FAA or 84RADES data falsified, or both.

reply to post by weedwhacker


I'll see if this link to the H12 Chart for the area works:
skyvector.com...

NO, since I don't know how to take a screen shot, no luck. But, you guys can find it yourselves.

Here's how I would jot down the GOFER06 clearance, my shorthand:

MSP LT270/3D RV BUFFR / J518 / IHD x8W@3 exp240 18.95 /2427

[edit on 31 July 2009 by weedwhacker]

Originally posted by discombobulator
So you're basically telling me that the audio tapes are faked.

Nice argument!

Come back with a real one next time.

Debunkers used to accuse Pilots For Truth of fabricating the NTSB Data and animation and demanded contact information and cover letter of FOIA.

Where's yours for the ATC Audio provided by "Boone"?

Originally posted by weedwhacker
MSP LT270/3D RV BUFFR / J518 / IHD x8W@3 exp240 18.95 s2427

Anyone want to post the numerous ATC strips found on the first pages of this thread for Weedwacker? I'm getting lazy.

Then Weedwacker can tell us where "3D" is in the ATC strip.

reply to post by ValkyrieWings

Weedwacker, you claim to be a pilot, how many times you update your Jepps in a 7 year period?

For the majority of my life since I got my Instrument Rating the revisions were every two weeks. We always were relieved when the really fat envelope were mostly charts.

But, as you may know, most airline pilots let them buildup, and do a bunch in one sitting, maybe once every couple of months. Of course, if we smelled a Ramp Check in the offing, we'd update fast. ( Not that I ever did that!!! ) Besides, in today's cockpits, the FMC database is more accurate, anyway.

Ask your Jetblue buddies if they have their little laptops yet...when I retired that's what I was hearing, and MY company was thinking about it, too. But, really, I didn't mind revisions. Gave us something to do.

In 2005 the revision cycle was extended --- fewer, I think it was something like every three-four weeks. Saves paper, and since Jeppesen is owned by a big corporation now, it's all about costs. Of course, I doubt they lowered their subscription fees. AND, BTW, I had NEVER seen so many typos and mistakes before, not until they were taken over (sold out?). I got so sick of, say, the LAX 10-9 being changed for THREE revision cycles in a row, because of the typos. Usually, it was something stupid thing on the other side, 10-9A, some typo. (Yes, I was sometimes that bored, because I'd see the same damn page every time. THAT was just an example...)

Satisfied???

Why would you do such updates?

Oh, come on. I'm not your personal CFII.

When and why would an "Efffective date" be changed?

See above.

Now we'll see if Weedwacker is really a pilot

Sure, we will. NOW, I have question. Pull out an approach plate, and look at the bottom, where you see small print and the letters 'rev' and numbers.

WHAT does that mean? AND, don't go peeking in the Introduction for the answer....

[tagging]

[edit on 31 July 2009 by weedwhacker]

reply to post by ValkyrieWings

Then Weedwacker can tell us where "3D" is in the ATC strip.

Excuse me? AND, FOUR laughy smilys?? Aw, that's so cute. Add: ( AJ???? )

Tell me, if you can't read or comprehend MY personal shorthand, then what business is it of yours?

WHAT do YOU think the 'D' means. Hmmm?

Listen to the clearance, and you'll figure it out.


[edit on 31 July 2009 by weedwhacker]

Originally posted by weedwhacker
For the majority of my life since I got my Instrument Rating the revisions were every two weeks.

So, Weedwacker, being that you update "every two weeks", would you trust a 2001 procedure (especially if it was published prior to 9.11) if you found an updated chart with an effective date of 2008 in your stack of "envelopes"?

What would your POI say if he found you using a chart that was 7 years old?

(BTW, fix your quote tags if you are able, it may confuse the reader)

Originally posted by weedwhacker
Listen to the clearance, and you'll figure it out.

I have listened to the clearance. Clearly you haven't looked at the ATC Strip in which the clearance is generated. Let us know where you find "Within 3 DME" on this strip which was provided numerous times on this very thread.

(3rd time asked)

reply to post by ValkyrieWings


OH, BTW. For the GOFER06 clearance, if you wish to find the BUFFR intersection, I can help you out.

Look at the 'High' Enroute Chart (it's on H12 at SkyVector).

BUFFR is the BAL303 radial at 47miles and the AML 357 radial, 32 DME.

SO, let's see...it's essentially north and west of KADW. They were sent West, for a vector to BUFFR. Of course, since they had INS, they might have been given direct BUFFR later, by Center, or even direct IHD. OR, their mission and destination was changed completely. Anyone know?

Originally posted by weedwhacker
reply to post by ValkyrieWings

 

OH, BTW. For the GOFER06 clearance, if you wish to find the BUFFR intersection, I can help you out.

BUFFR

You can plug the lat/long from the above link into Google Earth and get the same as the diagram here.


Weedwacker, ever heard of K.I.S.S? Google it.

reply to post by ValkyrieWings

...where you find "Within 3 DME" on this strip...

Irrelevant. That's just the strip. The controllers know the sector boundary location, to the north of KADW. The 'within 3 DME' doesn't have to be on the strip, when the facility issuing the clearance has their own procedures. I'm not a controller, but at least I know that much.

reply to post by ValkyrieWings

What would your POI say if he found you using a chart that was 7 years old?

What sort of nonsense is in this post??? You asked if I'd use a procedure from 2001??? NO. But, why did you ask that? It's a silly question. It has NOTHING TO DO with 11 September, 2001. In fact, it is so outlandish, I jsut cannot understand your point in asking!!

I mean, are you implying that the GOFER06 crew had IFR charts form 2008??? Time travel???

reply to post by ValkyrieWings


More silly smilys??

Well, thanks for the 'AirNav' linky, never heard of that source before.

SO, "Valkyrie" who just signed up today....welcome as a "new" member to ATS! I'm sure your contributions to the Board will be as valuable in the future as the first ones you've posted on this thread.

Oh, and I'm impressed by your knowledge of BB code. I'm not that much of a computer nerd; took me over a year to learn all the tricks. AND you, you know it right from the gate!! Bravo!

Originally posted by weedwhacker
Irrelevant. That's just the strip. The controllers know the sector boundary location, to the north of KADW. The 'within 3 DME' doesn't have to be on the strip, when the facility issuing the clearance has their own procedures. I'm not a controller, but at least I know that much.

So if the "controllers know their boundary", why is "TL270" penciled in?

Weedwacker, you're reaching.


By the way Weedwacker, if a Standard Instrument Departure (SID) is assigned, such as Camp Springs One (CS1), would that show up on the ATC Strip? The STAR is there, but no SID.

Those who support the 9/11 Commission version of events claim GOFER06, WORD31, and VENUS22 were assigned Camp Spring One SID. Why is it not on the ATC Strip?

Originally posted by weedwhacker
I mean, are you implying that the GOFER06 crew had IFR charts form 2008???

No, but your cohorts are attempting to imply procedures effective in 2008 were the same as in 2001.

Thanks for your reply.

reply to post by ValkyrieWings


NEITHER SID was 'assigned', was it???
BUT, irrespective of a SID assignment, the initial altitude is ALWAYS repeated in the clearance, as a double-check. No SID specified, so the controller read the restriction, the "270 within 3 DME" restriction. It's likely so standard that they say it every time for a RW 01 departure. People are creatures of habit, and controllers especially.

Really, this entire thing has been beaten to death already, any pilot with any experience can see it for what it is --- a silly windmill that someone wants to continue tilting at.

reply to post by ValkyrieWings


OHhhhhh......I see now. We're (you're) assuming that the SIDs may have been different, in 2001?

Well, what if they were?

WHAT IF --- there WAS no 'Camp Springs One' in 2001???

WHAT IF --- there was no 'Morningside One' in 2001???

See, "Cap'n Bob" (or someone) at PffT were the ones insisting on the Norhtbound departure, originally, for GOFER06. THEY pointed to Morningside, as I've been reading. Is this an incorrect interpretation??

You see, IF there was no SID in 2001, then the "Left turn 270 within 3 DME" in the clearance makes even MORE sense!!!

Furthermore, note the names of the procedures. They both are number "One". Do you understand the significance of that? I won't give it away, will see if you know.

edit: here's a helpful hint:

From Dulles, a STAR, the 'COATT FOUR' -- sorry it's not a Jepp plate, but I expect you can read it??





[edit on 31 July 2009 by weedwhacker]

Originally posted by weedwhacker
NEITHER SID was 'assigned', was it???

Why would ATC take an aircraft south of P-56 to circle them almost due north/northeast (west of P-56), when their direct route of flight to first fix (BUFFR) crosses well east of P-56 and can have them on their way?

s1.zetaboards.com...

Waste gas? More money for the oil companies?

Study the above diagram/link thoroughly Weedwacker. You say you're a real pilot. I'm beginning to believe it. I will believe it more if you come up with the right answer after studying the diagram.

Hay VW, or whatever you moniker is today. This is a silly argument and you very well should know it. On the other hand, considering the source.....

Gopher 06 was issued a clearance to fly 270 degrees within 3 DME of ADW, he acknowledged that clearance. The ATC tapes and the radar tapes indicate that's what he flew. All of this procedural crap you're throwing about is just an attempt to muddy the waters. ALL of the crap you're bringing up is nothing more than a smoke screen to muddy the waters and is pure and simple hogwash.

You were wrong originally and you are wrong now and all of the evidence proves it.

You seem to imply that all pilots should send someone to the tower to check the strip and make sure the Clearance Delivery Controller is reading it correctly.

One thing is for sure, you are providing some good laughs at the stupidity of continuing to argue about something so obvious. And you wonder why you have zero credibility and no one with of any consequence pays attention to your crap?

[edit on 31-7-2009 by Reheat]

reply to post by ValkyrieWings

You say you're a real pilot.

Why, thank you.

I'm still having my doubts about you

Do you understand the concepts of 'sectors' in the airspace control sturcture? Know about LOAs that may exist between various facilities? (Or, not exist...)

Honestly, if you can't understand why the airspace system and air traffic control work as they do, then I certainly can't help you from this end of a computer screen. Perhaps additonal one-on-one tutoring?

edit....AWW....I'm just a sucker for cute smilys and big brown puppy dog eyes...

Here, looky:


That's the NEWARK SEVEN. Even if your destination is Boston, or London, when they're using RW 4, you turn to a heading of 290. It's a pain in the bum. It's the way it is. It sucks.

ARRIVING for RW 22 from the West? We've joked and called THAT the "OPEC ONE" arrival. It is grueling, boring and wasteful. Looks benign, on paper:



"Cross SWEET at 7,000, expect vectors to Runway 22 left". Normal, but once TRACON gets you, it's headings and altitudes, 1,000 feet down in steps at a time, all while the controller tries to slot everyone in to line 'em up, and accomodate the arrivals from the North too. Direct distance from SWEET to KEWR? Just over 30 miles. FROM SWEET? At least 15-18 minutes, droning at 210Kt and 7000, then 060 HDG, 6000 'slow to 180'....and so on, and so on. WASTE of fuel!! Every day.





[edit on 31 July 2009 by weedwhacker]

Originally posted by weedwhacker
Well, what if they were?

WHAT IF --- there WAS no 'Camp Springs One' in 2001???

WHAT IF --- there was no 'Morningside One' in 2001???

Try reading the first 5 pages of this thread, then ask Boone why he insists the aircraft were assigned "Camp Springs One".

He'll dig up the effective dates for you.

Did you figure out that the destination was posted on this thread yet?


Reheat, go back to sleep.

[edit on 31-7-2009 by ValkyrieWings]