If you think that God is omnipotent, then do not deny evil from it!

reply to post by Matrix1111


You've hit the nail on the head. I hope these debaters read your
reply and reflect on it. The 'perfect vs imperfect' explanation
resolves the biggest part of the debate.

Your writings are evidence that you have a very well-furnished apartment "upstairs." Well-furnished indeed.

Originally posted by lw2525
reply to post by Matrix1111

 

You've hit the nail on the head. I hope these debaters read your
reply and reflect on it. The 'perfect vs imperfect' explanation
resolves the biggest part of the debate.

Your writings are evidence that you have a very well-furnished apartment "upstairs." Well-furnished indeed.

Actually, I think of myself as "homeless" with a bit too much time on my hands.

Originally posted by lw2525
Debating the existence (or non-existence) of God is foolish.
Attempting to assess, through "human" psychoanalysis, the "personality" of a Being that
transcends time, space, matter, energy, and human life & death is
really foolish.

In whose opinion is it foolish? Yours! How is it foolish to think about these things and discuss them with others? To come in and call it foolishness says a lot more about you than it does anyone here in this thread.

"So then, people still keep asking why does God allow such evil in world?"

The answer to this question is extremely long, and will take up more space than I am allowed per post. But to begin, let us start with the fact that God gave all of us free will. You mentioned that God created Satan, and this is true. Originally, Satan reflected the glory of God, and was the Lord's arch-angel. Unfortunately, Satan became arrogant (by his own free will) and that, in short, is why Satan is now banished from the Kingdom of Heaven.

As for the rest of us, we too have free will. Why? Because the ultimate reason the Lord created life is love. Without free will, there can be no real love. Think about it: if you programmed your computer to say "I love you" when you boot it up, is that love? Of course not, it's meaningless programming. The only time love can possibly mean anything is if we choose to love God and love each other.

With that in mind, we then want to know why a loving God would allow suffering. The reason is that unfortunately, while the Lord is perfect, we are not. The Lord tells us what the right thing is to do, but unfortunately we don't always listen. We don't choose correctly because we choose not to listen to the Lord (we allowed ourselves to be lured by Satan).

Furthermore, since we are not perfect and omnipotent, we have much to learn - always have, always will. But getting back to your question of why God allows evil in the world, look at it this way: if instead of the kind of world we have now, the Lord instead decided to 1. come to our rescue every time we screwed up, or 2. stopped us from screwing up in the first place, then in the end, what will we have learned in life? I can make a list of what we would not have learned:
Sympathy, compassion, empathy, charity, generosity, repentance,
remorse, forgiveness, responsibility, integrity, courtesy, honesty,
perseverence...the list can go on and on...

That partial list above...aren't those the real defining factors of real love? Just how meaningful would love be, absent those characteristics mentioned above? If there were no evil in the world, we would have no need of any of those, and it is the presence or absence of those factors that show how real it is. As the country song goes: you find out who your friends are. Why do you think "for better or for worse" is part of the wedding vows? It's all a part of building your character. You can read all the books, hear all the lectures, but you don't truly learn the lessons until you have had some relevant experience. That's how character is built - under fire. You can watch someone build a birdhouse, you can read the books on how it's done, but you don't truly learn how until you try it yourself. That's why the Boy Scouts do things the way they do. And that's why the Lord allows us to go through what we go through: because it is only through experience that we learn how to deal with adversity, help others deal with it, and really learn the true meaning of love.

I hope that you can recognize that the evil you see is not in God, but in ourselves and in Satan, and that you can make peace with the Lord and feel the love He has always had for you. God Bless.

reply to post by justamomma


Alright!! I suppose I'll answer you the best I can, and since you numbered your questions I'll answer them in corresponding numbers alright?

1. You'll end up eternally separated from God, you'll end up with all the others who chose to not want to be with God, all the others who chose not to serve God. If you don't want to listen to Him now, you won't want to for ETERNITY. Trust me, if His laws/rules/love you don't find desirable here on Earth for a short span of time, you surely won't want to endure it for 1,000 years, 100,000 years, et cetra.

2. I don't know for sure, my love for God is for the sacrifice he made for me. I suppose if He had chose not to then I wouldn't love Him. i imagine I'd feel no differently towards God than those do who deny He sacrificed Himself for them. Your Q is hard for me to postulate an answer to honestly, it's based on a hypothetical that isn't possible. God did send His only begotten son to die for me.

3. Sin is inherited through Adam, through birth, yet, until a child reaches the age of accountability he/she isn't capable of understanding such things. I also think people who are mentally retarded of with a likewise brain condition are also exempt because they don't have the ability to decide for themselves to reject or accept. What sin did I commit? Any unforgivable sin will make me unworthy to be in the presence of God. Only He knows such things, and there isn't to much he has revealed.

4. Same as #2. I believe it was an honest Q. I still maintain that my love for God is based on His love for me first, His sacrifice for me.

You misrepresented my drivers license example, or perhaps I worded it in such a manner that I didn't convey myself properly. Let me attempt it again.

"When a person applies for and receives a drivers liscense they also by default accept the rules of the highway, they also by default accept that any failure by them to abide by those rules will result in them being punished by either fines or jail time."

Is that more clear?

What if I choose to not want to choose?

Re-read your Q. You "choosing" not to choose. Is a "choice". It's a choice not to accept the free payment for your sin that God offered you.

I don't remember what it was I did that seperated me, but it must have been pretty damn bad to earn me a place in hell. Wasn't murder though; or fornication (referring to THE sin that cut me off from him); could have been the time that I stole a piece of gum from the store, but surely THAT act didn't cut me off bc I only became "aware" that it was wrong when my mother scolded me and made me return it... before that, it was just that I saw the gum, wanted it, and didn't realize there was a system to follow... but I learned my lesson from that. Was that it? was that the big crime that cut me off?

God doesn't see your sins as "big" or "small", he sees all sin the same... SIN. A "white lie" is the same as murder. Sin is sin.

What the hell is the point of experiencing and learning if I can't experience without worrying whether I am gonna piss off god? I have more wisdom from the experiences I have been through and the mistakes I have made than I would have had I just done what it was I was told to do by the preacher and teachers in church.

Because oftentimes when you commit a sin, it causes others to do as well. Hypothetically speaking lets say you were married and you had an affair, you would be guilty of adultery, so would the man that had sex with you. Just an example, I have no idea what you marital situation is.

So if I have to choose btw doing what I am told but not really learning and just living my life and being aware of the experiences and actually learning how and why to be a better person, I choose the 2nd. If that gets me a spot in hell, that is a chance that I am willing to take bc I don't trust a god anyway that would throw me in hell for not taking the first option.

Is that how you would raise your children who you love? Would you encourage them to do drugs so they can learn for themselves? Would you encourage them to play with guns so they can learn for themselves? If you would tell your children not to do things because you want to protect them from the negative consequences why would you deny God the same wisdom?

Everyone's opinion that differs from yours is a straw man theory. What do you think god and jesus as god are? duh....

No that's not true, anyone can look up the definition or explanation of a straw man argument. I call it where it applies, when a person misrepresents my words or the words of another to better their argument. It's a term for a reason, it's use is used for a reason. I don't use it "when someones opinion differs from mine" as you claim, I enjoy debate, arguments are counterproductive.

You say things like "proof is relative" but you have to believe.

Because that is fact, proof is a relative term. Example, the first man to sail around the world had proof that the world was round an not flat the instant he completed his journey. Was his story to everyone on the shore "proof" that the world was round? No it wasn't. Did their disbelief make the world flat? No, it didn't. Meaning "proof" is only "proof" when someone agrees to accept it as proof. That's logic.

reply to post by rentacop1976


Our choices, salvation, and god's love according to the bible ARE NOT free!!

If they come with stipulations, rewards and consequences, to call them free is a lie... period.

I am not understanding how ppl ignore this and throw out logic in favor of just accepting what they are told.

If I told you that you could choose "option A" which was to be able to experience life and learn from your mistakes but the consequence was you had to pay me $2,000,000 OR you could choose "option B" but you have to do what I tell you from now on and at the end of it I'll give you $5 (bc come on.... living out life with the holy doesn't sound like all that much of a reward) would you say that your choice was free?


No!! there are prices and/or sacrifices you have to make with either option therefore negating the free factor. Sure you can make the choice, but even your choice isn't free.... there will be something you have to give or give up in either scenario.

LOGIC... I am almost SURE there was a reason it was given to us.



[edit on 19-8-2008 by justamomma]

Human created evil themselves. God gave them free will. They choose their own path, it's not Gods fault that most people are ignorant.

Humans have immortal souls to experiance life. If u don't like it then kill yourself and be nothing.

[edit on 19-8-2008 by amfirst]

First thank you for taking the time to reply to my "novel" I have been looking forward to seeing your reply.

I read your reply, but wanted to reply to the #2 answer in its own post first bc you raised the biggest red flag anyone could raise in religion. It is the thing that scares me the most FOR the ppl that base their life around any given religion.

I want to say first though that whether you hear me out and are really out for the truth is a choice YOU have to make and does not affect me personally other than the fact that I do care about ppl and am sad that some are so easily controlled (as I was once was).

2. I don't know for sure, my love for God is for the sacrifice he made for me. I suppose if He had chose not to then I wouldn't love Him. i imagine I'd feel no differently towards God than those do who deny He sacrificed Himself for them. Your Q is hard for me to postulate an answer to honestly, it's based on a hypothetical that isn't possible. God did send His only begotten son to die for me.

I appreciate completely that you were HONEST in your answer. This goes a long way in showing that you do have a good heart.

The major red flag in all religions in what you said was the following:

"Your Q is hard for me to postulate an answer to honestly, it's based on a hypothetical that isn't possible."

It is the scariest thing to know that good intentioned ppl will not allow themselves to think (which is one of the greatest gifts we have as humans... much greater than ANY book).

I have gone through this before, but am going to go through it again based on what you said.

You and I could argue all day long about whether or not the bible was in fact inspired by god. You will never be able to prove this point to me bc you yourself never thought the things in the bible on your own. You only knew of them and then concured AFTER you were introduced to the ideas and stories.

What neither of us will argue about is the FACT that the bible WAS written by man. There is no question or doubt in this fact. Nothing to argue on whatsoever.

Another fact that we could not argue on is that you have the ability to think for yourself and form your own thoughts and opinions. Why do you think this is? Do you think we were given the ability to think simply for *snips* and grins? Do you think a Creator would give his creation the ability to form their own thoughts simply to turn around and expect them to quit thinking and buy into a book written by man?

These ideas like a salvation plan, rules and regulations, stories etc were not thoughts that were implanted into your head by god... you only knew of them because you were either taught them by someone or you read them... either way, everything in the bible (except for bits and pieces of deeper wisdom that CAN be found in many other writings written before and after the bible came about) were put into your head by man... not the Creator.

What was on your heart before the bible came about? The here and now... the experience that you were going through AT THE TIME. When you were a baby, before you were influenced by man... the moment was what you were given by the Creator. All the rest was taught to you BY man and you can't argue with that.

Look at what you said... "Your Q is hard for me to postulate.."

The purpose of the bible as we know it has accomplished its mission in you friend and that is very sad. That is the scary thing bc I see it all around me.. both on here and IRL.

PPl have quit thinking and have accepted something that they were only TOLD was god inspired (the feelings were given to you by the power of suggestion, much like when you watch a movie and the story line isn't real but you still experience the emotion). The only thing you know for sure was that it was written by man. It is the only thing proveable and fact.

Do me a favor and at least think about what I have said. After all, there is no doubt that you were created to do so....thinking is something that DID come from the creator and not from man (another point that can't be argued), so it can't be all *that* bad to do, right?

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

i understand the strawman argument ,
but i fail to see how that is implemented to the OP

A (op) sais god is everything (good, evil every variation of preception)
B (you) sais god is good
B (you) sais god is everything but evil

thus A is truth

in my opinion you are person B the strawman in this argument


i guess you could say the 10 commandments are the one form of thermometer in this preception of good vs evil ,

god knew before hand man would sin
but then again if god did not know before hand man would sin and had to update his/hers creation with the 10 commandments , it would only prove god is not all knowing

as above so below

reply to post by justamomma
I will address one part of your reply, not that the rest of what you say has no merit, but because I believe I can explain to you the inductive reasoning process I used to convince me that the Bible is more than a storybook written by man. If you'll allow me to explain. You stated this:

You and I could argue all day long about whether or not the bible was in fact inspired by god. You will never be able to prove this point to me bc you yourself never thought the things in the bible on your own. You only knew of them and then concured AFTER you were introduced to the ideas and stories.

Do you agree or disagree with my statement that "proof is relative" and the example I gave about flat Earth VS. round Earth? For the sake of the debate I will assume that my reasoning hit home with you, and "proof" is only absolute when a person agrees with the evidence presented.

Here is my evidence that the Holy Bible had a supernatural author. And was dictated by the Holy Spirit through human hands and pens.

The EVIDENCES I used to come to my personal conclusion that the Holy Bible isn't another book, but the inspired Word of God:

1. Scientific Revelations - The Bible reveals scientific knowledge not known by the authors or science of the day at the time the book was authored, example, Isaiah stating the Earth was round.
   
2. 2. Prophecies - The bible predicts events in the future that are 100% correct, only an omnipotent author could reveal the future.
   
3. 3. Unity of the books - The Holy Bible was written over 15 CENTURIES by 40 authors, many of them never met eachother, yet their works have perfect harmony with eachother.
   
4. 4. Ability to transfor lives I can attest to this on a PERSONAL level.
   
5. 5. The testimony of Jesus Christ The Bible is declared to be the Word of God by Jesus Christ himself. I have NO reason whatsoever to believe Jesus Christ to be a liar.
   

Someone else put it a wonderful way: Suppose you had a time machine, and you randomly went back and asked 5 different men in 5 different centuries to write about God. What chance do you think that they would all speak of the exact same God, with perfect accuracy between their books? Most likely all 5 accounts would be drastically different. The Holy Bible had 40 AUTHORS over 1,500 YEARS and their works match up perfectly. The odds of that happening by chance is STAGGERING to consider. Name one other "holy" book that can claim such. Not the Quran, not the book of mormon, nothing can but the Holy Bible.

So no, I DO NOT have "blind faith", I took this into account and had ONLY one logical conclusion, the book is/could ONLY be inspired by God Himself.




[edit on 20-8-2008 by NOTurTypical]

reply to post by zerbot565
Re-read my statement. You don't have it accurate.

reply to post by NOTurTypical


in singularity there should/could only be one

isnt it the same thing for mono

might be im confuced

Originally posted by NOTurTypical1. You'll end up eternally separated from God, you'll end up with all the others who chose to not want to be with God, all the others who chose not to serve God. If you don't want to listen to Him now, you won't want to for ETERNITY. Trust me, if His laws/rules/love you don't find desirable here on Earth for a short span of time, you surely won't want to endure it for 1,000 years, 100,000 years, et cetra.

You are right. I can not adapt myself to rules that I don't understand. I do not understand why the breaking of some of the rules laid out in the bible are representative of my lack of love for the Creator.

I don't see how conforming myself to fit a mold that all I can prove is that it came from man. I don't understand why I have to believe these thing based completely on man's word and hope that everything turns out good in some far off eternity that I can't fathom.

I can't prove that there will be/or is a heaven and hell. These are concepts that were not implanted on my heart and in my head from birth. These were concepts planted into my head by man.

The only thing I know that I was given by the Creator was the here and now and the experiences at this moment. I am too busy observing and learning from my experiences right now to be worried about my a future in heaven, a new earth, and/or hell.

THIS is what he gave me. I take THIS and will appreciate every second of it instead of hoping, wishing, or banking on something that I can't prove exists in the future.

To me, all those wasting their time working and believing it will be better are fulfilling "satan's" plan and wasting what has been given to them by "god" which is RIGHT NOW.

3. Sin is inherited through Adam, through birth, yet, until a child reaches the age of accountability he/she isn't capable of understanding such things. I also think people who are mentally retarded of with a likewise brain condition are also exempt because they don't have the ability to decide for themselves to reject or accept. What sin did I commit? Any unforgivable sin will make me unworthy to be in the presence of God. Only He knows such things, and there isn't to much he has revealed.

Again here, you are buying into what can only be proven beyond a doubt to be man's words and not thinking for yourself.

Proof is in the "Only he knows such things and there isn't too much he has revealed."

The bible and religion again has served its purpose in you.

I can answer this question bc I have no limitations set forth on my thoughts such as the bible. The first time I broke relations with the Creator was when I was told by a human that I should be ashamed and sure enough, I felt guilt and shame. The stealing of the gum was indeed the first time I remember feeling embarrassed and ashamed... my innocent was broken. Not because I had actually done wrong, but because wrong had been defined in my head by another.

You misrepresented my drivers license example, or perhaps I worded it in such a manner that I didn't convey myself properly. Let me attempt it again.

I still maintain that having the driver's lisence does not affect in any way my ability to follow the rules of the road. The driver's lisence has no bearing whatsoever on my driving ability or my ability to follow the rules of the road. It is a card that has only been put in place to try and control me by posting my mistakes to my identity.

Such is the legend of Jesus. Taking his name has no bearing whatsoever on the fact that you will still experience and learn. The only thing it does, much as the driver's lisence is put guilt to your name should you make a mistake. It keeps you from truly experiencing and from truly learning. The legend as we are taught is meant to make you feel guilt, not free you.

You are so busy asking forgiveness and thanking him from detering you from bad things. You don't learn if you aren't allowed to fall and to understand why you fall and accept it in all its ugly glory.

Christians "sin" and the first thing they do is run to the alter to pray for forgiveness and then they "let the sin" go without ever really learning the deeper lessons.

There is a purpose for this and I assure you it not the Creators purpose, however, I don't deny it is god's purpose.... question is, who is this god?



[edit on 20-8-2008 by justamomma]

Originally posted by zerbot565
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

in singularity there should/could only be one

isnt it the same thing for mono

might be im confuced

Sorry sir, no disrespect, by I don't understand what you are trying to say to me. Could you please rephrase it and I'll attempt to give you my thoughts.

I apologize sincerely.

as in singularity it hold everything yet is one ,

The simplest Big Bang cosmological model of the universe contains a causal singularity at the start of time (t=0), where all timelike geodesics have no extensions into the past. Extrapolating backward to this hypothetical time 0 results in a universe of size 0 in all spatial dimensions, infinite density, infinite temperature, and infinite space-time curvature.

dosent same apply to god ,
god is everything.

nothing excluded ?



[edit on 20-8-2008 by zerbot565]

reply to post by justamomma


First of all I appreciate you warming up to me, not that I am saying that we agree, but that our debate has reached a civil tone. I hate arguments, because both sides just argue and this go in one ear and out the other and nothing is shared. I believe we are beginning to debate ideas.

You are right. I can not adapt myself to rules that I don't understand. I do not understand why the breaking of some of the rules laid out in the bible are representative of my lack of love for the Creator.

Why not? A child can do this with rules he/she doesn't understand, yet they trust the wisdom of their parents. You and I can look at any commandment from God and see what would happen to a man/woman or a society when that command is broken right? What if no man broke the commandment "Do not murder", or "Do not steal". We can see the reason such commandments were written.

No man or government has EVER created a perfect society in all human existence, yet we can analyze the commandments given to Moses and see that if all those were followed to a T that society would be PERFECT. You say men wrote the Bible out of their own knowledge, I counter with NO MAN has ever had that perfect knowledge.

I don't see how conforming myself to fit a mold that all I can prove is that it came from man. I don't understand why I have to believe these thing based completely on man's word and hope that everything turns out good in some far off eternity that I can't fathom.

I can't prove that there will be/or is a heaven and hell. These are concepts that I had implanted on my heart and in my head from birth. These were concepts planted into my head by man.

The only thing I know that I was given by the Creator was the here and now and the experiences at this moment. I am too busy observing and learning from my experiences right now to be worried about my a future in heaven, a new earth, and/or hell.

It all boils down to "trust", what is it about the Word of God that you feel is deceitful? I trust it, I see it's genius. Not to say that you aren't capable of logic, I just want to know where you see huge gaps or deceit.

THIS is what he gave me. I take THIS and will appreciate every second of it instead of hoping, wishing, or banking on something that I can't prove exists in the future.

To me, all those wasting their time working and believing it will be better are fulfilling "satan's" plan and wasting what has been given to them by "god" which is RIGHT NOW.

No momma, (what is your name? lol, I'm Ron.), what he gave you is a SOUL, in fact an ETERNAL one. What "this" is is but a brief season. An atheist and myself will both die someday. If the atheist is right about God NEITHER of us will know about it. If I am right, I've gained life for eternity and the atheist has lost his soul forever. Who is wagering more??

And secondly, to live for the "right now" in defiance of God's will when that God tells you the punishment ahead of time for such is like trading Bill Gates fortune for a quarter? That to me isn't logical. No man or woman would EVER make that trade if it were real money would they?

Thirdly, what type of person will I be if I keep the 10 commandments? What would society be if they all kept them in vain? We'd all turn to dust when we die, but our society would have no murder, no theft, no adultery, no alcoholism, no drug addiction, no lies, et cetera.

I can answer this question bc I have no limitations set forth on my thoughts such as the bible. The first time I broke relations with the Creator was when I was told by a human that I should be ashamed and sure enough, I felt guilt and shame. The stealing of the gum was indeed the first time I remember feeling embarrassed and ashamed... my innocent was broken. Not because I had actually done wrong, but because wrong had been defined in my head by another.

And THIS is precisely why I love God.^^^ He has PROMISED me that if I confess, even such a small sin as petty theft that He will no longer hold that against me, that he will "remember my sin no more". Man, that is love! He's promised me that if I ONLY humble myself, and admit I did wrong and ask for forgiveness thet it will be granted, I no longer have to feel ashamed in myself. he also makes that SMAE promise for huge sins like murder, yes, I may have an Earthly punishment, but my creator doesn't judge me for that if I confess. That my friend is perfect love, that in itself is so beautiful that I can never repay that mercy shown to me. I'm utterly in awe.

I still maintain that having the driver's lisence does not affect in any way my ability to follow the rules of the road. The driver's lisence has no bearing whatsoever on my driving ability or my ability to follow the rules of the road. It is a card that has only been put in place to try and control me by posting my mistakes to my identity.

We agree, I never implied or meant to imply that the liscense made you a good driver. I used that example to say that your acceptance of such also meant that you accepted the fact that you could be punished by the courts for violating their laws placed on you when you drive on the roads should you choose to disregard the laws. We agree, that plastic coated card has nothing to do with one's ability to handle an automobile on the road.



[edit on 20-8-2008 by NOTurTypical]

Originally posted by zerbot565
as in singularity it hold everything yet is one ,

The simplest Big Bang cosmological model of the universe contains a causal singularity at the start of time (t=0), where all timelike geodesics have no extensions into the past. Extrapolating backward to this hypothetical time 0 results in a universe of size 0 in all spatial dimensions, infinite density, infinite temperature, and infinite space-time curvature.

dosent same apply to god ,
god is everything.

nothing excluded ?

No, God is eternal, He had no beginning, if He did then something else would have created Him. Therefore He would be a creation Himself and not The Creator.

Originally posted by NOTurTypicalThe EVIDENCES I used to come to my personal conclusion that the Holy Bible isn't another book, but the inspired Word of God:

1. Scientific Revelations - The Bible reveals scientific knowledge not known by the authors or science of the day at the time the book was authored, example, Isaiah stating the Earth was round.

The verse you are refering to is Isaiah 40:22 which says "It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:"

The meaning of "circle" referring to the heliocentric spherical globe that we know the earth to be today is highly arguable though since the ancient Mesopotamian view of the world was one that was a flat circular disc.

Not to mention Revelations 7:1 says the four corners of the earth which actually supports the latter view rather than the former.

Matthew 4:8 also speaks of satan taking jesus to the highest mountain to show him the all the kingdoms of the world.

The two verses I just referred to concur with the ancient view of the world as does the verse in Isaiah, however the only one that could concur with what we know the earth to be now is in Isaiah.

So, all that verse does AT best is show that the new testament can be cast out as being scientifically correct, but chances are that since it still is an accurate view of how the world was viewed then and couple that with the other two verses that paint the picture of a flat earth, there is no evidence of advanced scientific knowledge by the bible's authors to be found here.

2. Prophecies - The bible predicts events in the future that are 100% correct, only an omnipotent author could reveal the future.

Such as? If the future has not occurred yet, how can you make this claim?

3. Unity of the books - The Holy Bible was written over 15 CENTURIES by 40 authors, many of them never met eachother, yet their works have perfect harmony with eachother.

No they are not... I will send you a U2U at another time when it is not so late of a list that I have come up with that shows MAJOR blunders that can only mean one of two things... either it was specifically altered to appear to flow harmoniously but those who REALLY want to know and don't buy things hook line and sinker will see OR some of the authors were completely retarded and would you buy something as fact based only on the word of a person who is mentally challenged?

Again... I am thankful that I can use a tool I KNOW didn't come from man, but rather from the Creator (who/whatever that Creator may be) or I may have never seen these things.

4. Ability to transfor lives I can attest to this on a PERSONAL level.

The movie "Lord of the Rings" did the same thing for me. Opened my eyes to a lot of truth in the world on a personal level. Right moment and right time to watch it.

The Matrix did the same for many people.

Muslims claim the same, as do many followers of other religions.

Dr. Phil and Oprah have even accomplished the same. Does this mean I should worship them?

5. The testimony of Jesus Christ The Bible is declared to be the Word of God by Jesus Christ himself. I have NO reason whatsoever to believe Jesus Christ to be a liar.

No you don't bc you have never met the man. You have felt the power of suggestion, but you have had no face to face conversations with this man and this I know....

Am I lying?


Blind faith? nah, of course not

[edit on 20-8-2008 by justamomma]

Momma..

THIS is what he gave me. I take THIS and will appreciate every second of it instead of hoping, wishing, or banking on something that I can't prove exists in the future.

I missed this earlier somehow. Believe me, I truly appreciate EVERY second of my life as well, I thank God everyday that I have another day to live on this amazing creation of His, and I cannot wait to see heaven, or the new Earth that won't be infected by sin. Take time one of these days and listen to the testimony of people who were given a glimpse of heaven is a vision, or who went there as part of a "near-death" experience.

I have ALWAYS stated this: For those of us who are destined for Hell, Earth is as close to heaven as they will ever experience. Those of us who's destiny is heaven, Earth is as close to hell as we'll ever experience.

Let that sink in for a second. Life on Earth is but a blink of an eye compared to eternity, after the first trillion years of eternity we'll have NO MEMORY whatsoever of Earth. So why not put our faith in our Creator? Will his commandments cause me harm? No, they will protect me from causing either myself, or my neighbor misery. They are given to me by God for my protection and the protection of my fellow man. Just as I blindly followed my father and mothers wisdom growing up, I also follow the wisdom of my heavenly father. Some say his laws are "shackles" that prevent me from "fun".

I counter that quite often what seems fun at the time turns out to be bitter pain in the end. yes, partying is a lot of fun, but what is alcoholism many years down the road? I watched my stepmother turn into a woman she wasn't when I met her, I watched her vomit blood. Sure, drugs are fun at first, what happens at the end? One loses possibly their marriage, their house, their jobs, and likely their life.

Satan is the father of lies, and the angel of light. His "joys" of life are ALWAYS sweet to the taste, yet when digested they are very, very bitter and lead to death. I trust God to protect me from that sorrow.

Come on people. This guy hit the nail on the head. I Don't believe in the biblical "GOD" but this paradoxal figure can only exist in two instances: He's/she omnipotent but not benevolent; He's/she benevolent but not omnipotent. No creature that was both would allow the universe to be as dispicable as it is.