Why Ghosts are not Real

reply to post by Soulstone


Is it possible that ghosts are both real and unreal? They could be mental events, created not with physical stimuli, but nonphysical stimuli acting directly on the brain. This stimuli could originate from an independent, conscious source existing outside our plane and creating it through entanglement. The brain interprets the signals and generates the ghost. In other words, the ghost is real, but only manifested in the mind of the observer. But in classical sense, since it has no observable state, it is not real. I think a ghost may be like software. It has no existence without a computer, a medium through which its instructions are interpreted.

Originally posted by Anonymous ATS
reply to post by Soulstone

 

Is it possible that ghosts are both real and unreal? They could be mental events, created not with physical stimuli, but nonphysical stimuli acting directly on the brain. This stimuli could originate from an independent, conscious source existing outside our plane and creating it through entanglement. The brain interprets the signals and generates the ghost. In other words, the ghost is real, but only manifested in the mind of the observer. But in classical sense, since it has no observable state, it is not real. I think a ghost may be like software. It has no existence without a computer, a medium through which its instructions are interpreted.

That is a very novel hypothesis. This is what I'm talking about, we have to be open to any possibility. If you are so close minded to believe that strange phenomenon are without a doubt ghosts without proof that they are, you are ensuring that you will seek evidence that only supports your presupposed assumption.

I lived in a home for 8 years where ALL members of my family were traumatized by something paranormal. If I had never lived in that house I would be skeptical because everywhere else I have been located I have not had one single unexplained event. Every time I think back to those days I get chills and such cold feelings. I have a dozen + stories of actual physical disruptions in my life from an entity/ghost w/e you want to call it. Imagine sitting on your bed and having something underneath you be pressing up every second with a good force, while having your family cat be scared to death in the other corner of the room looking under your bed. Things like that NEVER leave your head, never. So you can say ghost don't exist because I would feel the same in someones situation who hasn't had the experience. It definitely makes you ponder life, and not everything has to "haunt" or w/e lol. Maybe there are other planes of existence after death or levels. Well all know someday, boy that's grim sounding

[edit on 21-9-2008 by Sikmike620]

Originally posted by Soulstone
Well all this topic has become was a debate.

I asked questions that now appears can't be answered. All we have is theories and knowledge that is trivial because none of us have actually experienced death.

The thread started as a series of questions. There have been some good theoretical responses. I was foolish to have asked for truth in a matter that none here including myself can conceive. Then it moved onto whether or not what people are seeing is ghosts. Instead other theories were presented. Some neglected them and stuck by their beliefs others accepted the possibility. But what I've realized is in the end it does not matter. NONE of US have had the first hand experience.

I still don't think that there is a life after death which is scary especially since I'm undergoing an operation tomorrow. I remain open minded though that there is that possibility of an existence after the time of you are physically deceased. I will not overrule it. How can I?

I will probably not be returning to this topic as I have to prepare for some events that may be coming. I need to center myself and stay away from the forums for awhile.

God Bless all who have posted here and the other members of ATS. The truth seekers. Perhaps I will see you all again, perhaps not.

Til next time.....

I have no beliefs about what happens after death, so I can only share information from my work and experiences.

We've all heard of "going into the light", and if you make it that far, don't get yourself caught up in some self-created belief-system construction.. waylayed by lower-intentioned disembodied beings, or just plain stuck close in the 3D of earth... then you do go into the Light.

The light is simply an 'avenue' to the top most layer of the Astral. Monroe called this Focus 27. I know it as the place where the Akasha is, among other interesting things. (Akashic Record/Hall of Records, etc)

Once I take someone over into the light, usually someone who has been stuck close to this 3D, we come to what I call the Arrival Zone... and it is here where people reporting NDE's will meet their relative, or other being telling them to go back.

Everyone so far has had someone or something waiting for them at the Arrival Zone, as an example... people who suicided have been met by a "medical team" because that action is seen as a symptom of illness, while most others have been met by a significant person from their immediate incarnation. This is to help them transition in waking up from "the dream of life"

To see someone wake up is beautiful and sometimes comical too. As their memory begins to get clear, they recall the arrival zone, the feeling of that level of the astral... and you can watch as they begin to shine more brightly again, as if a veil is lifting off them.. which of course it is.

From there, most do their version of life-review, then decide what they would like to do afterwards. Many have stayed on for a while to work in 'jobs' suited to their desires and preferences... for instance, one I know currently works with abused children when they arrive.

What is important here, is:- you are the one who chooses... nothing is forced upon you as just deserts for your life's actions. You have the power of choice in every moment, always. In fact, you do not even "have to" return here!!! You can do whatever you choose, when you choose.

Wonderful isn't it.

Be well

reply to post by Tayesin


That's a load of guesswork there!

The 'light' people speak of moving to can be explained by what the brain goes through when it starts to shut down. To ignore that explanation and start claiming it's due to more fantastic causes is abject irrationality. There are rational explanations for the whole host of experiences people have when they die.

We are meat and water... nothing more, nothing less. Souls are a religious invention to give purpose to the reward/punishment system in place for after you die, dependent on your living quality.

It is so sad to think that so many believe that it's just "lights out" when we die. So there is no heaven, no hell, no nothing. We just exist for the sake of existing, for a very short while, and anything we see, smell, hear, touch and taste is just a figment of our imaginations because there is no man made scientific proof. Wow, what a concept. Makes ya kinda want to just end it now cause life is just plain boring.

reply to post by intrigued2


If someone has chosen to not believe in any kind of afterlife or reincarnation, then that is absolutely their right. Those who believe should not begrudge them for it, just as those who do not believe in the existence of the spirit or soul should not begrudge those who do believe.

It is my personal belief that we are more than just "meat and water" as someone has said, and I have had too many experiences that cannot be explained by normal means to convince me otherwise. I also have kept an open mind about such possibilities since I was a small child. Not everyone does, and that is their prerogative. For others, that is not the case and they have not seen anything to convince them otherwise.

I don't view anyone whose beliefs in this regard are different from my own as foolish or inferior, despite the usual response that I am either delusional or intellectually limited for my own beliefs. A lack of tolerance for one's beliefs is demonstration of a small mind in either case. We all must believe what we believe, and I do not feel it is the duty of anyone to convince another that they are incorrect in their own beliefs. In these matters, those who have had experiences cannot make someone believe, just as those who have not had them cannot convince someone that they cannot believe. I do however believe that sharing actual reasons for your beliefs in a civilized discourse can help both sides at least see the possibility of the other side's truth.

It is a personal choice to follow your path, and I wish you all well on whatever path your life takes you. I only ask that you open your mind to the possibilities presented by another's beliefs, and that goes for both sides of the argument, instead of descending into simply assuming the other is foolish or irrational or naive.

*Edited to add the need for an exchange of ideas on both sides.

[edit on 9/22/2008 by TheDemonHunter]

reply to post by Soulstone


There is a program on National Geo right now(~7pmEST). Is It Real? and the subject is 'ghosts'. Proposes many hypotheses on the subject. Many of the same posted here.

Originally posted by dave420
reply to post by Tayesin

 

That's a load of guesswork there!

The 'light' people speak of moving to can be explained by what the brain goes through when it starts to shut down. To ignore that explanation and start claiming it's due to more fantastic causes is abject irrationality. There are rational explanations for the whole host of experiences people have when they die.

Hi Dave,
I understand what you are saying, but my point is this: I personally take the deadies over into the Light... I am a living being, I am aware and my brain is not shutting down when I do this work.

Therefore, what I experience when doing so cannot be irrational, as I have been doing this work for many years. I am not a kook, nor am I a new ager, nor religionist. I do what I do, I know what I know. No amount of rationalization by people who have no experience of these things can explain any of it to any degree of truth or clarity.

If anything, those who rationalize what they have never experienced are more likely to be suffering from living in an the consensus unreality.

No offence meant.

reply to post by Tayesin


Have you ever told a psychiatrist this?

Looking back on it, I even find it foolish that I thought tulpas existed. Such things simply don't exist.

[edit on 5-10-2008 by Soulstone]

come on we are all entitiled to our opinions and beliefs

I myself do believe in ghosts/spirits as have witnessed on quite a few occassions..and am actually working where there is something in situ at present....and not my imagination or state of mind,because it has been witnessed by other people even when I am not present and not just co workers people who have been in situ who have never been there before..

As I have said before I am open minded and for whatever reasons that it maybe that causes these occurences to happen..... am open to other reasons that these may exist....goverment,aliens etc.....I have no explaination as to what is going on where I work at present,but all I can say is that it is "real" as we are all experiancing it.....

reply to post by special


"Real" doesn't equal "ghosts". As I've stated repeatedly through this thread, is it possible for people to misunderstand what they're looking at.

Belief in something without evidence is irrational. You, by definition, are being irrational.

reply to post by dave420


well, when i was 9, i made a deal with my aunt that if either of us ever died, the deceased would contact the living for validatin of an afterlife.

3 years later my aunt was very ill with cancer. She was going through chemo, and things were not looking good.

The night she passed, i had a dream, a dream about blue frogs in a very colourful pond. The dream was significant for me because it was the first time i had ever dream't in colour. I instantly told my mother of the dream as soon as i woke.

When i described it to her, she thought it was strange and that it might be symbolic. So she looked up what blue frogs & colourful surroundings meant in a dream book my grandmother had. It said it was a sign that something good was going to happen.

I was happy, because the most important thing in my life at the time
was my aunt. I thought it was a sign she would get better. But about a half hour after i had woken, we received a call from my uncle informing us that my aunt passed away in the middle of the night.

I was severely distraught for hours; especially since the dream previously had my hopes up.

the next time my uncle came to my house he had something in his hand.

"Your aunt wanted me to give this to you as a gift when she passed."

in his hand was a porcelain blue frog.

have fun explaining that.

[edit on 10/7/2008 by JPhish]

Originally posted by dave420
reply to post by special

 

"Real" doesn't equal "ghosts". As I've stated repeatedly through this thread, is it possible for people to misunderstand what they're looking at.

Belief in something without evidence is irrational. You, by definition, are being irrational.

Ok, ok I am irrational I am writing this from a padded cell in my straight jacket!!!!ha,ha.ha
Sorry, but there is something going on where I work and they are real experiances,not tricks or mind games too many people witness it...As I said before we are all entitled to opinions and in my opinion until proven otherwise I think ghost/spirit...as this is "my" belief it could be anything I have said before I am open minded...but at this moment in time this is my interpretation as to what it could be that is occurring and we are all entitiled to say what we believe.....

reply to post by Soulstone


You are ill informed on much of what is known about the phenomena.

1. Not all people who die remain as ghosts. so no the world should not be full of ghosts.

2. Not all spirits are restricted to the place they died unless their unresoved business involves that place. As the victims of 9/11 are less concerned with how they died than what has happened to the people they left behind their spirits would not remain there but instead be among those they loved in life.

3. There are animal spirits, there are numerous stories of ghostly animals , however they are much more rare as animals do not have the same sense of social responsibility humans do.. thus rarely have unresolved issues preventing them from moving on.

4. Until you have watched a door knob turning back and forth while it was open and no one touching it.. you cannot tell someone that they are imagining things. Especially when several people witnessed the event.

I appreciate your attempt at logical debunking here, but you lacked some basic facts that needed to be addressed.

Evidence for ghosts can be found in EVPs, but like any evidence presented for things that you don't understand, it is disregarded, and cast aside as something else, because people refuse to accept it due to it not falling into their line of thought. I have evidence of a ghost. Two audio sources, recording at the same exact time. One piece has a distinct, yet disconnected voice that appears over our voices. The other audio source does not have the voices. The two device have different frequency ranges. The voices were picked up on the device that had the wider range. The location is a place of known activity in our area.
Evidence is there, people just need to drop the egos and realize that they're not as smart as they'd like to believe they are. We also have a Class A EVP from Waverly Hills that was captured that speaks quite clearly and says, "Hey,... I've been doing this a long time." I will eventually get them up on Youtube when I have the time. But it won't matter, because someone will say that they are fake, or that someone recorded their own voice. People have these walls they put up whenever something is presented to them that they have been trained to deny.

[edit on 7-10-2008 by Oreyeon]

Kudos goes out to both NephraTari and Oreyeon!!! I couldn't have said it better myself but thank you for your insightful responses to those who don't have open minds but continue to challenge those who do. Apparently trolls are considered to be mythical creatures but scientific proof has it that they reside in certain forum threads.

reply to post by intrigued2


Hi intrigued2,

Theres an old saying I love: "Keep an open mind - but no so open your brain falls out"


Now let me reiterate I'm one of those irrational believers whose brain some may say fell out a long time ago.

I do however thank posters who challenge, and challenge vermently. They challenge those beliefs...and I kinda see that as a good thing.

Some may believe because they have experienced, and that may be proof enough for them. Others believe or disbelieve due to other forms of proof. And again I don't think theres anything wrong with that...as ultimately belief is a personal thing, one that we tend to make a personal choice on what we consider *proof* to be.

There is one 'challenger' here whom I honestly respect - Dave420 (hope you don't mind me mentioning your name Dave, please know it is with a genuine respect).
Dave420 and I have had a few 'circular' exchanges here...the demand for proof, the response of 'ain't gonna happen' etc etc...not a whole lot of ground gets gained - but he challenges. He makes you reflect upon what you believe and why...he makes you examine it...well, he does that for me anyway...and again I think thats a good thing. So I honestly thank him for that.

Its a bit like setting fire to the undergrowth to clear out the weeds and dead-wood and make way for new shoots to sprout. The wind that blows the chaff from the grain so to speak.

If those challenges cause you to seek deeper then hey, might well be a beneficial thing...


...just my opinion anyway...


Peace.