FAA or 84RADES data falsified, or both.

Originally posted by Reheat
If you really believe what you're saying it's no wonder that you don't have an Airline Transport Rating,

Obviously Reheat thinks I'm perhaps Capt Bob.

I did some searching.

Whats this Reheat?




[edit on 31-7-2009 by ValkyrieWings]

Disco, my guess is that he's cashed it in for the night. He's in a box.

It's my educated guess that Andrew's would NEVER route an aircraft along the route directly adjacent to P-56 simply because they would conflict with North Departures out of KDCA. KDCA was departing to the North on the morning of 9/11 and the C-130 route as they have hypothesized would have been in direct conflict with those departures. There would have been no conflict when routing the aircraft directly over KDCA as there was altitude separation and it was easy to control.

Furthermore, there is no way a C-130 maneuvered as they have shown (which would have been directly in the KDCA departure corridor) and then followed AA 77 or the "decoy" toward the Pentagon and then have appeared in the civilian video and photographs as shown within the time constraints known. The consideration of that is absolutely asinine.

Originally posted by Reheat
Disco, my guess is that he's cashed it in for the night. He's in a box.

It's my educated guess that Andrew's would NEVER route an aircraft along the route directly adjacent to P-56 simply because they would conflict with North Departures out of KDCA.

Reheat, if the National ground stop was at 1326 (or 1329 depending who you believe, State Dept or Lynn Spencer), and GOFER06 wheels off time was 1333, how will GOFER06 conflict with DCA "Departing traffic" which cannot depart?

Let me guess, DCA was also busting the ground stop by the time GOFER06 was crossing their departure corridor? Or perhaps DCA didn't get the teletype of the ground stop by that time either.

You sure you'ree a pilot?

reply to post by ValkyrieWings


The only relevant time is when Gopher 06 received his clearance, not when he departed.

Did you get that written test paper from the same place where many "twoofers" contend Hani got his?

Originally posted by Reheat
Did you get that written test paper from the same place where many "twoofers" contend Hani got his?

Yeah, I'm sure its fake Reheat . Whatever keeps your denial alive right?

Reheat, you also said Capt Bob will never get his medical again and implied people you know will attempt to block it.
forums.randi.org...

Wrong.

You claim you want to find out where Capt Bob works so you can employ Nazi tactics to get him fired.

forums.randi.org...

You have claimed Capt Bob committed a felony of falsifying a federal document,

forums.randi.org...

Do you go to the Feds? No, you sit behind your screen continuing your Capt Bob obsession.

You have claimed numerous times Capt Bob can't get his ATP.

Obviously he possesses the aeronautical knowledge required for an ATP according to the FAA, combined with the fact that many of you now admit Capt Bob worked at an Airline for many years (well, the airline which is publicly known at least. Why would he bother to disclose any other airline when people like you want to harrass his employer?). I'm sure you know Part 121 carriers test to ATP standards for both seats. Clearly Capt Bob possesses the "stick ability" as well. Taking his practical flight test for the ATP will just be formality.

Reheat, whats next after Capt Rob shows ATP at faa.gov? You're going to try to smear him for lack of type ratings? Hmmm, maybe type ratings are coming too?

Reheat, as I said before and many here have noticed, you're all smoke.

[edit on 31-7-2009 by ValkyrieWings]

Originally posted by ValkyrieWings

Originally posted by discombobulator
... the C-130 on a departure that fearless Captain Bob, leader of Pilots for 9/11 Truth, virtually confesses is CS1.

Below quote copy/pasted from page 10 since it appears Disco didn't get it the first 3 or 4 times.

Originally posted by ValkyrieWings
Read it again Disco, perhaps slowly this time. I've also taken the liberty to bold the relevant part you're missing, and the part you conveniently omitted in your post.

Captain Bob - "Boone is arguing that since Word31 and Venus22 were issued the CS1, that it is the same reason Gofer06 was issued CS1. But, as you can see, Word31 and Venus22 first fix for route of flgiht is south and west.... thats why they were issued CS1 (well... they werent even issued CS1 either, they were just issued heading and DME which happens to be the same as CS1). While Gofer06 ffirst fix for route of flight is NORTH and West... AND east of P-56 (not south of P-56 as seen for the other aircraft routes), making it that more unlikely to issue CS1 or anything similar to Gofer06."

I'll be happy to copy/paste the above quote each time for Disco.

VW, would you care to explain to all of us why ADW would be more likely to issue the CS 1 departure in 2008 as opposed to 2001?

PCT/ADW Letter of Agreement. page 9.

reply to post by ValkyrieWings


Yes, I fully understand why you want to discuss ever other issue you can muster other than the OP.

reply to post by ValkyrieWings

Let me guess, DCA was also busting the ground stop by the time GOFER06 was crossing their departure corridor? Or perhaps DCA didn't get the teletype of the ground stop by that time either.

According to this audio, DCA Tower was unaware of the nationwide ground stop until 9:29:56 a.m. It's pretty boring but you should give it a listen, VW.

Originally posted by Reheat
reply to post by ValkyrieWings

 

Yes, I fully understand why you want to discuss ever other issue you can muster other than the OP.

Yes, I fully understand why you no longer want to discuss your ATP claims after you initially brought it up.

Originally posted by Reheat
If you really believe what you're saying it's no wonder that you don't have an Airline Transport Rating,

Originally posted by Boone 870
According to this audio, DCA Tower was unaware of the nationwide ground stop until 9:29:56 a.m. It's pretty boring but you should give it a listen, VW.

Thats interesting Boone. Thanks for posting it.

I won't bother listening now, but if you are correct, that means there would have been no crossing conflict for GOFER06 on the DCA departure corridor.

If Morningside One or similar were assigned to GOFER06, and wheels off time is 1333Z, clearly a left turn 270 to proceed "South side of the mall" (as described by O'Brien himself) would have not been in any conflict with departing DCA Traffic.

Another issue, if DCA was notified at 09:29:56, and if the NOTAM effective time is accurate with 1329Z as published by Spencer (which by the way corresponds to what most ATC members at P4T have claimed, that the tower is usually notified prettty quick of a stop, you'd be bettter to claim State Dept time is more accurate if Pinch wants to hold onto his theory that there may have been several minutes delay of information to tower), how did GOFER06 get clearance to depart and cross DCA airspace at 1333? ADW has to contact departure for "release" (when aircraft is holding short or in position on the runway, tower calls departure control or center and asks if they can "release" the aircraft, within seconds tower clears the aircraft for take off), clearly if DCA tower knew at 09:29, departure knew. How did ADW release GOFER06 at 1333Z? It doesnt take 4 mins between take off clearance and wheels up.

Anyway, have a good night. I'm off. Thanks again for posting that Boone.

reply to post by ValkyrieWings

Another issue, if DCA was notified at 09:29:56, and if the NOTAM effective time is accurate with 1329Z as published by Spencer (which by the way corresponds to what most ATC members at P4T have claimed, that the tower is usually notified prettty quick of a stop, you'd be bettter to claim State Dept time is more accurate if Pinch wants to hold onto his theory that there may have been several minutes delay of information to tower), how did GOFER06 get clearance to depart and cross DCA airspace at 1333? ADW has to contact departure for "release" (when aircraft is holding short or in position on the runway, tower calls departure control or center and asks if they can "release" the aircraft, within seconds tower clears the aircraft for take off), clearly if DCA tower knew at 09:29, departure knew. How did ADW release GOFER06 at 1333Z? It doesnt take 4 mins between take off clearance and wheels up.

Andrews Tower received departure clearance (from TYSON) for GOFER 06 at 9:28:55 according to this audio.

What TYSON didn't know is that GOFER 06 was held up due to a Cherokee crossing downfield and was held up once again for a helicopter crossing centerfield. Wash. Dep. cleared the C-130 for take off at least one minute prior to DCA being notified of the ground stop.

Why didn't Andrews hold the C-130 on the ground, you may ask?

I have two guesses: 1) they didn't receive the NOTAM on time, and 2) they didn't believe the NOTAM applied to the military.

Andrews Tower called the KRANT sector at approximately 9:38 looking for another release (VM306). That should make it obvious that they did not have the NOTAM or believed that it did not apply to them.

Link

Originally posted by Boone 870
I have two guesses: 1) they didn't receive the NOTAM on time, and 2) they didn't believe the NOTAM applied to the military.

So your whole theory is based on speculation, not Standard Operating Procedure (SOP). Great. At least you're consistent.

Well, at least we all agree that GOFER06 busted the ground stop, for either effective NOTAM time. Why he busted it appears is still speculation. Let's see if we can clear that up.

When Tyson didn't see the C-130 depart when notified of the stop (and surely they knew prior to DCA Tower, likely 30 seconds prior, do you have that tape too?), and were expecting GOFER06 (did TYSON give a Clearance Void Time/CVT? If not, they were expecting GOFER06 at time of release, I've also seen CVT's of less than 5 mins), SOP is to call ADW and ask, "Hey Where is GOFER06? Don't release him if still on the ground, we're in a ground stop." Happens every day there is a stop. Tower calls and says "GOFER06, take off clearance canceled, we've just been put into a ground stop, not sure how long, say intentions.". Listen to any large (or small) hub Tower frequency on a foggy day, (or if there is fog at common destinations from such a hub).

Your only argument left is based on a theory that TYSON, a facility serving ADW every day, figured that it was "ok" to still release the C-130 because it was "military", without discussion with the twr or thinking of the consequences should they be wrong and in violation of regs

The delay due to a "Cherokee crossing downfield" at ADW? The helo I can buy, but a "Cherokee", at ADW? Really? Uhhh, ok. I guess they were doing sightseeing after two towers attacked in NYC. Or perhaps instruction. Does ADW now have a flight school on the field?

By the way, do you happen to know why GOFER06 was allowed to continue to destination when it was a "non-essential" military flight and all others were being grounded?

Was it so he could observe the smoking hole in Shanksville in which so many of you use to support the govt story?


So, since you speculate, I'll indulge.

The C-130 was cleared to bust the ground stop so he could be vectored to pass by the "South side of the mall" to be another observer to the decoy aircraft and a possible "witness to the impact" for the mainstream media to spin. O'Brien admits himself that he did not see the "impact", but the mainstream media ignores such a claim by the pilot himself, and anonymous posters on the internet parrot such "impact claims" in a poor attempt to add to their "impact theory", ad nauseam. The C-130 is allowed to continue to destination for the same reasons in Shanksville.

Many years later a team of citizens interview witnesses on location who confirm such flight paths. After releasing such information, they come under heavy attack and ATC strips with penciled in headings which also happen to conflict with audio ATC tapes regarding distance, start to spread by anonymous internet individuals who once parroted "impact claims" allegedly made by the pilot (which in fact were never made),

They wrap up their claims with "guesses".

Good show!

[edit on 1-8-2009 by ValkyrieWings]

Originally posted by ValkyrieWings

Originally posted by Boone 870
I have two guesses: 1) they didn't receive the NOTAM on time, and 2) they didn't believe the NOTAM applied to the military.

So your whole theory is based on speculation, not Standard Operating Procedure (SOP). Great. At least you're consistent.

Well, at least we all agree that GOFER06 busted the ground stop, for either effective NOTAM time. Why he busted it appears is still speculation. Let's see if we can clear that up.

When Tyson didn't see the C-130 depart when notified of the stop (and surely they knew prior to DCA Tower, likely 30 seconds prior,

How in the hades do you know they should have known 30 seconds prior? Answer=You don't, it's speculation. What was that about speculation? I guess that's allowed when it's convenient only for you?

Originally posted by ValkyrieWings
do you have that tape too?), and were expecting GOFER06 (did TYSON give a Clearance Void Time/CVT? If not, they were expecting GOFER06 at time of release, I've also seen CVT's of less than 5 mins), SOP is to call ADW and ask, "Hey Where is GOFER06? Don't release him if still on the ground, we're in a ground stop." Happens every day there is a stop. Tower calls and says "GOFER06, take off clearance canceled, we've just been put into a ground stop, not sure how long, say intentions.". Listen to any large (or small) hub Tower frequency on a foggy day, (or if there is fog at common destinations from such a hub).

There was no clearance void time on the audio tapes, therefore this is all BS speculation on your part. Just because you want it to be true doesn't make it so.

Originally posted by ValkyrieWings
Your only argument left is based on a theory that TYSON, a facility serving ADW every day, figured that it was "ok" to still release the C-130 because it was "military", without discussion with the twr or thinking of the consequences should they be wrong and in violation of regs

And that is a very valid argument. He was not questioned about why he was airborne until after he talked to Cleveland Center. Since you like SOP's so much what was wrong with allowing US Military Flights during this period. Do you have something against military aircraft?

Originally posted by ValkyrieWings
The delay due to a "Cherokee crossing downfield" at ADW? The helo I can buy, but a "Cherokee", at ADW? Really? Uhhh, ok. I guess they were doing sightseeing after two towers attacked in NYC. Or perhaps instruction. Does ADW now have a flight school on the field?

Obviously, you've never heard of Aero Clubs. They are present on most AF Bases. They use military facilities same as other military aircraft.

There was an Aero Club at Fort Meade, Quantico, and Bolling AFB.

Originally posted by ValkyrieWings
By the way, do you happen to know why GOFER06 was allowed to continue to destination when it was a "non-essential" military flight and all others were being grounded?

He didn't. He landed somewhere in Ohio after talking with Cleveland. After all, his nefarious mission was finished after he flew over the Shanksville site after being vectored to it from about 30 miles away. Since when did you become a judge of what is essential versus non-essential. I know you think you're equivalent to a four-star general, but you nothing, but an insignificant peon.

Originally posted by ValkyrieWings
Was it so he could observe the smoking hole in Shanksville in which so many of you use to support the govt story?

I guess if he had not have reported it, it wouldn't have existed? Now, that's some unique kind of logic you've twisted to perpetuate the twoofer myth of some kind of nefarious involvement of the C-130 with the Shanksville crash.

Originally posted by ValkyrieWings
So, since you speculate, I'll indulge.

At least you're consistent.

Originally posted by ValkyrieWings
The C-130 was cleared to bust the ground stop so he could be vectored to pass by the "South side of the mall" to be another observer to the decoy aircraft and a possible "witness to the impact" for the mainstream media to spin. O'Brien admits himself that he did not see the "impact", but the mainstream media ignores such a claim by the pilot himself, and anonymous posters on the internet parrot such "impact claims" in a poor attempt to add to their "impact theory", ad nauseam. The C-130 is allowed to continue to destination for the same reasons in Shanksville.

More importantly, he did not witness a pullup and flyover of a huge honkin' 757 pulling up in plan form view, which would have been impossible to miss.

Originally posted by ValkyrieWings
Many years later a team of citizens interview witnesses on location who confirm such flight paths. After releasing such information, they come under heavy attack and ATC strips with penciled in headings which also happen to conflict with audio ATC tapes regarding distance, start to spread by anonymous internet individuals who once parroted "impact claims" allegedly made by the pilot (which in fact were never made),

Nothing is needed for the Idiot Investigation Team to be discredited, except to point their convoluted, stupid theory for which there is no physical evidence and no witness to a "flyover". Witnesses are notoriously unreliable and these are no exception. All of the evidence indicates they were simply wrong, no matter how much the "Internet mouths" try to spin their nonsense.

The C-130 was a small bit player and not necessary at all to know that AA 77 crashed into the Pentagon.

Originally posted by ValkyrieWings
They wrap up their claims with "guesses".

Speaking of guesses, without a flyover witness what do you guess happened to that aircraft that reputedly flew a different flight path than what has been proven?

Good show!

[edit on 1-8-2009 by Reheat]

[edit on 1-8-2009 by Reheat]

Unfortunately Reheat, I cannot quote you as you used up every single letter of text,

However.

How in the hades do you know they should have known 30 seconds prior?

I don't. But it was definitely less than a minute. You disagree? 30 seconds seemed reasonable, Even if it were 5 seconds, GOFER06 still busted the ground stop when TYSON knew of it less than a minute after giving them the release (according to Spencers NOTAM Effective time).

There was no clearance void time on the audio tapes,

Thanks for letting me know. That means Wash. Dep. was expecting GOPHER06 immediately. Do you know how a clearance void time works? Here's an example.

(paraphrased)
"GOPHER06 is cleared, clearance void if not off in 5 (10, 20...etc) mins from now, if not off by such time, please contact [us] to let us know no later than xxxxZ".

As you can see, since there wasn't a CVT given, they were expecting him at time of release. If a CVT was given, they wouldn't be paying much attention till the void time. But considering TYSON was notified of a nationwide ground stop less than a minute after giving the release, and no sign of GOFER06 in the minutes following, hmmm, someone screwed the pooch, or perhaps it was intentional?

The rest of your post is mostly personal attacks.

Thanks for letting us know there isn't any CVT though.


Edit: By the way Boone, how did you determine times for DCA Ground Stop notification and TYSON Release? It is just based on audio time sequence from start? Or do you have an official govt document/transcript with time stamps? TIA.

[edit on 2-8-2009 by ValkyrieWings]

reply to post by ValkyrieWings


You are still simply spewing BS and speculating in an attempt to impress someone with your knowledge.

It has not been established that the Ground Stop issued at @ 9:30 applied to military aircraft. TYSON would not make the determination if it was an essential flight anyway. That decision would be made by the military and TYSON obviously had no reason to question why a military flight was departing Andrews. Several aircraft departed Andrews after the Ground Stop, so this was no big deal at all. It is only your paranoid delusions that make this suspicious. The C-130 was a minor bit player in all of this and he was simply doing his job by flying back to his home station after a mission to the Caribbean area.

You have no idea what kind of communication occurred between Tyson and Andrews Tower regarding Gofer 06's IFR release. Since no void time was issued there may not have been any reason to question why Gofer delayed TO to align his INS.

You are simply making up crap to play to the delusional ideas of idiots to include your own delusional garbage.

[edit on 2-8-2009 by Reheat]

Reheat, is it possible for you to get through one post without personally attacking someone else?

Anyway,

Originally posted by Reheat
It has not been established that the Ground Stop issued at @ 9:30 applied to military aircraft.

It was applied to all aircraft. It doesn't say applied to "All civilian", It doesn't say "All Aircraft excluding military", it says "ALL, Aircraft regardless of Destination" (unless of course you feel a C-130 is not an "aircraft"?), and it wasn't at 0930. It was 0929 (according to a post you made from Spencers NOTAM, embedded image below). Please stop trying to move the goal posts.



It seems some people want to just hand waive the urgency of the unprecedented NOTAM directing ALL flights grounded under an emergency, to ALL Destinations, also hand waiving the fact that MSP is primarily a civilian airport, not exclusive military as is ADW. How was TYSON to know that MSP would even accept GOPHER06? They didn't, that is why there is SOP.

GOFER06, a cargo plane with a destination that is primarily civilian (not even a fighter with authorization for a mission), busted the ground stop according to the above NOTAM. Whether it was intentional or not is up for the reader to decide.

TYSON would not make the determination if it was an essential flight anyway. That decision would be made by the military.

Agreed, TYSON would normally follow the NOTAM, called back ADW since GOFER06 wasn't 'handed off' nor any radar target observed, and canceled the release. Then if someone needed the C-130 to depart, they would have obtained authorization via the military to depart during a ground stop. There is no reason to not follow SOP in this circumstance unless the C-130 needed to be at a certain place at a certain time and depart exactly at that time.

Reheat, 0929 means 0929, not 0930. "All" means all.

Who exactly is the one "making stuff up?"

The rest of your post is once again mostly personal attacks.

[edit on 2-8-2009 by ValkyrieWings]

reply to post by ValkyrieWings

It was 0929 (according to a post you made from Spencers NOTAM, embedded image below). Please stop trying to move the goal posts.

Not to quibble over a pesky minute, but again you are desperate to muddy the situation with minutuae.

The AC was issued at 1329, but when you read the body of the report it is effective at 1330. It's there, in your own post, the evidence YOU bring.

AND, you don't expect that not everyone SAW the telex immediately, do you??? Couple of minutes more, as the significance sank in.....

adding, perhaps this ATCSCC website will help you, and other, understand.

[edit on 2 August 2009 by weedwhacker]

reply to post by ValkyrieWings


I used the @ symbol to indicate about as I also used the word at in addition to the @ symbol. If you'd prefer I'll use the ~ in the future, but I suspect you won't like that either.

I've hand waving nothing away at all. The FACT is that Gofer 06 was released and flew. All you're doing is speculating in an attempt to allude to some nefarious purpose by inventing SOP where there is none and interpreting the NOTAM literally as if you know what was occurring in the background at the time.

When that NOTAM was issued it was unprecedented, so any SOP you specify is simply your invention. The controllers were very busy trying to do a multitude of things in a short period of time. Based on the tapes it's quite obvious they were extremely busy attempting to recover airborne aircraft. There were also helicopters launching all over the area, should they have called someone to get extraordinary approval for those too? Who should they have called to determine if Gofer 06 was really authorized to fly or not? Hell, they didn't even know who to call to request Interceptors, so why would they be expected to know who to call about the C-130. Are you also suggesting that they should have called someone about the NEACP or fighter launch? Whether you like it or not the military is treated differently by the FAA and it's not surprising they didn't question the launch of a military aircraft particularly during a National Emergency.

I'm sure that a sky hook exists over MSP, so that the C-130 could hook up to it when MSP refused him permission to land.

The C-130 flight is really inconsequential and not very important at all except for your CT. In that CIT/you devised a stupid flight path and then made up all of your CT surrounding the "no plane" BS at the Pentagon it is crucial to your continued delusion.

You have very few avenues left to argue this issue. You have FAILED miserably in that ATC tapes and Radar have proven you wrong, so all you can do is try to invent SOP and pretend that you have some sort of intimate knowledge of what the system was doing at the time of the NOTAM and how the controllers were coping with what amounted to an nearly impossible task. They had bigger "fish to fry" than that C-130, but, again, it is crucial to your contrived delusions, so you persist. Even if you contend the ATC tapes and Radar are fake, you also have to accuse the civilian sourced video and photographs as fake, as well. You're in an inescapable box, bubba.

Keep on posting, it's fun to smack you down......

[edit on 2-8-2009 by Reheat]

To elaborate a little further, so those who want to learn are not deceived by the neophyte aviator with a delusion......

Standard Operating Procedures for an Air Traffic Controller are not cast in stone. Because of the dynamic nature of the job, priorities shift depending upon the tasks at hand. It is quite obvious from listening to the numerous tapes available that both the Center and Terminal Controllers were overwhelmed on 9/11. They faced a nearly impossible task of recovering the thousands of aircraft airborne when the National Ground Stop was implemented. They had to deal with pilots arguing about going to this or that location to facilitate passenger or Company convenience and they coped with it to provide the safe recovery of all of those aircraft without incident or accident.

They will ALWAYS place priority on the handling of airborne aircraft before handing those on the ground for obvious reasons. So, for whatever reason the C-130 departed Andrews AFB within a few minutes of the National Ground Stop on what was perhaps a non-essential flight it is totally understandable by rational people.

As I said earlier it is inconsequential anyway. The pilot was not aware of the events that had occurred in NYC because he had been planning and at the aircraft preparing for departure. He received his IFR Clearance prior to the Ground Stop and the only reason he was slightly delayed in departing is that he stopped to align his INS at the end of the runway. Otherwise, he would have already been airborne well prior to the Ground Stop.

The only reason there is anyone here arguing about it is that the wrong flight path for the C-130 is crucial to the delusions of CIT and pffft. Otherwise it would not be an issue at all.

Here's some more confirmation that ADW didn't receive the NOTAM on time or believed that it did not apply to them.

At 9:36:49 Navy Ops called Andrews Tower and asked, "y'all haven't suspended any departures or arrivals or any flights or anything yet have you?"

To which Andrews replied, "Ahh, were going to know in about 20 minutes."

Audio link


VW, the only leg you have left to stand on is your personal belief that TYSON should've recalled GOFER06's departure clearance. Do you have any proof that Washington Departure received the NOTAM before the C-130 departed?