Russia: Poland risks attack because of US missiles

Lets look at who is STARTING these conflicts... intentionally even. When US backed Georgia attacked a city of Russians, they knew EXACTLY what Russia's response was going to be, and they did it anyways. The US is trying to put missles in Poland KNOWING that Russia WILL retaliate, yet it seems they don't seem to mind these days.

So yes, Russia is by no means innocent, but the US is picking the fight.

Anybody who seriously thinks that the US missile defence shield is merely a defensive system should get their head checked out....that statement in itself is propaganda to the public to support the move.

The missile defence shield is a first strike and second strike system, it can be used either way and you would be stupid to only have a defencive ability with it so close to a major and large possible foe.

Russia knows this, which is why they are pissed off. They are not stupid, as much as the US media may portray them to be. They know what going on both infront and behind the scenes.

Just have a look at the following article -

www.nrdc.org...

This February 2005 NRDC paper pieces together evidence from an array of sources to show that the United States is still deploying 480 nuclear weapons in Europe. Until now, most observers believed there were no more than half that many still left on the continent. The continuing presence of these weapons irritates relations with Russia, undermines global efforts to dissuade other nations from developing nuclear weapons, and impedes NATO's post-Cold War evolution. The Bush administration and the NATO alliance should address this issue as a matter of global nuclear security and remove all U.S. nuclear weapons from Europe.

Now you tell me if Russia has a valid reason for concern or not?

Im surprised that they havent surrounded their borders with active mobile missile launshers aimed at the west already. I know I would in that situation.

The amount of nuclear war heads in europe, so close to russia would be a constant threat to them.

The US and the West are by far a larger threat to Russia, than Iraq,Iran,North Korea and Al Qaeda ever where against the US....just think about that for a second.



Getting into a conflict against the Eastern Hemisphere is literally suicide, it'd throw the world, our current civilisation and way of life back into the dark ages, the world wouldnt recover for centuries to come if that.

I you think realistically about the possible outcomes, is war really such a good thing?

Lets all just get along hey, forget our difference and share a drink at the bar, otherwise we may just be sharing shovels to help each other dig bunkers

Originally posted by vor78
reply to post by d11_m_na_c05

 

That's one key consideration here. The US isn't intending to put up a ton of them. It appears as though there will only be 10. Russia probably has over 1,000 ground-based ICBMs, let alone the number of nuclear warheads housed in ballistic missile subs or assigned to long-range bomber squadrons. In total, the numbers I've seen put it somewhere around 3,300 deployed warheads.

So at best, this system in Poland would be capable of nullifying something less than 1% of Russia's entire active ICBM-based nuclear arsenal (and probably closer to 0.1% in practice). Its not a threat to Russia in its current form. If we were talking about 100-200 interceptors, yeah, it might be different.



[edit on 15-8-2008 by vor78]

As far as Russia's nuclear assets, I have read/heard anything from around 7000 to 16000.

According to Wik it's on the lower end:

en.wikipedia.org...


As far as this Georgia conflict, I don't mean to come across as anti-American but I have no sympathy for any aspirations built on any NWO agenda or aspirations for oil hegemony. The current president of Georgia has been mentioning the new world order quite a bit lately.. what do you think he means by 'that'? I'm all for democracy but not a NWO globalist "version" of it.

Just stumbled across this:

en.rian.ru...

South Ossetia and Abkhazia will seek independence from Tbilisi under international law, the leaders of Georgia's two rebel regions said Thursday at a joint news conference in Moscow.

Right now, Russia is basically parked at Gori which is just south of South Ossetia and thumbing their noses at everyone. Basically Russia is saying you can keep Georgia but you ain't getting South Ossetia or any oil control.. nope... sorry.


Until South Ossetia, Abkhazia, express interest by general elect that they want to be free from Russia -then- I will support 'democracy' for this area but until then no thank you. Georgia needs to sit down and shut up because that part of the world belongs to Russia and we have no business "drawing borders" for ANY other reason.

Also, someone is going to have to reconcile the aggression on the South Ossetians by Georgia and PLEASE don't tell me it was done in the name of "democracy"







BTW, I don 't know if this is true but Georgia is 60% Moslem!


[edit on 15-8-2008 by ViewFromTheStars]

Originally posted by Daedalus24

Russia: Poland risks attack because of US missiles

news.yahoo.com

MOSCOW – A top Russian general said Friday that Poland's agreement to accept a U.S. missile defense battery exposes ex-communist nation to attack, possibly by nuclear weapons, the Interfax news agency reported.

The statement by Gen. Anatoly Nogovitsyn is the strongest threat that Russia has issued against the plans to put missile defense elements in former Soviet satellite nations.

(visit the link for the full news article)

Poland has nothing to worry about.
Just ignore Putin and his generals.
We have Polands back.

Poland has nothing to worry about.
Just ignore Putin and his generals.
We have Polands back.

The US cant have everybody's "back". Just because you may live in the US dont mean you should support it 100%, being able to see what is right and wrong in regard to geopolitical decisions not by your country of origin is important.

Being a global bully doesnt win you many friends. Even Rome was a powerful empire at its time but even that came crashing down in the end.

Cant you people see that Bush is dragging america down and hard?

What good has Bush done for the american people in his two terms in office?

How many people can honestly say that they are better off now than before Bush came into office?

I think this past month has not only destroyed Russia's image as an ally but show how desperate they are to prove how strong they think they are. Russia's making some pretty serious threats here...100% chance of nukes being used against poland if this missilie system goes up!? Russia has either lost its mind or is so war hungry that its going to attack all it can. I dont understand why the United Nations arent slamming this country into a pulp right now diplomatically because in the end when the nukes are being dropped, it wont be iran or iraq we had to worry about- it will be our so called "ally" Russia. If polands bombed and the fact that they're still attacking Georgia- please believe we'll be going to war with Russia. This will be the cold war. I think Russia needs a reality check and frankly needs to be shown that they aren't running the show. They seem like they dont care what they're told, they're going to do it. Thats not good considering the arsenal of nukes Russia does have. Granted its nothing like Israel or the US but it takes only one nuke to kill millions.

I hope Russia comes to it's senses before it's too late. Russia still would not stand a chance against the U.S. Now again...I don't really have any idea if this so called missile system is beneficial but Russia dare not destroy the U.S.'s missile system- That would be as dumb as Georgia attacking Russia. The U.S. would retaliate far worse than Russia did with Georgia. Guaranteed.

look at this map and you will understand why russia is pissd of, the americans are putting their weapons everywhere, this us globle take over by the americans, they want to be the world police, american people pay for this war so does china, the dollar wont last long as you see from this year the markets are crushing. russia is just waiting until things get even worse for the american market.




i just hope, that little serbia doesn't spark world war 3

Time for a National Draft. All men and woman 19-50. Build the largest military the world has seen and just wait.................. The rest of the world will go broke trying to make sense of what we are doing.

**SIGH****

Sometimes I feel it is pointless to try and explain origins of certain conflicts and current situations when you get ignorant one sided replies without any thought being put into the response, rather than a genuine meanful debate.

I dont mind if ATS'ers dont see eye to eye on issues, but a thorough and coherant dialogue for and against is what we should be doing here, not war,war,bomb Russia the bad guy. Explain to me why they are the bad guy and why the US is the good guy?

anyway, heres some more info Id like to share with you all realting to the subject matter.

www.rense.com...

WHATS REALLY BEEN GOING ON IN THE RUSSIAN-GEORGIAN CONFLICT
A First Hand Report By An American in Russia

Note: This article was written by a retired Lt.-Col. in the U.S. military, who is currently residing in Russia. His article here helps clear up much of the misinformation people have been fed by the sadistic folks in Washington who are trying to promote WWIII.

In 1991, South Ossetia was promised independence from the Soviet Union, and the Georgian Republic. However, when Georgia became independent it saw an opportunity to grab some land, and the terminals for two major oil pipelines. Since Georgia is essentially bankrupt and an economic basket case, they saw this as a viable option.

It should also be understood that contrary to the 30 years old CIA report that is being circulated, Georgia is now over 60% Moslem, with Moslems controlling the government, and South Ossetia - which is surrounded on three sides by Georgia - is over 80% Orthodox Christian. This is something else that amazes me about Bush's choice of "allies."

They essentially invaded South Ossetia and installed a rather brutal military government. The South Ossetians did not want to be grabbed and they fought back, and in the fighting some Russian cities were damaged just across the border and there were a number of civilian casualties. Russia essentially said "Quit damaging our cities" and sent Russian troops to see that no more Russian cities were damaged. They became the main component in a small international (with Azerbaizhan and Tdjikistan) peacekeeping force in the region.

Comes last Thursday and the Georgians attack the Russians in South Ossetia. Once again, they are trying to isolate and grab those two oil terminals. As a preparatory move to this, they began shelling the Russian forces stationed in the area as peacekeepers...and once again overshot and hit two small Russian towns across the border.

The Russians come in to evacuate the Russian wounded and put fresh troops in place to keep the Georgians and South Ossetians from tearing up Russian cities and killing more Russian civilians in their own country. They also intended to stop a relentless Katucha rocket bombardment and standard artillery bombardment of the South Ossetian capital (which has no military significance) and has already reduced it to a pile of gravel and fine white powder -- with over 2,000 known civilian casualties, mostly the elderly and children.
The Russians tried to send in relief supplies (for all parties) and the Georgians tried to sink the unarmed, civilian transport ship. A Russian Krivak class frigate that was on a routine patrol out of Sevastopol picked up the SOS and responded. An 120 ft. missile boat is not much of a match for a Krivak class frigate... enough said. The result was splinters and an oil slick but not before the freighter had been seriously damaged and sustained numerous casualties.
The UN is sending in supplies, and no one stops them.

Because there is strong reason to believe that the US has been aiding the Georgians in the fight (just over 1,500 "advisors" on the ground from "Blackwater" that are demonstrable, and massive shipments of US arms and ammunition for the past 18 months) the Russians are suspicious of US aid, especially when it comes aboard military ships and airplanes. Comes the day the US sends aid via civilian vessels, the Russians will have no objections and have made it clear that such aid would be welcomed by all parties.

The French president is involved in hammering out a ceasefire that seems to be holding because the Russians and the Georgians and the South Ossetians all feel that he can be impartial because "he ain't got no dog in this fight." Still the Georgians have not completely ceased their offensive. They recently began shelling a Russian column that was withdrawing from South Ossetia along the only serviceable road in the region. They waited until the column was dead in the middle of the town of Gori before opening fire.

The US is fully aware of who started this and why. They are completely aware of who the aggressor is. It is inconceivable to me how Bush can go to Peking and bow down to the COMMUNIST Chinese and have "most favored nation status with both COMMUNIST CHINA and COMMUNIST VIETNAM and at the same time provoke proxy nut-cases like the Georgians and Ukrainians to attack Russia with the tacit support of the US.

At the moment, Bush is threatening to send a naval task force into South Ossetia under the guise of "humanitarian aid" and has "warned" Russia, through whose territorial waters it will pass not to be "belligerent." This is rather hollow to me. I tend to think sending a helicopter carrier and escort vessels into someone else's waters is belligerent in its own right.

How would the US feel if Russia did this in the Gulf of Mexico and "warned" the US not to be "belligerent." I seem to recall a similar incident in 1962 in Cuba.

There is currently a US infantry brigade set to deploy in Georgia and an unknown number of US military personnel set to airlift in with the "aid." The US flew Georgian troops, who took part in the wanton destruction of the South Ossetian capital into Georgia from Iraq on US transport jets. This has all of the makings of a repeat of what happened in Vietnam in '64 when Lyndon used two faked attacks in the Gulf of Tonkin to justify inundating Southeast Asia with US troops. It has "Henry Kissinger" written all over it.

This situation could get dangerous. It seems like Bush is deliberately trying to provoke a major war with Russia and this is a very bad idea. He is obviously believing his own propaganda about how "weak" Russia is and thinks our oil terminals and those in South Ossetia are easy pickings. If the US fires on, or fires at, a Russian vessel of any kind while they're delivering "aid" there is going to be a war. Nothing can stop it. No head of state could sit for it from any country. The same can be said if the reinforced Georgians resume their campaign of laying waste to South Ossetia and one more shell or rocket falls on a Russian town.

The long as short of it is that Russian forces were wantonly attacked and a defenseless city has been severely damaged. It's still going on and yet Russia is being blamed in the US as "over-reacting.

There was NEVER any intent to occupy Georgia or annex any territory for Russia as Condoleezza Rice is trying to have you believe. The entire operation was set off to STOP aggression by Georgia against a legally-mandated peacekeeping force and against defenseless civilians, and that is a demonstrable fact everywhere but in the US.
The US is now "pressuring" Ukraine to "limit" access by Russian naval vessels to a legitimate Russian naval base at Sovastapol and inciting the Ukrainians to further border raids against Russia. This is also demonstrable. It seems that Bush is determined to start a war with the "evil empire" (that only exists in his delusional mind).

continued next post

continued

US troops are currently landing in Georgia. Estimates are at least one "brigade strength" infantry unit with full equipment. They are joining the
Blackwater and Israeli troops (about 4,000 total) already present. The Bush Naval task force with yet more "aid" is supposedly in route. Whether it will be unchallenged when it enters Russian territorial waters remains to be seen.

So the above quoted report is from a Retired Lt.Colonel of the US military, explaining how hypocritical the US governments actions are.

All he is trying to do is to educate the sheeple of America to see what their government is dragging them into, blindfolded.

There are also been reports of US armaments being found by Russians and being used against Russians. Ive read reports of US citizens being captured by the Russians fighting against them, one in particular mentioned an African American.

Heres some more for you to think about-
www.globalresearch.ca...

Georgians denounce Saakashvili regime’s aggression

The entire responsibility for this fratricidal war, for thousands of children, women and elderly dead people, for the inhabitants of South Ossetia and of Georgia falls exclusively on the current president, on the Parliament and on the government of Georgia.

The irresponsibility and the adventurism of the Saakashvili regime have no limits. There is no doubt the president of Georgia and his team are criminals and must be held responsible. The Georgian Peace Committee, together with all the progressive parties and social movements of Georgia, will struggle to assure that the organizers of this monstrous genocide have a severe and legitimate punishment.

The Georgian Peace Committee declares and asks broad public opinion not to identify the current Georgian leadership with the people of Georgia, with the Georgian nation, and appeals to all to support the Georgian people in the struggle against the criminal regime of Saakashvili.

We appeal to all the political forces of Georgia, the social movements and the people of Georgia to unite in order to free the country from the Russian-phobic and pro-fascist anti-popular regime of Saakashvili!

The Georgian Peace Committee Tbilisi, Aug. 11, 2008

Unofficial translation by the Portuguese Peace Council, edited by Workers World

So we see here above that the people of Georgia themselves are against their own "criminal" government and the actions that the Georgian Government took that resulted in the thousands of deaths.

If the people themselves can see how criminal their government is, why cant Bush?

This just shows how one criminal government (The US) lias's with other criminal governments of the world.

Totaly and utterly disgusting, so much for humanity and feedom of which they all speak of so highly.

This might have been said already, but has it occurred to anyone that maybe the U.S. wants Poland to be attacked?

My personal, unbacked by sources hunch is that the U.S. intentionally let Georgia bring the wrath of the Russian military down upon it. First of all, to gauge response. But second, because Russian troops in Georgia are troops that aren't in Iran.

I believe the U.S. was hoping Russia would become embroiled in a guerrilla war like we face in Iraq and Afghanistan. And I think it was only part one. Poland seems to be next, and Poland has a much, much bigger army than Georgia. Russia will roll over them too, but not without casualties. And more importantly, not without costing a great deal of money and leaving a lot of Russian equipment in need of repairs.

If the other former Soviet countries get sucked into this in the same manner, their combined armed forces (plus Poland) actually outnumber Russia's. Nowhere near the tech, but with unconventional warfare that's irrelevant.

Originally posted by Melbourne_Militia
Anybody who seriously thinks that the US missile defence shield is merely a defensive system should get their head checked out....that statement in itself is propaganda to the public to support the move.

The missile defence shield is a first strike and second strike system, it can be used either way and you would be stupid to only have a defencive ability with it so close to a major and large possible foe.

I am not saying you are incorrect, I am just wondering something here. If this truly were the case, and the missile defense system bases being installed had offensive nuclear missile capability, and there was proof of this, wouldn't Russia already have done something to stop it? I mean .. that is literally the exact same scenario as the Cuban Missile Crisis, exactly the same, and we were minutes away from nuclear war back then. Thank God for Kennedy saving us while he was here, and alive.

Also, what would be the big point of making these installation offensive in capability? We have nuclear ICBM equipped subs encircling the waters of the globe at all times. We have nuclear ICBM land based missles set up all through the contintental United States, Hawaii, and Alaska. We have airplanes which drop precision nuclear bombs, and Aircraft Carriers with them that encircle the globe. You also have the Air bases, spread all throughout the planet with these same nuclear munitions. Why would getting that close with our missiles be necessary in any way shape or form? From my strategist point of view, making them offensive would be a gravely stupid error, totally devoid of sense, or intentionally done to bring about WWIII.

[edit on 8/15/2008 by runetang]

reply to post by Melbourne_Militia


I like your posts. However, I'm a little confused. How did Georgia retaking a part of its internationally recognized land (not that "internationally recognized" means "rightful"), within its own borders, do damage to Russian cities? What cities, and how?

It's a city full of Russians, not a Russian city.

Most South Ossetians have Russian passports - South Ossetia hasn't been part of Georgia except in name since the first civil war Georgia lost. Not to mention the city was also full of Russian peacekeepers.

I have to say, I've never seen such naked propaganda and misinformation from the mainstream Western media before. "Free" or not, it's no less selective in it's reporting and willing to distort the facts than Russia's state propaganda organs.

Kind of chocking to me actually, but the Iraq War was like this in the beginning too - sadly it takes people a while to figure out they've been snookered.

The phony furor over this statement is a typical example.

What the general actually said was: "if we get in a nuclear war wuith the USA we will have to target their base in Poland" but it was reported almost without exception in the western press as: "Russia threatens nuclear attack on Poland."

Sadly our "independent" press seems to be bending over to give the neocons the Cold War Redux they want.

Not so shocking, really - the same investment groups that own the major media outlets own lots of defense stock too.

[edit on 8/15/08 by xmotex]

The Missile defense shield is completely useless to defend against Russia. Too many warheads, subs and bombers.



[edit on 15-8-2008 by TheOracle]

Originally posted by ragnarak
Of course Russia disagrees with it. Russia is getting tired of the US government thinking it can do whatever it wants whenever it wants. (As should us Americans, but I digress.) US missiles are going into Russia's neighborhood while they told them not to. They are doing it anyways without really discussing it. Then Russia wanted to put some bombs in Cuba and the US gets all up in arms about it. Talk about hypocritical.

The US government (and it's people) can't afford to go to war with Russia, Iran, and Iraq. Unless they are seriously demented, which wouldn't surprise me with all the news saying to punish Russia.

If you're going to drivel on platitude after platitude at least get your history straight lest you just sound like some ignorant self-loathing American. The two examples you cite aren't comparable. The Cuban missile crisis came at a time of major ideological differences. The USSR (not Russia mind you) was building missile base(s) at our Communist neighbor next door. These were not defensive installations, ok? That is important. What we are doing in Poland does not have that stench of secrecy and deception that the former situation did. Secondly, the ostensible reason for the missile defense installations in Poland at least sound legitimate; that is, to defend American/European/NATO interests from an attack. Russia's aggression is based on nothing more than its fear that its influence in the region could be eroded even more with these installations. PERIOD.

reply to post by Daedalus24


HAHAHA Anit-American? lol u crack me up!!

If America is the world police then Russia is like Internal Affairs.

Originally posted by kaspermartyrphantom

ACTUALLY...

Mine was posted on this date: posted on 14-8-2008 @ 07:00 PM
Yours was posted on this date: posted on 15-8-2008 @ 06:30 AM

So there Poindexter. Next time, follow the link and check before you let your fingers make an idiot of you.

Hmmm... Ohhhh Really?? (Said as Ace Ventura would have said it)

Your thread started was posted on 15-8-2008 @ 1:00

U.S., Poland sign missile shield deal



But this thread was already in existence for 30 minutes...

This thread started was posted on 15-8-2008 @ 12:30

Russia: Poland risks attack because of US missiles



This thread was not started by me it was started by Daedalus24

So before you attempt to divert a successful thread make sure you get your facts straight.

I know it is annoying when people start similar threads close together but that's because so many likeminded people frequent ATS... Surely that's what makes ATS so great.

I might also warn you that if you call people idiots here you will be warned by the Mods. If you disagree with someone that's fine, but personal attacks are frowned upon.

All the best,

NeoN HaZe

Europe should set up some missile defenses in the United States.

I dont see the difference between that and putting US defenses in Europe.

And like a previous poster stated - there is no difference between missile defense and missile offense. These are deployed weapons, capable of striking deep into foreign territory.

Russia has every right to see this as a US threat. If you dont understand this, turn off the TV and turn on the brain instead.


[edit on 16-8-2008 by Copernicus]

I was listening to a Russian general being interviewed upon BBC Radio 4 this morning, and his explanation was that this has (predictably) been misinterprated.

By putting this ABM system in Poland, they have added themselves to the Russian potential "Strategic Target" list. This is not a threat in itself, it is nothing personal, it is just an aknowledgement that, given certain circumstances, this is something that could be a threat to Russian security in the future. For example, France has a nuclear capability, they also have targets on this list, as does China, India and a host of other places.

You might as well have the headline "France/India/insert country of choice" risks attack, for this is just as valid, given the original premise, a piece of misreporting as the original story.

So, more a case of a"Move along, nothing more to see here" non-story being spun into a "ZOMG! COLD WAR 2" paranoia jag.

[edit on 16-8-2008 by Lozzo]