begin at what we're told is the beginning, we have 9/11 - the one in the US, not the earlier one in Chile when covert US government intervention killed thousands of innocents and handed the country to a commerce-friendly, torture-loving, far-right junta. Now if 9/11/2001 is so important, why is it so hard to find out what happened?

Article continues
The FBI, as we know, blocked all manner of investigations into the plot in the run up to its execution, whether these involved highly specific warnings from its own agents or from government sources in Afghanistan, Argentina, Britain, the Cayman Islands, Egypt, France, Germany, Israel, Italy, Jordan, Morocco and Russia.

Meanwhile, I worry why the nearest military aircraft weren't scrambled to intercept any of the hijacked flights when this is standard procedure and why, when more distant jets were finally aloft, they flew at less than half speed, thus failing to prevent the impacts at the twin towers and then, it would seem, managing to shoot down Flight 93 when its passengers may already have overcome its hijackers.

It would, of course, be easier to know what happened to Flight 93 if there weren't - according to educated estimates - three minutes of the cockpit recording missing. It would, equally, be handy to have access to the black boxes from the other crashes. Firefighters at Ground Zero have repeatedly stated that three of the four possible black boxes there were found and taken away by government agents.

And these worries are maybe less important than the ones about clear links between the Pakistani ISI, the CIA and the men named as the 9/11 hijackers. Or the mysterious inability of anyone to capture Osama bin Laden, who fled from Tora Bora, possibly being evacuated by helicopter, and then escaped to Pakistan unhindered.

So while Chinese paperclips are now made out of vital 9/11 evidence and almost every implicated party goes free, we and our controlling US interests continue fearlessly to terrorise countries unconnected with the attacks, to place permanent military bases near oil reserves and pipeline routes, to harass and murder Muslims anywhere we can, and to foment terrorist resistance at every opportunity. The UK unmasks non-existent ricin plots and threatens us with ID cards, but we can't supply our troops in Iraq with working radios or a legal causus belli.

But you'd never want to think that on 9/11/2001 covert US government intervention killed thousands of innocents and handed the country, if not the world, to a commerce-friendly, torture-loving, far-right junta. That would make you a paranoid, depressed conspiracy theorist. And, take it from me, that just wouldn't be comfortable.