Christianity is Imploding!

reply to post by MatrixProphet

Oh you think so! No sir, I believe you are incorrect. The GT has already started quite a while ago!

Really, when was it "quite a while ago" when Israel became a nation? I thought that happened in 1967 when the Jews captured Jerusalem.

When did all sea creatures perish and the oceans became blood red? When was every city shaken to the ground?

When was the antichrists 200 million man army from the east destroyed?

When was 4/6 of the world's population killed?

odd, you claim we have been in the GT for "quite some time", but I think if these events would have happened we'd have known about it.

Regarding the Title Alpha & Omega;

This is another mistake many trinitarians make, failing to properly identify the speaker. It is all too clear once the context and the surrounding verses are considered.
First of all, the title Alpha & Omega does not apply to Jesus in the three occurrances in Revelation at all.

This expression, "Alpha & Omega occurs three times in the book of Revelation.

The first one is at Rev 1:8 where it is plain that title is given to God Almighty. Not Jesus

8 “I am the Al′pha and the O·me′ga,” says Jehovah God, “the One who is and who was and who is coming, the Almighty.”
NWT

8I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
KJV

8I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, says the Lord God, He Who is and Who was and Who is to come, the Almighty (the Ruler of all).
Amplified Bible.

Although the preceding verse speaks of Christ Jesus, it is clear that in verse 8 the application of the title is to “the Almighty” God. In this regard Barnes’ Notes on the New Testament (1974) observes: “It cannot be absolutely certain that the writer meant to refer to the Lord Jesus specifically here . . . There is no real incongruity in supposing, also, that the writer here meant to refer to God as such.”

The next occurance of this phrase is Rev 21:6

” 6 And he said to me: “They have come to pass! I am the Al′pha and the O·me′ga, the beginning and the end. To anyone thirsting I will give from the fountain of the water of life free.
NWT

6And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
KJV

The following verse identifies the speaker by saying: “Anyone conquering will inherit these things, and I shall be his God and he will be my son.” Inasmuch as Jesus referred to those who are joint heirs with him in his Kingdom as “brothers,” not “sons,” the speaker must be Jesus’ heavenly Father, Mt 25:40; compare Heb 2:10-12.

The last occurrance is Rev 22:13

I am the Al′pha and the O·me′ga, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.
NWT

13I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
KJV

the dialogue in Chap 22 is a bit tricky to follow because the speakers keep changing.
For instance Rev 22: 8-9 shows that an angel is speaking to John. Then Rev 22:16 is clearly Jesus speaking. However the latter part of Rev 22:17 is credited to "the Spirit & the Bride".
Then Rev 22:20 is clearly John himself speaking.

“The Alpha and the Omega” of verses 12-15, therefore, may properly be identified as the same one who bears the title in the other two occurrences: God Almighty, Yahweh, Jehovah. Not his son, Jesus.
I hope that helps you appreciate that a closer examination of the scriptures is essential for gaining an accurate understanding.

Now if Trinitarians rely on faulty logic in attributing the Title "Alpha & Omega" to Christ, then you have to question their motives in promoting this pagan idea of a three headed god.


[edit on 26-8-2008 by Sparky63]

[edit on 26-8-2008 by Sparky63]

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
We read in Revelation 1:17-18 "... Fear not; I am the First and the Last: I am He that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive forevermore, Amen ..."

The title "First and the Last" is from the Old Testament and it is a title that belongs only to YHWH. Thus it is none other than YHWH Who is saying that He died. We know from the context of the first chapter in Revelation that it is none other than Christ who is speaking here. 1 God in 3 persons.

You assume that since the expression "First & Last" was used in relation to God Almighty, that it can not be applied to Christ in a different context. However, that is faulty logic.

Consider the scrip again, ".. “And he laid his right hand upon me and said: ‘Do not be fearful. I am the First and the Last, and the living one.’” (Revelation 1:17b, 18a)

In Isaiah 44:6, Jehovah or Yahweh rightly describes his own position as the one and only almighty God, saying: “I am the first and I am the last, and besides me there is no God.”

However, when Jesus presents himself by the title “the First and the Last,” he is not claiming equality with Jehovah, the Grand Creator. He is using a title properly bestowed on him by God.

In Isaiah, Jehovah was making a statement about His unique position as the true God. He is God eternal, and besides him there is indeed no God. (1 Timothy 1:17) In Revelation, Jesus is talking about his bestowed title, calling attention to his unique resurrection.

Jesus was indeed “the First” human to be resurrected to immortal spirit life. (Colossians 1:18) Moreover, he is “the Last” to be so resurrected by Jehovah personally. Thus, he becomes “the living one . . . living forever and ever.” He enjoys immortality. In this, he is like his immortal Father, who is called “the living God.” (Revelation 7:2; Psalm 42:2)

For all others of humanity, Jesus himself is “the resurrection and the life.” (John 11:25) In harmony with this, he says to John: “I became dead, but, look! I am living forever and ever, and I have the keys of death and of Hades.” (Revelation 1:18b)

Jehovah, Yahweh if you prefer, has given Jesus the authority to resurrect the dead. That is why Jesus can say that he has the keys to unlock the gates for those bound by death and Hades (gravedom).—Compare Matthew 16:18.

So to sum it all up, When “First and Last” is again applied to Christ Jesus, at Revelation 2:8, note that again it is with respect to death and resurrection. But when it speaks thus of Jehovah no limitation is set on the meaning.

Trinitarians try to capitalize on this expression to show it was used indiscriminately for either God or Christ, and in this way argue that God and Christ are the same. But logic and reason do not allow this, no more than do many other texts in the Bible.

[edit on 26-8-2008 by Sparky63]

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Phillippians 2:5-8 tells us that Christ gave up equality with YHWH when He became a man and dwelt on the earth. Although He was still God even after He became man, He gave up the rights that He possessed as God when He lived on earth. That is why when He was on earth He was fully dependent upon His Father to perform miracles.

This is another comon scripture Trinitarians grasp at to support the pagan trinity doctrine. But a closer examination of the Greek words shows that it is not saying what they think it says.

AT PHILIPPIANS 2:6 the Catholic Douay Version (Dy) of 1609 says of Jesus: “Who being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God.” The King James Version (KJ) of 1611 reads much the same. A number of such versions are still used by some to support the idea that Jesus was equal to God.
But note how other translations render this verse:

1869: “who, being in the form of God, did not regard it as a thing to be grasped at to be on an equality with God.” The New Testament, by G. R. Noyes.

1965: “He—truly of divine nature!—never self-confidently made himself equal to God.” Das Neue Testament, revised edition, by Friedrich Pfäfflin.

1968: “who, although being in the form of God, did not consider being equal to God a thing to greedily make his own.” La Bibbia Concordata.

1976: “He always had the nature of God, but he did not think that by force he should try to become equal with God.” Today’s English Version.

1984: “who, although he was existing in God’s form, gave no consideration to a seizure, namely, that he should be equal to God.” New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures.

1985: “Who, being in the form of God, did not count equality with God something to be grasped.” The New Jerusalem Bible.

These should help to widen you understanding of the import of the text.

Some claim, however, that even these more accurate renderings imply that (1) Jesus already had equality but did not want to hold on to it or that (2) he did not need to grasp at equality because he already had it. I think this is what you are referring to. PLease correct me if I am mistaken.

In this regard, Ralph Martin, in The Epistle of Paul to the Philippians, says of the original Greek: “It is questionable, however, whether the sense of the verb can glide from its real meaning of ‘to seize’, ‘to snatch violently’ to that of ‘to hold fast.’”

The Expositor’s Greek Testament also says: “We cannot find any passage where ἁρπάζω [har·pa′zo] or any of its derivatives has the sense of ‘holding in possession,’ ‘retaining’. It seems invariably to mean ‘seize,’ ‘snatch violently’. Thus it is not permissible to glide from the true sense ‘grasp at’ into one which is totally different, ‘hold fast.’”

From the foregoing it is apparent that the translators of versions such as the Douay and the King James are bending the rules to support Trinitarian ends. Far from saying that Jesus thought it was appropriate to be equal to God, the Greek of Philippians 2:6, when read objectively, shows just the opposite, that Jesus did not think it was appropriate.

The context of the surrounding verses (3-5, 7, 8, Dy) makes it clear how verse 6 is to be understood. The Philippians were urged: “In humility, let each esteem others better than themselves.” Then Paul uses Christ as the outstanding example of this attitude: “Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus.” What “mind”? To ‘think it not robbery to be equal with God’? No, that would be just the opposite of the point being made! Rather, Jesus, who ‘esteemed God as better than himself,’ would never ‘grasp for equality with God,’ but instead he “humbled himself, becoming obedient unto death.”

Surely, that cannot be talking about any part of Almighty God. It was talking about Jesus Christ, who perfectly illustrated Paul’s point here—namely the importance of humility and obedience to one’s Superior and Creator, Jehovah God.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

1 John 5:20 Says that Jesus Christ is "the true God and eternal life."

The Scripture from the KJ reads;

20And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

Believers in the Trinity doctrine hold that the demonstrative pronoun “this” (hou′tos) refers to its immediate antecedent, Jesus Christ. They assert that Jesus is “the true God and life everlasting.”

This interpretation, however, is in conflict with the rest of the Scriptures. And many authoritative scholars do not accept this Trinitarian view. Cambridge University scholar B. F. Westcott wrote: “The most natural reference [of the pronoun hou′tos] is to the subject not locally nearest but dominant in the mind of the apostle.” Thus, the apostle John had in mind Jesus’ Father.

German theologian Erich Haupt wrote: “It has to be determined whether the [hou′tos] of the next proposition refers to the locally and immediately preceding subject . . . or to the more distant antecedent God. . . . A testimony to the one true God seems more in harmony with the final warning against idols than a demonstration of the divinity of Christ.”

Even A Grammatical Analysis of the Greek New Testament, published by Rome’s Pontifical Biblical Institute, states: “[Hou′tos]: as a climax to [verses] 18-20 the ref[erence] is almost certainly to God the real, the true, [in] opp[osition to] paganism (v. 21).”

Often hou′tos, generally translated “this” or “this one,” does not refer to the immediately preceding subject of a phrase.

Other scriptures illustrate the point. At 2 John 7, the same apostle and penman of the first letter wrote: “Many deceivers have gone forth into the world, persons not confessing Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This [hou′tos′] is the deceiver and the antichrist.” Here the pronoun cannot refer to the closest antecedent—Jesus. Obviously, “this” refers to those who denied Jesus. They collectively are “the deceiver and the antichrist.”

In his Gospel, the apostle John wrote: “Andrew the brother of Simon Peter was one of the two that heard what John said and followed Jesus. First this one [hou′tos] found his own brother, Simon.” (John 1:40, 41) It is evident that “this one” refers, not to the last person mentioned, but to Andrew. At 1 John 2:22, the apostle uses the same pronoun in a similar way.

Luke makes similar use of the pronoun, as seen at Acts 4:10, 11: “In the name of Jesus Christ the Nazarene, whom you impaled but whom God raised up from the dead, by this one does this man stand here sound in front of you. This [hou′tos′] is ‘the stone that was treated by you builders as of no account that has become the head of the corner.’” The pronoun “this” clearly does not refer to the man who was healed, though he is the one mentioned just before hou′tos. Certainly, “this” in verse 11 refers to Jesus Christ the Nazarene, who is the “cornerstone” on which the Christian congregation is founded.—Ephesians 2:20; 1 Peter 2:4-8.

Acts 7:18, 19 also illustrates the point: “There rose a different king over Egypt, who did not know of Joseph. This one [hou′tos] used statecraft against our race.” “This one” who oppressed the Jews was, not Joseph, but Pharaoh, the king of Egypt.

Such passages confirm the observation made by Greek scholar Daniel Wallace, who says that for Greek demonstratives, “what might be the nearest antecedent contextually might not be the nearest antecedent in the author’s mind.”

“The True One”

As the apostle John wrote, “the true One” is Jehovah, the Father of Jesus Christ. He is the only true God, the Creator. The apostle Paul acknowledged: “There is actually to us one God the Father, out of whom all things are.” (1 Corinthians 8:6; Isaiah 42:8) Another reason that Jehovah is “the true one” referred to at 1 John 5:20 is that he is the Source of truth. The psalmist called Jehovah “the God of truth” because He is faithful in all He does and cannot lie. (Psalm 31:5; Exodus 34:6; Titus 1:2) Referring to his heavenly Father, the Son said: “Your word is truth.” And regarding his own teaching, Jesus stated: “What I teach is not mine, but belongs to him that sent me.”—John 7:16; 17:17.

Jehovah is also “life everlasting.” He is the Source of life, the One giving it as an undeserved gift through Christ. (Psalm 36:9; Romans 6:23) Significantly, the apostle Paul said that God is “the rewarder of those earnestly seeking him.” (Hebrews 11:6) God rewarded his Son by raising him from the dead, and the Father will give the reward of everlasting life to those who serve Him with all their heart.—Acts 26:23; 2 Corinthians 1:9.

Hence, what conclusion should we come to? That Jehovah, and no one else, is “the true God and life everlasting.” He alone is worthy to receive exclusive worship from those whom he created.—Revelation 4:11.

Once again a careful and thorough examination of the facts reveal that this scripture in no way supports the Trinity.

I hope you are seeng a pattern here. When scriptures are taken out of context and the Greek & Hebrew rules of Grammer are ignored, wrong conclusions are reached.




[edit on 26-8-2008 by Sparky63]

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

And Colossians 1:18 says about Yeshua that "He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence." No creature must have the preeminence in all things. That position belongs only to YHWH alone, and, thus, Yeshua must be YHWH in order for the Scriptures to declare that He must have the preeminence in all things. Glory to God! Only God is capable of fitting such a description!

You must keep in mind that this passage is dealing with the ressurection.
Christ is referred to as the Firstborn from the dead. He was resurrected by his Heavenly Father. His resurrection paved the way for the entry of his faithful followers into the heavens.

His Preeminence is is relation to what he is firstborn from: Namely the Dead!. HE will always be unique in that he was the first raised from the dead to heavenly life.

Once again this in no way supports the Trinity. Just another scripture taken out of context.

I hope I have not offended anyone with my posts, This is a subject that I feel passionately about. In my opinion the pagan trinity doctrine is one of the greatest conspiracies in religion.

I will refrain from dominating this thread any longer and will be glad to respond to U2U's if any wish to continue discussing the subject.

I humbly apologize to the OP for going so far off Topic, especially since this subject has been discussed so many times on ATS.

reply to post by Sparky63

The first one is at Rev 1:8 where it is plain that title is given to God Almighty. Not Jesus

It's "plain" to you? When is YHWH's words IN RED LETTERS anywhere in scripture? Revelation 1:18 is in red dude. The original Greek is "pantokrator" which means : the all ruling God, omnipotent. Revelation says Christ Jesus will rule from Jerusalem, it also says NO ONE is worth to open the seals except the Lamb, the ENTIRE BOOK of Revelation is about Jesus Christ. Did you fail to read "saith the LORD. Jesus Christ is "LORD of LORDS and KING of KINGS" Jesus Christ is LORD ALMIGHTY.

You lie.

The next occurance of this phrase is Rev 21:6

The next occurance you speak of is NOT in red lettering, it is either spoken by the Holy Spirit, (I believe so because John only hears a "voice: 21:3, and 21:3 speaks of Jesus in the 3rd person = "he") Only Jesus's NT words are in red, so this obviously the Holy Spirit uttering these words to John, neither God the Father or Jesus Christ are talking, if they were John would have identified them as such and not a "voice".

The following verse identifies the speaker by saying: “Anyone conquering will inherit these things, and I shall be his God and he will be my son.” Inasmuch as Jesus referred to those who are joint heirs with him in his Kingdom as “brothers,” not “sons,” the speaker must be Jesus’ heavenly Father, Mt 25:40; compare Heb 2:10-12.

Yes, God the father is speaking here. CONGRATULATIONS, you have just proved my point. 3 different voices of God, Jesus Christ in red lettering, the unseen voice of the Holy Spirit, and God the Holy Father all saying "I am the Alpha and Omega". Like I have stated 3 members of the trinity ALL stating they are one God. You should star this post for me.

the dialogue in Chap 22 is a bit tricky to follow because the speakers keep changing.
For instance Rev 22: 8-9 shows that an angel is speaking to John. Then Rev 22:16 is clearly Jesus speaking. However the latter part of Rev 22:17 is credited to "the Spirit & the Bride".

The reason the spirit and the bride speak in unison is because the marriage supper of the Lamb has occurred already, just like a man and wife are one once married.

Then Rev 22:20 is clearly John himself speaking.

Yes, it is John but you'll notice that John also states that Jesus Christ is the one REVEALING these things to him "Surely I come quickly" is in red lettering again denoting it is Jesus Christ. John tells us "HE which testifieth these things saith..."

“The Alpha and the Omega” of verses 12-15, therefore, may properly be identified as the same one who bears the title in the other two occurrences: God Almighty, Yahweh, Jehovah. Not his son, Jesus.

Wrong again Spaky, Revelation 22 12:13 are Jesus Christ speaking, they are in red lettering, 14:15 is John's own words, 22:16 is Christ Jesus's own red letter words again, and 22:17 is the Holy Spirit and the bride of Christ saying these things in unison. You need to purchase a red letter edition Bible, seems you have issues knowing which form of the Godhead is speaking at any given time.

I hope that helps you appreciate that a closer examination of the scriptures is essential for gaining an accurate understanding.

You confused, muddled, and deliberately mislead with your personal opinions. All you have proved is that all 3, Jesus Christ, the Holy Spirit, and God the Holy Father use "Alpha and Omega" to identify themselves. They all we first and Last, they all are one God.

Now if Trinitarians rely on faulty logic in attributing the Title "Alpha & Omega" to Christ, then you have to question their motives in promoting this pagan idea of a three headed god.

So far the evidence shows your logic is faulty. You have just given credibility to my argument.

reply to post by Sparky63

You assume that since the expression "First & Last" was used in relation to God Almighty, that it can not be applied to Christ in a different context. However, that is faulty logic.

Consider the scrip again, ".. “And he laid his right hand upon me and said: ‘Do not be fearful. I am the First and the Last, and the living one.’” (Revelation 1:17b, 18a)

I don't "assume" anything Spanky, from the word "Fear" in verse 17 all the way to the word "churches" in chapter 3 verse 22 are ALL red letter text meaning the words of Jesus Christ. You stop short of also including the LAST half of verse 18 which is Jesus speaking ", and was dead, and, behold I am alive forevermore."

If we are to believe that YHWH "died", you tell me when it happened. Jesus Christ died on the cross, Jesus Christ states in verse 1:18 that HE is ALSO the "first and the last". You continue to prove my point, dude, you need to purchase a red letter edition of the Bible, it will help since it seems you have reading comprehension struggles.

Jesus was indeed “the First” human to be resurrected to immortal spirit life. (Colossians 1:18) Moreover, he is “the Last” to be so resurrected by Jehovah personally. Thus, he becomes “the living one . . . living forever and ever.” He enjoys immortality. In this, he is like his immortal Father, who is called “the living God.” (Revelation 7:2; Psalm 42:2)

Enoch and Elijah were before Jesus. They never tasted death. You are the one twisting verses for your agenda, JWs are a cult. Does the church forbid you from purchasing red letter editions of scripture? If so I now know why.

Trinitarians try to capitalize on this expression to show it was used indiscriminately for either God or Christ, and in this way argue that God and Christ are the same. But logic and reason do not allow this, no more than do many other texts in the Bible.

We ABSOLUTLEY do not claim YHWH and Jesus Christ are the "same", but they are two within 1. The have a unison voice, but are 3 different persons. God the Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit. They all speak of themselves as such.

Buy a red letter Bible and look at your "evidence" and it will be plain as day to you.

reply to post by Sparky63

This is another comon scripture Trinitarians grasp at to support the pagan trinity doctrine. But a closer examination of the Greek words shows that it is not saying what they think it says.

You state this but then fail to look at the actual Greek of "form" which is 3444 in Strong's Concordance, and is the Greek : "morphe"

Noun meaning "form, shape". Used in the sense of "phusis" (5449), NATURE rather than simply form or shape. Strongs also tell us:

"(Php 2:6, see "Theos" [2316], God) a CLEAR affirmation of His divine nature.

Yes, let's look at the Greek, I agree 100%. It's used as a "clear affirmation" of His divine nature.

Originally posted by Sparky63
I hope I have not offended anyone with my posts, This is a subject that I feel passionately about. In my opinion the pagan trinity doctrine is one of the greatest conspiracies in religion.

I will refrain from dominating this thread any longer and will be glad to respond to U2U's if any wish to continue discussing the subject.

I humbly apologize to the OP for going so far off Topic, especially since this subject has been discussed so many times on ATS.

You need to ask for forgiveness for stating that the Godhead is "pagan doctrine".

Blasphemy! And a damnable heresy to claim Jesus Christ isn't God made flesh.

reply to post by NOTurTypical


I'm sorry, I simply could not let this go.

Please look a the first verse of Revelation Chap 1.

And answer this. who gave the revelation to Christ? Rev 1:1 makes it clear the God gave it to him. Christ at this time was already resurrected to heavenly lefe, and yet he had to be given this revelation by GOD.

It was therefore knowlege he did not aleady possess.

In spite of what your RED letters indicate. The statement made in Vs 8 is not made by Jesus. I know, "Its in Red...it must be true" Many people have fallen into that trap and let others do the thinking for them.

How do we know? Look at the Greek word for Almighty.

The Almighty.” Gr., ho Pan·to·kra′tor; Lat., O·mni′po·tens; J18(Heb.), ’El Shad·dai′, “God Almighty”; J17,22(Heb.), ’Elo·heh′ tseva·’ohth′, “God of armies.” See Ru 1:20 ftn, “Almighty.”

In the Christian Greek Scriptures the word Pan·to·kra′tor occurs ten times, nine of them in the book of Revelation. The word basically means “Almighty,” or “All Powerful.” Its use in the Christian Greek Scriptures lends weight to the understanding of the Hebrew term Shad·dai′ as meaning “Almighty One,” since otherwise there would be no corresponding term for Pan·to·kra′tor in the Hebrew Scriptures.

The title’s application to Jehovah God is made obvious at Revelation 19:6 by the use of the expression Hallelujah (Praise Jah, you people!).

6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunders, saying, Hallelujah: for the Lord our God, the Almighty, reigneth.

(American Standard Version)

Since Jah is a shortened form of the name Jehovah, it is clear this title does not apply to JEsus.
Jesus is never referred to anywhere in the scriptures as th Almighty.

Christianity was finished a long time ago, It's islam's turn to fall now, soon the whole world will be awake to the fact that this is all there is!
Not saying that Jesus's message is not valid, he has good morals, and as for muhammed, the sooner we show him up for the common criminal pedophile that he was the better off everyone will be.

reply to post by Sparky63


Dude, you really need to understand the the Jehovah's Witnesses are a cult.

www.bible.ca...

Take your time, and I'll pray that the Holy Spirit will free you from their satanic teachings and damnable heresies.

Originally posted by MatrixProphet
Amaterasu

Wow. Given the information in the OP here... You seem to have a special line on which version might be the "true" one... I mean, you say, "I will stick to the bible. he made it exactly the way he wanted," but I wonder which version that is?

Given the fact that the KJV has some of the most mistakes of all, and that it is just a version, and was never considered a translation!

My thoughts are: the Bible has great validity but one must read between the lines. Read past the dogma and it can be quite interesting! Like looking for hidden clues that no one has found or are talking about.

I agree fully. Even though I am a-religious, I can see the gems within the dreck in many a religious text.

And KJV was one of the most agenda-ridden versions out there. (I chuckle, knowing that King James was, himself, gayer than a tree full of parrots...)

reply to post by MatrixProphet


Even Jesus said that not many people will truly hear his message, but rather will only hear parables.

Blind leading the blind

El oh el...

I recommend a GREAT book to the readers of this thread

www.amazon.com...=dp_proddesc_0?ie=UTF8&n=283155&s=books

I went out and bought it the day it came out. I wouldn't preach by it to common people, but it's extremely well written and insightful.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by Sparky63

 

This is another comon scripture Trinitarians grasp at to support the pagan trinity doctrine. But a closer examination of the Greek words shows that it is not saying what they think it says.

You state this but then fail to look at the actual Greek of "form" which is 3444 in Strong's Concordance, and is the Greek : "morphe"

Noun meaning "form, shape". Used in the sense of "phusis" (5449), NATURE rather than simply form or shape. Strongs also tell us:

"(Php 2:6, see "Theos" [2316], God) a CLEAR affirmation of His divine nature.

Yes, let's look at the Greek, I agree 100%. It's used as a "clear affirmation" of His divine nature.

I do not doubt Jesus divine nature. The Bible clearly states that he existed in the heavens before coming to earth. As such he was a mighty spirit being being of the same nature as it were of God. Having the same nature though, does not equate with "Being God".

Men all have the same nature, that is to say a physical one. If I say I exist in mans form, does that imply that I am actually the same person as you because you also exist in mans form?


What is Gods form?
John 4:24 tells us;

24God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Who else is identified in the scriptures as spirits? Angels. They too exist in Gods form. Spirit creatures as opposed to fleshly creatures.

The real clencher though is derived from considering the context of Phil 2:6

What was the point being made? IN verse 5 Christians were encouraged to imitate Christ in their dealings with one another. They were to consider others as superior to them. This is made clear in verse 2. How would the example of Christ come into play? Simply this; Christ did not consider himself equal to God. Context my friend

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Enoch and Elijah were before Jesus. They never tasted death. You are the one twisting verses for your agenda, JWs are a cult. Does the church forbid you from purchasing red letter editions of scripture? If so I now know why.

You have not done your homework here regarding Elijah.

(2 Kings 2:11) 11 And it came about that as they were walking along, speaking as they walked, why, look! a fiery war chariot and fiery horses, and they proceeded to make a separation between them both; and E·li′jah went ascending in the windstorm to the heavens.

What heavens were elijah taken too? These were neither the distant parts of the physical universe nor the spiritual place where God and his angelic sons dwell. (Deuteronomy 4:19; Psalm 11:4; Matthew 6:9; 18:10) “The heavens” to which Elijah ascended were the atmospheric heavens. (Psalm 78:26; Matthew 6:26)

Racing through earth’s atmosphere, the fiery chariot evidently transferred Elijah to another part of the earth, where he continued living for a time.

What is meant by the word “heavens” in this case? The term sometimes applies to the spiritual dwelling place of God and his angelic sons. (Matthew 6:9; 18:10) “Heavens” may also denote the physical universe. (Deuteronomy 4:19) And the Bible uses this term to refer to earth’s immediate atmosphere, where birds fly and winds blow.—Psalm 78:26; Matthew 6:26.

That Elijah did not ascend to the spiritual abode of Jehovah God was later confirmed by Jesus Christ, who declared: “No man has ascended into heaven but he that descended from heaven, the Son of man,” that is, Jesus himself. (John 3:13) The way to heavenly life was first opened up to imperfect humans after the death, resurrection, and ascension of Jesus Christ.—John 14:2, 3; Hebrews 9:24; 10:19, 20.

The proof? Read 2 Chronicles 21:1, 12-15.
This account reveals that Years later, in fact, Elijah wrote a letter to Jehoram, the king of Judah.

Christianity has done nothing but splinter into more and more factions ever since the 'faith' was codified at the Council of Nicaea in 325. So many of these splinters are bellowing that they are the 'true' faith. The fact is, there is no true faith. No one knows what Jesus said or did, or if he even actually existed. The belief that today's Christianity is some sort of pure form, preserved by some magical means over 2000 years is naive at best and utterly laughable at worst. Even looking at what the disciples did in the book of Acts bears zero correlation to what today's 'Christians' are doing. Or did I miss the part where Jesus told everyone to go around pointing fingers and being moral watchdogs? That job seemed to be up to the Pharisees, who - if we are to believe what the gospels say - Jesus derided as being empty hypocrites.