If you think that God is omnipotent, then do not deny evil from it!

God being evil is a pretty foolish notion. An artist doesn't strive for perfection in his art, and then destroy it the next day.

And where does satan fit in this, there would be no point to his existance if God were evil.

"for the wages of sin is death" - so by God's own mandate, he would have to die?

it just doesn't work.

Originally posted by Safandjaro

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by Safandjaro

 

What you need to keep in mind is that it was Adam who was created with free will, not you.
They made a choice and had a bad reaction from gaining knowledge of evil, from the tree they were warned not to eat from.
Our ancient ancestors fell under the power of evil and all their descendants are born under that same evil.
You can become a new creation by being born again, and so find relief from that penalty that you find your self under.

But Why didn't God fixed this with Adam, after thousands of years and billions of lost people we are facing the same choice as Adam and have to believe in some unverifyable act of Jesus while being deceived by legions of well organised demons working on our "free will" not to believe this.

We "children of God" are the victims of some stupid war between God and satan. Like here on earth innocent inhabitants are always the victims of the wars between the men of power.

There will be evil in every powerstructure and God's heaven is no exception which is proven by his conflict with satan.

What is better, a child that grows up on the street, self educates himself, and turns his life around, or a child that grows up in a middle income family and continues the tradition?

The first child improves, where the second does not. The first knows what it is like to make your own way, where the second was born into it.

If adam and eve had not sinned, and we lived in the garden now, we would be ignorant, but be his servants.

After they sinned, we now have the opportunity to serve him willingly, which further glorifies him.

So back to the analogy, instead of staying on the same rung in life, we now can rise farther up because of their disobediance.

reply to post by Bob Sholtz

Originally posted by Bob Sholtz
God being evil is a pretty foolish notion. An artist doesn't strive for perfection in his art, and then destroy it the next day.

Dear Bob,

I am not sure if you are referring to the christian God (IVHV or Jehovah), but if you are, please keep in mind that he did indeed that according to the story of Noah and the great flood.

Besides, I recommend that you read through these posts less selectively, because if you would have, you would know that concept of "evil" is merely an subjective viewpoint into some event, which is neither evil nor good. Good and Evil does not exists. Only God exists, and we are living in it, as parts of it.

It has been said previously in this thread, that from our viewpoint God's actions may appear as evil for us. For example, your girl- or boyfriend may suddenly die in horrible way and you keep asking why, and you may not understand it and consider that God is evil, because it took away your loved one.

So, from our perspective God can act evil. Plus we have to remember that it clearly stoods in the bible that God created good and evil.

Sincerely,

-v

reply to post by pause4thought

But evil was never "created". Evil is the absence of goodness. That is why it is equated with darkness, the absence of light.

I've started a thread about this if you want to comment on it

God created light. He permitted darkness to occur

Darkness cannot be just evil (negative) because God can dwell in it.

Exodus 20:20-22

20 And Moses said unto the people, Fear not: for God is come to prove you, and that his fear may be before your faces, that ye sin not.21 And the people stood afar off, and Moses drew near unto the thick darkness where God was.22 And the LORD said unto Moses, Thus thou shalt say unto the children of Israel, Ye have seen that I have talked with you from heaven.

1 Kings 8:10-14

10 And it came to pass, when the priests were come out of the holy place, that the cloud filled the house of the LORD,11 So that the priests could not stand to minister because of the cloud: for the glory of the LORD had filled the house of the LORD.12 Then spake Solomon, The LORD said that he would dwell in the thick darkness.13 I have surely built thee an house to dwell in, a settled place for thee to abide in for ever.14 And the king turned his face about, and blessed all the congregation of Israel:

There is more than one meaning for darkness in the Bible,apart from the obvious,yet its clear that God can live with it and use it.

Originally posted by v01i0


Dear Bob,

I am not sure if you are referring to the christian God (IVHV or Jehovah), but if you are, please keep in mind that he did indeed that according to the story of Noah and the great flood.

Umm I think it was pretty much destroyed already and by us NOT God. All he did was purge all the garbage out to fix it.

Bob makes a lot of sense where you wish to INSIST God created evil when the only part of that he made is the option for to choose it, one man decided in the garden he wanted.

Besides, I recommend that you read through these posts less selectively, because if you would have, you would know that concept of "evil" is merely an subjective viewpoint into some event, which is neither evil nor good. Good and Evil does not exists. Only God exists, and we are living in it, as parts of it.

Sounds like your source of truth about God is not the same as Bobs. Where are you getting yours from?

It has been said previously in this thread, that from our viewpoint God's actions may appear as evil for us. For example, your girl- or boyfriend may suddenly die in horrible way and you keep asking why, and you may not understand it and consider that God is evil, because it took away your loved one.

I don't think this applies to Bob if I am not mistaken he is not suggesting this either.

So, from our perspective God can act evil. Plus we have to remember that it clearly stoods in the bible that God created good and evil.

No this isn't true either we have seen as much information posted to suggest the contrary and you are only being selective about which interpretation or translation is valid. Evil in the context as he writes WE would call it such as the illustration you give above. Evil is the state of being the state of everything in direct proportion to the distance it has from God and moving away in that direction away from God is moving in the direction of greater and greater evil. Bob is right you are wrong

Why doen't anyone wan to attribute evil to Satan? Seems people are VERY quick to attribute evil to God, but virtually no one is willing to admit that Satan could be the reason behind evil.

reply to post by v01i0

Well God certainly can tell a big lie and it seems get away with it. He told Adam that if he ate of the fruit from the tree he would surely die that day. Adam did eat the fruit, and he lived on for some 930 years. On the other hand the Serpent was telling the truth when he told Eve she would not die. She didn't if we can believe that she mothered the human race.

But why God and not Gods? Genesis 1:26. In this verse it clearly states in OUR image. Furthermore the name of the Moon God in the Middle East was Yah or Iah. The plural letter in Egyptian was 'W'. YW - YahWeh can be found in many Egyptian temples and it is telling us that they saw God as plural - at least double. Muslims still worship this Moon God. In Arabic names often take 'Al' in front, so we get Al-Yah - 'The God'. They still place a moon crescent on the top of their mosques.

reply to post by XIDIXIDIX

Originally posted by XIDIXIDIX
Sounds like your source of truth about God is not the same as Bobs. Where are you getting yours from?

Not anywhere specified. I've formed my conception of God by my experience. I take no one's word for it; The only way one can reach God is by his own thought. One who 'believes' is easily misguided, but he who 'knows', never strays. I am not saying that I do know, I am just getting there

Originally posted by XIDIXIDIX
Bob is right you are wrong

Well, what can I say? You obviously hold an opinion which I respect. Don't be so quick to judge right and wrong, for it may be that you will have to re-establish your opinions later.

Originally posted by XIDIXIDIX
you are only being selective about which interpretation or translation is valid.

And you of course know which one is the valid translation? I am not relying on any of these translations, I've ended up in this conclusion through my own reasoning; I merely quoted these translation to point out that even the bible says so. Well, anyone can obviously pick the translation that fits their opinions, no

reply to post by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
Why doen't anyone wan to attribute evil to Satan? Seems people are VERY quick to attribute evil to God, but virtually no one is willing to admit that Satan could be the reason behind evil.

I don't attribute evil to Satan because Satan is merely one part of God in my opinion. Feel free to disagree however. But remember, if you think that God created everything, then...

reply to post by Malankhkare

Originally posted by Malankhkare
But why God and not Gods?

Very valid point you are making here. But I guess this is a reference to holy trinity; the father, the mother and son. The father is spirit, the thought that gives form in mother (matter) and that creates son, which is whatever being or thing we see around.

Be well,

-v

[edit on 26-8-2008 by v01i0]

reply to post by v01i0

I don't attribute evil to Satan because Satan is merely one part of God in my opinion. Feel free to disagree however. But remember, if you think that God created everything, then...

God created me, so by your reasoning I could go on a mass murdering spree and it shouldn't be attributed to me?

If you were on the jury at my trial I could claim that God did it and you've vote to acquit?

God created me with free will, same as Satan, I can choose to listen to Gods commandments and do good in His eyes, or I can follow my sinful desires and lie, steal, commit adultery, even murder.

Originally posted by Malankhkare
reply to post by v01i0

 

Well God certainly can tell a big lie and it seems get away with it. He told Adam that if he ate of the fruit from the tree he would surely die that day. Adam did eat the fruit, and he lived on for some 930 years. On the other hand the Serpent was telling the truth when he told Eve she would not die. She didn't if we can believe that she mothered the human race.

But why God and not Gods? Genesis 1:26. In this verse it clearly states in OUR image. Furthermore the name of the Moon God in the Middle East was Yah or Iah. The plural letter in Egyptian was 'W'. YW - YahWeh can be found in many Egyptian temples and it is telling us that they saw God as plural - at least double. Muslims still worship this Moon God. In Arabic names often take 'Al' in front, so we get Al-Yah - 'The God'. They still place a moon crescent on the top of their mosques.

A day to the Lord is 1,000 years, and a thousand years but a day. It was a day to God.

When you are an eternal being what is 930 Earth years? A blink?

reply to post by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
God created me, so by your reasoning I could go on a mass murdering spree and it shouldn't be attributed to me?

I fail to see how you managed to put these words into my mouth?

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
God created me with free will

You don't have free will, merely a freedom of choice.

Sincerely,

-v

Originally posted by v01i0

I've formed my conception of God

Yeah, I get that and I don't think Bob created his God borrowing some of the aspects of another as you have and THAT IS exactly what you have done. You have taken "parts" of the Christian Bible and mingled them with your own "concept" of God, why I don't know, perhaps you got lazy and couldn't "form" your own "conception" of someone to play the evil doer or who knows when your way, your path to God is by the seat of your pants.

Unless you already assume you are ahead of the great philosphers theologians of our times who have already contemplated what or who God is but with all due respect, I don't see you matching wits with platos worst student much less have a constructive dialogue about God when God is whatever YOU have ultimately decided. I think it is the opinion of most who DO believe in Satan, that you serve him well.

I don't attribute evil to Satan because Satan is merely one part of God in my opinion. Feel free to disagree however. But remember, if you think that God created everything, then...

This suggests that you believe in Satan though and if you do, then you believe in the God that created him. If you believe in the God that created him then why not believe what is said ABOUT him? Why cherry pick?

I see you havn't read that link from stanford university I left you. If you are going to attempt to invent God as your opinions see fit, then it would give you some idea just how complex that would be. If anything it would give you a basis for logical debate at an intellectual level befitting such an entity.

Originally posted by Malankhkare
reply to post by v01i0

 

Well God certainly can tell a big lie and it seems get away with it. He told Adam that if he ate of the fruit from the tree he would surely die that day. Adam did eat the fruit, and he lived on for some 930 years. On the other hand the Serpent was telling the truth when he told Eve she would not die. She didn't if we can believe that she mothered the human race.

But why God and not Gods? Genesis 1:26. In this verse it clearly states in OUR image. Furthermore the name of the Moon God in the Middle East was Yah or Iah. The plural letter in Egyptian was 'W'. YW - YahWeh can be found in many Egyptian temples and it is telling us that they saw God as plural - at least double. Muslims still worship this Moon God. In Arabic names often take 'Al' in front, so we get Al-Yah - 'The God'. They still place a moon crescent on the top of their mosques.

God of the bible never said there are no other gods. What He said was "Thou shalt have no other gods before ME" -- so imo God was recognizing the fact there were other gods, as for myself, they are gods I simply choose to not worship. I have only one God. To each his own, right?

reply to post by Bombeni


Oh yes. This God appearing in bible (called YVHV or something) appears to be jealous towards the other gods; he is quoted saying: "I am the God and there are no other Gods". From reality, we know that there are plenty of so called gods, or forces that in a way reaches beyond the comprehension of ancient man. In this respect, modern man is not far better, or even worse.

reply to post by XIDIXIDIX

Originally posted by XIDIXIDIX

Unless you already assume you are ahead of the great philosphers theologians of our times who have already contemplated what...

Well I do. I work with my own reality and they worked theirs. Their reality is not mine; yes, I am subjective and proud of it. The worst thing one can do is to swallow thoughts of other people without not processing it by oneself.

Originally posted by XIDIXIDIX
I think it is the opinion of most who DO believe in Satan, that you serve him well.

Thank you, I do take pride from that; I rather serve the 'lightbringer' with my eyes mind and heart open, enjoying the seeds of truth which I find now and then, than are being slave of blind faith of teachings of some other people, some other institutions that has quite a record of pure malicousness.

I must say tho, that if we are created as Gods images, how then you say we differiate from God when we are evil?

Being evil doesen't mean acting against will of god, but against the will of other people.

Evil is not something that exists, as already been agreed on here on this thread. Evil is conception of action that is harmful from our view point, not necessarily from God's viewpoint.

Therefore I in the beginning of this thread made the claim that God is Evil, from our perspective; everytime when harmful things happen to us, we see this, if we are not blinded by the other blind. Because God is everything. It is in the every Atom and every flash of Energy.

I am getting frustrated because the main problem with the people here posting is that they fail to see what I mean: I don't mean that God is universally evil. But God may appear evil from our perspective, and we cannot deny that from him. Yeah, maybe the topic of this thread is bit confusing in this context, but we have to do with it because I cannot alter it anymore.

If someone is still confused, please ask a direct question and I'll answer to my best capacity.

Sincerely yours,

-v

reply to post by v01i0



I would like to add that while God said "No other gods before me" imo these so-called other Gods are created gods, i.e. the sun god, the moon god etc. I believe these other gods are created by people while the true God created people themselves.

reply to post by v01i0

I fail to see how you managed to put these words into my mouth?

Did I claim you stated them? No, I said by "your reasoning". Your reasoning for not attributing 'evil to Satan' was this:

I don't attribute evil to Satan because Satan is merely one part of God in my opinion. Feel free to disagree however. But remember, if you think that God created everything, then...

The above quote you are stating that God created Satan, and Satan is a part of God.

So, by your own reasoning any evil I commit shouldn't be attributed to me since I too am a creation of God.

Originally posted by Bombeni
reply to post by v01i0

 

I would like to add that while God said "No other gods before me" imo these so-called other Gods are created gods, i.e. the sun god, the moon god etc. I believe these other gods are created by people while the true God created people themselves.

What the poster fails to admit is YHWH gave these commands to Moses the mountain while his fellow tribesmen were at the base of the mountain fashioning
a golden calf to worship. God was giving this command to men who were 'worshiping false Gods' that they were taught during 400 years of captivity in Egypt. Basically he was saying to mankind:

"I Am the only God, do not worship any other", he was absolutely NOT admitting there were many Gods.

Originally posted by v01i0
Hello once again,

I hate to see how people and religious groups strip their gods from omnipotency by denying evil from the God. It is like stealing 50% of God's properties if he cannot be evil.

What comes to the christianity, many people seem to forget that God as also evil; God created Satan, and when Moses performed miracles in Egypt, many people tend to forget that it was God whom hardened Pharaoh's heart not to let Hebrews leave the slavery.

So then, people still keep asking why does God allow such evil in world? Answer of course is that God is evil (as well as good). Those who deny evil from God are denying God.

So all the religious sects and cults that are promoting the concept of God being only good, are in fact liars and denying the God's omnipotency.

Happy thoughts

-v

I don't know about anyone else's religion but in mine the Gods are just as flawed as we are. They just get greater consequences for what they do because if they do something wrong it effects more than when we do something wrong.

I was a hard core christian once. Then I read the rest of the bible that was taken out.

I realised that even if the bible is false we will never know because the heavy influence of right wing christians and pro jewish in the government will make revelations happen. Interesting how the people who rant and rave about their anti-christ become it.

Please dont call me anti semetic. I never understood why it was okay to talk about fluff bunnies, nazis, muslims, and islam in a bad way but the minute you say anything against the Jewish nation and you are a bad person.

WWII is over. Some of my ancestors died in american concentration camps. Doesn't mean I am void of doing anything wrong.

Sorry, that was a bit of a rant.

reply to post by NOTurTypical


Yes I understand that the "other gods" are man-made.