Christianity is Imploding!

Both Christianity and Islam are in the process of collapse and it is about time... both have become too distracted from their real purpose, the enightenment of "men's" souls and have become too caught up in the social and political world and more specifically in trying to impose their world views on others as opposed to trying to live the life and cultivate their own spiritual growth.

Originally posted by grover
Both Christianity and Islam are in the process of collapse and it is about time... both have become too distracted from their real purpose, the enightenment of "men's" souls and have become too caught up in the social and political world and more specifically in trying to impose their world views on others as opposed to trying to live the life and cultivate their own spiritual growth.

One tiny difference, Islam "predicts" it will rule the world. Jesus stated that right before the end there would be a great "falling away" from the Christian faith.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

You edited out Jesus's other statements.

"before Abraham was, I AM." (I existed long before Abraham)

I thought it would be clearer if my response to this was in a seperat post.

Regarding John 8:58. It needs to be considered whether Jesus was attempting to Identify his age or his Title. You must consider the context before attempting to link his expression with the one at Ex 3:14.
At Exodus 3:14 God clearly refers to himseld by the title "I Am"

According to the King James Version rendering of Exodus 3:13, 14, Moses asked: “When I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is his name? what shall I say unto them? And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.”

About this text, The Pentateuch and Haftorahs (Hebrew text with English translation and exposition, edited by Dr. J. H. Hertz) says that in the phrase “I am that I am . . . the emphasis is on the active manifestation of the Divine existence.”

Its use as a title or name for God was therefore appropriate because by delivering them from Egyptian bondage, God was about to manifest his existence in behalf of his people in an outstanding way. Hertz says that “most moderns follow Rashi [a renowned medieval French Bible and Talmud commentator] in rendering ‘I will be what I will be.’”

At John 8:58, once again the King James Version has Jesus using the expression “I am” [Greek, e·go′ ei·mi′] in connection with himself, saying, “Before Abraham was, I am.” But here the expression is quite different from the one used at Exodus 3:14. Jesus did not use it as a name or title but simply as a means of explaining his prehuman existence.

Here is a case of Trinitarians manipulating the scriptures.

The question of the Jews (verse 57) to which Jesus was replying had to do with age, not identity. Jesus’ reply logically dealt with his age, the length of his existence. Interestingly, no effort is ever made to apply e·go′ ei·mi′ as a title to the holy spirit.

Says A Grammar of the Greek New Testament in the Light of Historical Research, by A. T. Robertson: “The verb [ei·mi′] . . . Sometimes it does express existence as a predicate like any other verb, as in [e·go′ ei·mi′] (Jo. 8:58).”—Nashville, Tenn.; 1934, p. 394.

Clearly, no Scriptural basis exists for the claim that Jesus is the same as Jehovah or Yahweh of the Hebrew Scriptures.

Here are some interesting translations of John 8:58 where "I AM" is not even considered as a title, thus negating any suppurt of the Trinity.

Fourth/Fifth Century “before Abraham was, I have been”
Syriac—Edition: A Translation of the Four Gospels from the Syriac of the Sinaitic Palimpsest, by Agnes Smith Lewis, London, 1894.

Fifth Century: “before ever Abraham came to be, I was” Curetonian Syriac—Edition: The Curetonian Version of the Four Gospels, by F.Crawford Burkitt, Vol. 1, Cambridge, England, 1904.


Fifth Century: “before Abraham existed, I was”
Syriac Pe#ta—Edition: The Syriac New Testament Translated into English
rom the Pe#to Version, by James Murdock, seventh ed., Boston and London, 1896.

Fifth Century “before Abraham came to be, I was”
Georgian—Edition: “The Old Georgian Version of the Gospel of John,” by
Robert P. Blake and Maurice Brière, published in Patrologia Orientalis Vol. XXVI, fascicle 4, Paris, 1950.

Sixth Century “before Abraham was born, I was”
Ethiopic—Edition: Novum Testamentum . . .Æthiopice (The New Testment . . . in Ethiopic), by Thomas Pell Platt, revised by F. Praetorius, Leipzig, 1899.

Attempting to identify Jesus with Jehovah or Yahweh, some say that ἐγὼ εἰμί (e·go′ ei·mi′) is the equivalent of the Hebrew expression ’ani′ hu’, “I am he,” which is used by God. However, it is to be noted that this Hebrew expression is also used by man, King David at 1Chronicles 21:17, in identifying himself.





[edit on 25-8-2008 by Sparky63]

reply to post by Sparky63


The term YHWH comes from "I AM THAT I AM". Jehova has been proven to be grammatically impossible in the Hebrew language.

en.wikipedia.org...

Elohim also means Gods or Godhead, it is a word that is used in the singular sense about the same way the word 'family' would be used. Elohim is one, one family, one God. Keep trying, you'll never destroy the divinity of Jesus Christ. Before all that was He was. Jesus Christ is God, He is Yahweh. He is the Alpha and the Omega. Yet He always recognized and gave glory to God the Father, who is spirit and must be worshiped in spirit.

For all you spiritualists out there that say that the message that we are gods is inline with Jesus teachings are making up their own Bible. Jesus told us that there is no other way to eternal life except through Him. He is the life giver. In fact he resurrected Himself from death. He can CHOOSE to lay down His life, and He can CHOOSE to take it up again.

I'm sure you can find THOUSANDS of opinions and takes on scripture that deny Jesus is God the Son. I'm positive actually.

here is something also to consider, Paul refused to let anyone worship him:

"As Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him, and fell down at his feet, and worshipped him. But Peter took him up, saying, Stand up; I myself also am a man." —Acts 10:25,26

The angel refused to let people worship him in Revelation:

"I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said to me, See you do it not: I am your fellow-servant, and of your brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God." - Revelation 19:10

However, quite a few verses show us that Jesus Christ allowed human men to worship Him:

"While he spoke these things to them, behold, there came a certain ruler, and worshipped him, saying, My daughter is even now dead: but come and lay your hand upon her, and she shall live" —Matthew 9:18

and:

"Then they that were in the ship came and worshipped him, saying, Of a truth you are the Son of God" —Matthew 14:33

And:

"Then she came and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me" —Matthew 15:25

"And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped him" —Matthew 28:9

"When they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted" — Matthew 28:17

Why did Jesus Christ not prohibit people from worshiping Him???

Could it be becasue Jesus Christ was God the Father manifest in the flesh??

I think so:

"…the image of the invisible God…" —Colossians 1:15

And;

"God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached to the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory…" —1 Timothy 3:16

Originally posted by Sparky63


Attempting to identify Jesus with Jehovah or Yahweh, some say that ἐγὼ εἰμί (e·go′ ei·mi′) is the equivalent of the Hebrew expression ’ani′ hu’, “I am he,” which is used by God. However, it is to be noted that this Hebrew expression is also used by man, King David at 1Chronicles 21:17, in identifying himself.

Who is identifying Jesus (Yeshua) with Jehovah (YHWH)?

They are 2 of the three distinct dieties, yet all 3 are one. "trinity" I have previouslt stated is an ENGLISH theological term for "Godhead" which implies the exact same connotation.

3 Gods in one. Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical


However, quite a few verses show us that Jesus Christ allowed human men to worship Him:

"While he spoke these things to them, behold, there came a certain ruler, and worshipped him, saying, My daughter is even now dead: but come and lay your hand upon her, and she shall live" —Matthew 9:18

and:

"Then they that were in the ship came and worshipped him, saying, Of a truth you are the Son of God" —Matthew 14:33

And:

"Then she came and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me" —Matthew 15:25

"And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped him" —Matthew 28:9

"When they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted" — Matthew 28:17

Why did Jesus Christ not prohibit people from worshiping Him???

Could it be becasue Jesus Christ was God the Father manifest in the flesh??

I think so:

"…the image of the invisible God…" —Colossians 1:15

And;

"God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached to the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory…" —1 Timothy 3:16

One has to consider the context. The greek word often rendered Worship is pro·sky·ne′o.
However is can also mean, "Bow Down" "Do obesience", as one would do to a king.. An example of this is found at Mat 18:26
the same word was used here, but it obviously does not mean that the slave rendered worship to the king in the same manner he would to God.

The context must be considered to determine whether pro·sky·ne′o refers to obeisance solely in the form of deep respect or obeisance in the form of religious worship.

The very expressions of those involved often reveal that, while they clearly recognized Jesus as God’s representative, they rendered obeisance to him, not as to God or a deity, but as “God’s Son,” the foretold “Son of man,” the Messiah with divine authority.

reply to post by NOTurTypical


The Father’s superiority over the Son, as well as the fact that the Father is a separate person, is highlighted also in the prayers of Jesus, such as the one before his execution: “Father, if you wish, remove this cup [that is, an ignominious death] from me. Nevertheless, let, not my will, but yours take place.” (Luke 22:42)

If God and Jesus are “one in essence,” as the Trinity doctrine says, how could Jesus’ will, or wish, seem different from that of his Father?—Hebrews 5:7, 8; 9:24.

Furthermore, if Jehovah and Jesus were the same, how could one of them be aware of things of which the other was not? Jesus, for instance, said regarding the time of the world’s judgment: “Concerning that day or the hour nobody knows, neither the angels in heaven nor the Son, but the Father.”—Mark 13:32.

The Trinity is not a teaching of Jesus or of the early Christians.

The New Catholic Encyclopedia (1967) discusses the Trinity at length and admits: “The Trinitarian dogma is in the last analysis a late 4th-century invention. . . . The formulation ‘one God in three Persons’ was not solidly established, certainly not fully assimilated into Christian life and its profession of faith, prior to the end of the 4th century.”

Martin Werner, as professor at the University of Bern, Switzerland, observed: “Wherever in the New Testament the relationship of Jesus to God, the Father, is brought into consideration, whether with reference to his appearance as a man or to his Messianic status, it is conceived of and represented categorically as subordination.”

Clearly, what Jesus and the early Christians believed is far different from the Trinity teaching of churches today. From where, then, did this teaching come?

The Bible tells of many gods and goddesses that people worshiped, including Ashtoreth, Milcom, Chemosh, and Molech. (1 Kings 11:1, 2, 5, 7)
The worship of pagan gods grouped in threes, or triads, was also common before Jesus was born. “From Egypt came the ideas of a divine trinity,” observed historian Will Durant.

In the Encyclopædia of Religion and Ethics, James Hastings wrote: “In Indian religion, e.g., we meet with the trinitarian group of Brahmā, Siva, and Viṣṇu; and in Egyptian religion with the trinitarian group of Osiris, Isis, and Horus.”

The Trinity is no more than a variation on the Pagan theme of Triads of Gods.

Sparky,

The idea of the Godhead isn't post 4th century. It's also the theme in the OT.

God speaks in plural form:

Genesis 1:26. "Then God said, 'Let us make man in our image, after our likeness.'

Genesis 11:7. "Come, let us go down, and there confuse their language."

Isaiah 6:8. "And I heard the voice of the Lord saying, 'Whom shall I send, and who will go for us?"

A final, startling passage is Proverbs 30:4. The prophet Agur is speaking about the nature of Almighty God, confessing his ignorance of him.

"Who has ascended to heaven and come down? Who has gathered the wind in his fists? Who has wrapped up the waters in a garment? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is his name, and what is his son's name? Surely you know!" In that day the prophet knew only the Father's name, the name Jehovah. Today we know that his Son's name is the Lord Jesus Christ.

John 1:1-2 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God"

John 1:14 "...became flesh and dwelt among us." (The Word)

Pil. 2:5-8 Paul writes: "Have this mind among yourselves, which you have in Christ Jesus, who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. And being found in human form he humbled himself and became obedient unto death, even death on a cross"

John 14:9 - "He who has seen me has seen the Father"

Colossians 1:16 About Jesus Christ the son: "For in him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible"

Jesus never ONCE denied deity. Can you show me where he did?

reply to post by LoneGunMan


Lonegunman
thanks for this reponse,

may I assume that there's huge ammounts of money changeing hands?

Let me say this, religion is made by man. Anything man creates is imperfect to begin with. The book of God was created long ago, as u said. Translated over and over again, plus the church placing the scriptures they wanted it in, exaggerating some to make it seem more herioc, which have been proven. They have taken out parts of scriptures to keep certain things a secret, as well. We humans were created for one thing, to keep God company basically. Yet, everyone has a misconception of what God really is, including myself. All we know is some almight powerful being either way, created us, and to worship God. Throughout history, we keep defying our God, no matter what, even when God used to be among us. He changed our race and our languages because, we thought we could be Gods ourselves. He wiped the whole world out, cleansing it, having Noah and his family starting a new, which God was hoping, would become better. God destroyed many civilizations throughout history because they wouldn't change their ways, telling them to change...or else. Church is not at a building, it's a place within us. God never even told anyone to make a religion, just to be with God, be good, do as ur told, kind of thing. Throughout history, kings would claim themselves as a God among men. Each one who has done so, has alwayz been assasinated, died a sickly death, or killed in war. The reason these beings come into existant like so is because, the devil thinks he has control of these people, yet God is using that to also lower the population of the people who has lost their ways and won't change. I lost my way, and got shot up in a road range, I had nothing to do with, but was there for a reason, to get back on track with our God. I was never a bad person. I was kind, caring, helpful, but then I was lost. I wasn't into anything really, nothing like that, I just wasn't with God as I should have. Wisdom is a major part of our existence, but no one listens to her. The only thing I really pay attention to in the Bible is Proverbs and Revelations. Those two scriptures are bout the only ones that has been untouched, yet translated thru time, it hasn't been changed by man for any certain reasons. I have read the bible over and over. I can sit there and talk to anyone about anything in the bible. I believe however, God didn't know what God got into when giving us free will. I guarantee God has created other beings throughout this universe, they were just created way earlier than us, checkin up on us in a sense. For some reason, God wanted to make us different. Also, it is said that it wasn't the Devil that got Adam and Eve to eat the fruit of Good and Evil, but more of an ancient being, as some scripture has described that was found recently. It is said another female that was created the same way as Adam, by dirt, dust, whatever. She wouldn't submit to Adam, as we would demand her to do. She tried to talk to God about it, but was denied, so she went against God for it, vowing to make as much as her female children into whores basically. I forget her name, starts with an L, I belive. Some older cultures have her as a God. Tried to look it up on internet, but can't find a category for her name, no time at the moment. But, it's the few that counts, that's how it ended up for this world. People just don't want to listen, in general, people are weak minded for some reason, even God doesn't understand, and still don't. God said when Adam and Eat at the fruit of knowledge of good and evil. God said, you will have the knowledge I have, but not the immortality as God have now. Because, of having the knowledge of doing good and evil, it messed up humanity in a way. People just seem to do more evil, because they think they are God like, and would find any way to immortalize themselves in any way. People wants to be recognized by their actions, of any type, good or bad.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
Sparky,

The idea of the Godhead isn't post 4th century. It's also the theme in the OT.

God speaks in plural form:

Genesis 1:26. "Then God said, 'Let us make man in our image, after our likeness.'

Genesis 11:7. "Come, let us go down, and there confuse their language."

Isaiah 6:8. "And I heard the voice of the Lord saying, 'Whom shall I send, and who will go for us?"

The only thing these scriptures prove is that God was not alone in the heavens.
He had already created his son described in the Bible as the "Firstborn of all creation", Col 1:15 Thus, Jesus had a beginning, whereas Jehovah God has no beginning or end.

God had also created the myriads of angels who were at his beck and call to carry out his directions and assignments. None of these support the Trinity doctrine.

These are just more examples of scriptures taken out of context.

reply to post by FalknFerno


I do agree with most of what you have said. But, please, please use paragraphs next time. Your post is very difficult to read.

Thank you and welcome to ATS

reply to post by Amaterasu



Amaterasu, thanx for your thoughtful response



Count Dracula " Igor have you not heard of do unto others ---------?"


Igor " Before they do unto me "

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Count Dracula "Igor why do you torment that creature so? "


Igor "It's what I do "

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
Sparky,

A final, startling passage is Proverbs 30:4. The prophet Agur is speaking about the nature of Almighty God, confessing his ignorance of him.

"Who has ascended to heaven and come down? Who has gathered the wind in his fists? Who has wrapped up the waters in a garment? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is his name, and what is his son's name? Surely you know!" In that day the prophet knew only the Father's name, the name Jehovah. Today we know that his Son's name is the Lord Jesus Christ.

I think you are confused as to what the prophet is really asking here.
The wole point of his series of questions is that no imperfect human has gone up to heaven and come back omniscient; nor has any human the ability to control the wind, the seas, or the geological forces shaping the earth.

In effect, then, Agur asked: ‘Do you know the name or family line of any man who has done these things?’ We must answer no.

Surely you are not using this to support the pagan trinity doctrine.

Hey, Sparky. Long time no see. I hope you don't mind me stepping in here on your conversation with another member but I just got done debating this in the debate forum. I'm not arguing you but instead am interested in your opinion on some things. It is refreshing to be able to discuss this topic with another Christian who also loves the Lord instead of a nonbeliever because I know you and I are on the same page spiritually and we won't have to keep resorting to Biblical Concepts 101 or haggling over things a non believer would never be able grasp. I agree with some of your post so this will only be asking about certain points you make.

Originally posted by Sparky63
Furthermore, if Jehovah and Jesus were the same, how could one of them be aware of things of which the other was not? Jesus, for instance, said regarding the time of the world’s judgment: “Concerning that day or the hour nobody knows, neither the angels in heaven nor the Son, but the Father.”—Mark 13:32.

I agree with you that the Father and Son are two separate entities but this was a passage I found while researching the debate just in case the argument was presented. In Philippians, it states Jesus came down to earth and 'made Himself nothing' when He became a man. Basically that He gave up His full powers once He became human. Your thoughts?

The Trinity is not a teaching of Jesus or of the early Christians.

The New Catholic Encyclopedia (1967) discusses the Trinity at length and admits: “The Trinitarian dogma is in the last analysis a late 4th-century invention. . . . The formulation ‘one God in three Persons’ was not solidly established, certainly not fully assimilated into Christian life and its profession of faith, prior to the end of the 4th century.”

HERE is the post in the debate dealing with Ante-Nicene church fathers (therefore before the 4th century council of Nicea). Scroll down to Point Sixteen for references to a trinitarian concept. I do fully agree with you that the concept was 'solidified' at the council but what is your opinion on the concept being in existence and recorded by founding church fathers? There are many more references than what I listed but it seems the concept was there and Jesus alluded to it with saying things like, 'The Father and I are one.' I'd like to hear your opinion on this if you are willing.

Martin Werner, as professor at the University of Bern, Switzerland, observed: “Wherever in the New Testament the relationship of Jesus to God, the Father, is brought into consideration, whether with reference to his appearance as a man or to his Messianic status, it is conceived of and represented categorically as subordination.”

I'd like your opinion on this as well. An excerpt from the debate:

"The most basic analogy to help my opponent understand this concept would be comparing the Son and Father to a marriage between a man and a woman according to Christian principles. Although a man and a woman are two separate physical entities, they are spiritually considered 'one flesh.' And although this might turn off some readers, I am not going to ignore fact to spare sensitiveness: Just as the man is appointed as head of the marital union and the wife is submissive to the husband, so is the Father God the head of the trinity and Jesus submits to Him. Separate entities, one spiritually united flesh. Jesus being the Son does not negate His divinity."

Clearly, what Jesus and the early Christians believed is far different from the Trinity teaching of churches today. From where, then, did this teaching come?

In Point Ten of THIS I list a few examples of God the Father, Jesus the Son, and the Holy Spirit being listed in the same passages. Then in the link already listed about from Ante-Nicene fathers who write about it. So it seems like the concept was definitely there and the church later affirmed it as official church doctrine to guard against the 'heretical sects' who believed in a unitarian God and that Jesus was only an elevated prophet.

Anyways, I am delighted to have come across your post and to engage you in this. It's very exciting to get to talk to another Christian about this subject even if we don't agree. I only know of a couple other Christians on ATS who do not believe in Jesus' divinity or the trinity so it's so nice to finally get to ask a Christian who believes this. Thanks so much.

[edit on 8/25/2008 by AshleyD]

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Jesus Christ - "I and the father are one"

Jesus was not a lier. We are all one with God. So are you.

Buddha Said "I am awake" meaning he understood the oneness with God.

The current disagreement between sparky an Nourtypical is in fact typical of christianity no offence dudes.

The Jesusgod loved you so much that in order for you to be saved from hell the creation of the jesusgod, he made it very difficult for you to understand what he was all about, and obviously both of you are right.


Would it not be a good idea that a section of the earth be set aside for the rleigious? They can fight it out among themselves and the reasoning world can then carry on in some sort of harmony. When their god or gods come to collect them, they'll all be in one place and easier to find. On their merry way up to heaven or vallhella or wherever the winning god takes them, they can smugly give the rest of us the finger and say I told you so as we burn in hell or watch endless reruns of the xfactor.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

John 1:1-2 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God"

John 1:14 "...became flesh and dwelt among us." (The Word)

Going Back to John 1:1 which says in the King James Version: “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God

John 1:14 tells us that “the Word became flesh and resided among us.” Christendom claims that this “Word” (Greek, lo′gos) who came to earth as Jesus Christ was God Almighty himself.

Yet, notice that even in the King James Version John 1:1 says “the Word was with God.” Someone who is with another person is not the same as that other person. So even from this translation, two distinct personalities are shown. Also, no third person of any Trinity is mentioned at all.

As for the King James Version’s saying in the latter part of John 1:1 that the “Word was God,” other translations say something different. Some are as follows:

1808: “and the word was a god.” The New Testament, in an Improved Version, Upon the Basis of Archbishop Newcome’s New Translation: With a Corrected Text, London.

1864: “and a god was the Word.” The Emphatic Diaglott, by Benjamin Wilson, New York and London.

1935: “and the Word was divine.” The Bible—An American Translation, by J. M. P. Smith and E. J. Goodspeed, Chicago.

1935: “the Logos was divine.” A New Translation of the Bible, by James Moffatt, New York.

1975: “and a god (or, of a divine kind) was the Word.” Das Evangelium nach Johannes, by Siegfried Schulz, Göttingen, Germany.

1978: “and godlike sort was the Logos.” Das Evangelium nach Johannes, by Johannes Schneider, Berlin.

1979: “and a god was the Logos.” Das Evangelium nach Johannes, by Jurgen Becker, Würzburg, Germany.