9/11 Conspiracy theorists...

Originally posted by weedwhacker
reply to post by GoldenFleece

 

Well....GF....then please tell me what I am missing.

You seem to be focused on narrow aspects of their posts -- the DFDRs and CVRs from AAL 11 and UAL 175.

What Crystalbaraland and EvilAxis are saying goes way beyond that. I mean this in a complimentary way, because you're one of the few debunkers whom I have faith will someday say, "OK, enough -- the evidence is overwhelming. I finally agree that 9/11 was an inside job."

But you have to be open to everything they're saying, not just the parts you think can be explained or dismissed.

reply to post by GoldenFleece


See...GF.....thee was no way to recover, in any way, the CVR or DFDR from AL 11 or UAL175.

I wish there was a way....it would help in this discussion. BUT, as you know, not much was left after the Towers collapsed.

AND, nothing was readable from the CVR or DFDR of either jet, that hit the Towers...in fact, nothing was found, in the rubble that were the Towers.

No surprise there, after the collapses......

'course, people will try to pin this as part of the 'Plan'....but that's just static.....

This was unprecedented....so therefore, the 'recorders' were never designed to withstand such devastation. YES, they were desgned to withstand a lot, but not this!

Edit for two spelling mistakes....

[edit on 8/11/0808 by weedwhacker]

Weed, you're doing it again -- selectively focusing on narrow aspects of arguments. Go back and read EvilAxis' last post. Black boxes are made to withstand 3,400 Gs and 2,000 degrees F. How many CVRs or DFDRs or have you ever known that weren't recovered? Do you know of even one, let alone four?

Not only that, but several FDNY firefighters/rescue workers claimed they found 3 of the 4 black boxes and turned them over to the FBI. Even the NTSB alluded to having them in their possession. There's absolutely no reason these rescue workers would lie about this.

The entire 9/11 official story stinks to high heaven and you know it.

Atta wasn't exactly a religious fanatic, after all he was drinking beers, visiting strip clubs and taking coc aine before 9/11. Is that part of the Martyr lifestyle? I also think Osama uses religious belief as a tool to promote his own agenda and in actual fact isn't as religious as he likes makes out.



[edit on 11-8-2008 by Insolubrious]

Originally posted by BloodRedSky
Okay if you all know that 9/11 was one big inside job, why are you still alive?

Because if we were to start dying, that would bring attention and acceptance to the theories that they did this,

Because there are WAY too many to all be killed,

Because they are actively pouring ridicule and derision onto the movement, succeeding in pulling wool over eyes, so why bother,

Because they have bought and paid for shills working the boards and putting out false information to muddy things,

Because they have accomplished their goals regardless,

Because they will take complete control before enough people are convinced and moved to do something to stop them.

Lots of reasons.

Originally posted by Insolubrious
I also think Osama uses religious belief as a tool to promote his own agenda and in actual fact isn't as religious as he likes makes out.



[edit on 11-8-2008 by Insolubrious]

Youre right, he does. With so many interperitations on the Koran its easy for someone with a militant following to twist some of it to fit his needs (aka Osama). Ive recently become very interested in the Muslim religion, culture and identity in the world, and read somewhere that someone had found the oldest dated Koran writings ever. In these writings there were so many differences, one example : instead of the virgins that wait for those who die, its his wife and family.

Maybe Osama is religous and just following his twisted version of the Koran, maybe not, who knows?

Originally posted by Amaterasu

Originally posted by BloodRedSky
Okay if you all know that 9/11 was one big inside job, why are you still alive?

Because if we were to start dying, that would bring attention and acceptance to the theories that they did this,



Lots of reasons.

The only attention you guys really get is on message boards like this one. If they could pull off 911 they could certainly get rid of you without drawing too much attention in the real world.

Because apparantly, like me, you too believe anything that you read.

reply to post by BloodRedSky


Easy, as well, to find different interpretations of the Bible, no?

How many 'sects' of Christianity are they, by now? Over two dozen?

How many 'sects' of Islam....about three or four.

So, which religion is more 'interpretative'???

BTW, I happen to think ALL religions are destructive to mankind.

Being spiritual, that's different. Some so-called 'religions' are not organized is the way that Christianity and Islam are....THESE OTHER 'faiths' actually are more spiritual in nature, and don't require an authority figure in order to prosper.

Originally posted by BloodRedSky

Originally posted by Amaterasu

Originally posted by BloodRedSky
Okay if you all know that 9/11 was one big inside job, why are you still alive?

Because if we were to start dying, that would bring attention and acceptance to the theories that they did this,



Lots of reasons.

The only attention you guys really get is on message boards like this one. If they could pull off 911 they could certainly get rid of you without drawing too much attention in the real world.

FYI... Most of us have friends and families, the fact that we're dying would be noticed, would be discussed, would be put together. The reason it is on the web that these things get discussed is that the MSM is controlled and they avoid any data that contradict their Official Conspiracy Theory, and surely would seldom report such deaths, but still, it would be figured out.

And... I noticed you did not address ANY of my other points, deleting them between this point and my last statement.

Because apparantly, like me, you too believe anything that you read.

No... I correlate all data I have access to. And apparently you do not. Either that or you already know you're speaking out of your nether orifice and have an agenda.

Originally posted by EvilAxis
Things get no better when we look at the black boxes from the planes that struck the towers. "No recorders were recovered from the World Trade Center," according to the NTSB. This in itself is very unusual. But firefighter Nicholas DeMasi stated in 2003 that he saw the boxes and in 2004 rescue worker Mike Bellone claims to have seen them as well.

"It's extremely rare that we don't get the recorders back... I can't remember another case which we did not recover the recorders." Ted Lopatkiewicz, NTSB.

As I commented before, the further you dig - the more you find.

Bellone claims agents were adamant about keeping the discovery a secret. "They confronted me and told me not to say anything," recalls Bellone, referring to one of three reddish-orange boxes with two white stripes he saw in the back of DeMasi's ATV. "I said give me a good reason? When they couldn't, I told them I wouldn't shut up about it. "Why should I? I have nothing to hide and nothing to gain. It's the truth and Nick and I are sticking to our story as we always have." Bellone said he and DeMasi were not the only 911 rescue workers to see the black boxes. He said there were several other witnesses and knows first hand they have been silenced by federal agents. "I know two or three others saw what went down, but they are not talking," added Bellone. "They got to those guys after they talked to me. The only reason I can figure they are trying to hide the truth is that the government knows it screwed up and the recorders would prove it."

Greg Szymanski, The Arctic Beacon

What's more Mayor Giuliani was reported to have one of the black boxes in his hands. Mysteriously the video was never shown and the matter was quietly dropped:

reply to post by EvilAxis


EvilAxis.....

the CVR and DFDR from each airplane may have been lost, and completely unrecoverable, in the building collapses, in NYC.

The Dan Rather clip is an example of....well, nothing.

Giuliani has shown himself to be someone who wished to exploit the mere fact that he happened to be Mayor, at the time...2001...and win praise for it....eventually, with an eye to the White House. We've seen what that brought him.

An 'eyewitness' account of a 'burnt orange box, with two white stripes' seems credible.....except, if you look at most recovered data recorders form other accident scenes.....especially when fire is involved, it seems more like this 'eyewitness' was describing something he or she saw, either online, or from another accident video prior to 2001...

I could be inaccurate here, but the data recorders are roughly the size of about two or three loaves of bread........no, here's a better mental image....two of those twelve-packs of sodas you see in the Supermarket.

The dimensions I describe are rough, but I think I'm pretty close...can look it up, if you wish.

Point is....you COULD hold the thing in your hands.....but with forces involved after an horrendous crash, even if found, they would be quite smashed up....they aren't invulnerable. To imagine the Mayor of NYC having his hands on one is....well, incredible. If found, they are treated with utmost care, until transported to a lab where they can be properly examined.

reply to post by EvilAxis


deleted a double.....

[edit on 8/14/0808 by weedwhacker]

reply to post by GoldenFleece


GF...I just re-read the post Im currently replying to.

You may wish to see my response to 'EvilAxis', and the Dan Rather clip...

What we have, is the possiblility of 3 of the 4 recorders being recovered?

Hearsay? Yet, both recorders from AAL77, at the Pentagon, and UAL93, in Shanksville.....not gone missing??? By some nefarious forces?

Please, I'd like to know the WHO, WHEN and WHERE of the NY FD recovery of these 'boxes'. AND, then the chain of command of custody.....someone would have spoken up, by now?

Seriously....what is the main purpose of the NYFD? To save lives. Are all of their officers trained in recovering the 'black boxes'. I don't know, maybe someone can come forward....use 'Anonymous'...and tell us.

Airport Fire and Rescue personnel....yes, they are well trained in aircraft operations....they are specialized.

All FireFighters are heroes.....but, they aren't all, nor can they all be trained for EVERY contingency....I think the main point is to save lives.

That comes first, secondary is the recorders. THAT is left, usually, to the NTSB....

Just my opinions....

Originally posted by weedwhacker.
That comes first, secondary is the recorders. THAT is left, usually, to the NTSB....

Just my opinions....

But you are forgetting that the site was also a crime scene and you had FBI special resonse team there, and they know what to look for. They were also in charge of the investigation since it was a crime scene.

www.fbi.gov...

[edit on 15-8-2008 by ULTIMA1]

Originally posted by weedwhacker
reply to post by GoldenFleece

 

Please, I'd like to know the WHO, WHEN and WHERE of the NY FD recovery of these 'boxes'. AND, then the chain of command of custody.....someone would have spoken up, by now?

The answers are three posts above you.

Someone did speak up. Rescue worker/firefighter Mike Bellone and Nick DeMasi.

Since we both agree that firefighters are heroes, will you concede that these guys had absolutely no reason to lie and there must be something very wrong if the government is covering-up recovery of the WTC black boxes?

C'mon Weed, you can only dismiss and justify so much. There's no hope for the professional debunkers who swarm these threads like locusts, but aren't you having some serious doubts about the official story by now? If you're not, I'm gonna have to give you a harsher assessment next time you ask why people think you're a disinfo agent.

reply to post by ULTIMA1


ULTIMA....I saw YOUR link....but I was responding to what someone ELSE posted....about Mayor Guiliani 'holding the box in his hands'...

Really think the FBI would let him do that, for a 'photo op'???

reply to post by GoldenFleece


GF....I'd be the first in line to eat crow if it happened to come out that the 'recorders' were actually recovered in Manhattan, and that there was a huge cover-up.

Not sure who you mentioned, as FRs....only two??

Not quibbling, just asking....what about the other few hundred???

Also....if the Gov't wished to 'cover-up' then WHY was there AAL77 recorder info? OR, UAL 93 info?

See....if 'THEY' can cook that info, as has been alleged....then why not go whole hog, and create more false "INFO"....from AAL11 and UAL175?

Would have helped them greatly, in any cover-up....right?

It all happened, same day, within a few hours' time.

LOOK...this is emotional for me. I was IN the industry. I'm not here to attempt to de-rail, or anything....I just see stuff that boggles my mind, since I DO know a little something about how airplanes work.

I had to live through all of the (my opinion) bogus extra "security" ever since....pilots faced with the indignity of having to take their shoes off (after Dec 2001)....and nail-clippers being confiscated. It is ridiculous.

At my airline, it was a requirement that every F/A carry a corkscrew. Seriously, this was in their Flight Manuals. Along with a watch and a flashlight (and their Manuals)....

AFTER 9/11....no more corkscrews!!! So, Catering boarded ONE corkscrew....as part of supplying every airplane's First Class equipment!!!

ANYONE see the idiocy of this??

We dealt with the plastic 'cutlery' for a time....then, gradually metal was re-introduced...madness. Knee-Jerk reactions....typical of a 'System of Fear' to sell a 'war' in the Middle East!!

That was intended as background info.....

Thing is....IF the recorders survived at all, in Manhattan....who knows about it? Who would be responsible for 'secreting' them?

IF they were found by FRs....who then turned them over to the FBI....no one has come forward, after all these years to say..."Hey! Just a minute....I found a recorder, and turned it into the FBI....why is it not being mentioned?"

See? I am a logical person....I could be convinced with overwhelming evidence.....but my mind keeps asking questions.....

Sorry for writing so much, ask again if you need more clarity.....

reply to post by weedwhacker

Damn, even pilots have to take their shoes off? That's the height of insanity. I'd have no problem with pilots being armed, except it still wouldn't protect us from our real enemies.

Like I said, there's no reason for Bellone and DeMasi to have lied (even though I've seen some despicable attempts by debunkers to smear Bellone.) The book they wrote inspired me to start looking into 9/11. I can just imagine the FBI trying to silence these burly Italian firefighters who organized an ATV Ground Zero brigade and spent months ferrying people and equipment around. Not likely. These are the real American heroes, not only as rescue workers, but by their refusal to be intimidated by a corrupt government. Then there are the real cowards, like the EPA's Christie Whitman, who covered-up the highly toxic air in NYC, which they're now saying lasted for months. Many firefighters and rescue workers will have much shorter lives because of the government's failure to meet it's most basic obligation.

Anyway, here's more of that article:

Bellone said he and DeMasi were not the only 911 rescue workers to see the black boxes. He said there were several other witnesses and knows first hand they have been silenced by federal agents.

"I know two or three others saw what went down, but they are not talking," added Bellone. "They got to those guys after they talked to me. The only reason I can figure they are trying to hide the truth is that the government knows it screwed up and the recorders would prove it."

Asked to give names of the other witnesses, he said he wouldn't break a fellow-worker's confidence, privacy and firm desire to remain anonymous.

"I can tell you this, though, it was all very strange. I worked on the spaceship Columbia clean-up and you know when something important is found and when something is not" he recalled, saying the day the 'black boxes' were secretly carted away agents acted like "something big was going down."

Bellone also recalled never learning the FBI names as this type of personal contact and information wasn't exchanged between the civilian workers and government officials working side-by-side at ground zero.

"We worked together, but nobody knew their names," added Bellone. "They had on their FBI jackets, but I'm sure I could pick them out of a line-up or recognize their pictures."

The pair's bombshell accusations blows a big hole in the official story as well as the findings in the recent 911 Commission report. In Chapter 1, footnote 76, there is the sole but definitive reference to the airline "black boxes":

"The CVR's and the FDR's (voice and flight data recorders) from American 11 and United 175 were not found."

Asked if DeMasi and Bellone were questioned or subpoenaed, Commission spokesman Al Felzenberg said:

"I can't tell you now if he was is one of the 1,200 people we interviewed or if the book was one of the countless ones we researched. We explored every lead, but I will try to find out if we talked with him and get back to you"

However, Bellone said he and DeMasi never were contacted by Commission members or asked to appear regarding their statements even though the book was published well before the hearings commenced.

And it's amazing with a story of such importance that in over a year since the book surfaced almost nobody else has called them either. It's hard to imagine a story with such magnitude has not been thoroughly checked out unless the mainstream press purposely ignored it.

"I have been contacted by only one newspaper reporter from the Philadelphia Daily News. That's it," he said, referring to an October 2004 story by reporter William Bunch, recapping DeMasi's book statements as well as the usual official denials.

www.arcticbeacon.citymaker.com...

BTW Weed, I've got a great book for you. It's called "Incident at Sakhalin", about KAL 007. The author is a pilot who spent 10 years researching it. Mind-blowing story that'll help you understand how recovering the black boxes from AA 77 and UA 93 might not mean as much as you think.




[edit on 16-8-2008 by GoldenFleece]

Originally posted by GoldenFleece
BTW Weed, I've got a great book for you. It's called "Incident at Sakhalin", about KAL 007. The author is a pilot who spent 10 years researching it. Mind-blowing story that'll help you understand how recovering the black boxes from AA 77 and UA 93 might not mean as much as you think.

There is a movie out called "Tailspin" that is about KAL 007. It even shows about the guys intercepting the communication between the MIG and ground control.

Then it shows about how they had to decide if they should notify NSA.

Originally posted by weedwhacker
The Dan Rather clip is an example of....well, nothing.

The Mayor of New York himself says he has the flight recorder in his paws, is about to announce the fact to the nation but whoops technical hitch - the video won't run, the subject is quickly dropped, never mentioned again and all the flight recorders are lost.

Putting aside everything else you know about 9/11, this event alone should stop you in your tracks.

But to you, weedwhacker, it is nothing. Then I have to conclude everything to you is nothing. You are impervious to all contrary information and therefore hermetically sealed from giving credence to anything that might challenge the government's story.

Yes, Giuliani is an inveterate liar and tried to exploit 9/11 to his own ends - but what bearing does that have upon the matter? Same applies to Bush, Rumsfeld, Cheney et al. Does this mean everything they did or said is meaningless for the purpose of examining 9/11?

Dan Rather introduces a pre-recorded video of Giuliani showing one of the black boxes and announcing its discovery. Nobody's suggesting Giuliani found it himself or was responsible for identifying it - that would be absurd. The point is, for this video to have been made, the black box (or something purporting to be it) was officially found. But at the last possible moment it is whisked away, never to be explained or mentioned again.

Originally posted by weedwhacker
Also....if the Gov't wished to 'cover-up' then WHY was there AAL77 recorder info? OR, UAL 93 info?

BECAUSE the Gov't wished to 'cover-up'!
Are you suggesting that if all eight of the flight data recorders were lost the government's story would be more credible?

What's more, it appears they have gone the whole hog as you put it by cooking the data - the AA77 data file has the plane too high to strike lightpoles or Pentagon.

Originally posted by weedwhacker
no one has come forward, after all these years to say..."Hey! Just a minute....I found a recorder, and turned it into the FBI....why is it not being mentioned?"

You have ridden roughshod over the facts yet again. As GF and I reminded you - despite the FBI's attempt to silence them, FRs DID come forward and say just that. Only a few independent journalists would touch the story so it never became a problem for the FBI.

I discovered the Dan Rather clip just before making my last post. I can find an equally suspicious nugget of information about 9/11 every day of the week, year-in-year-out, because the official story is made up almost entirely of this stuff.

We can tussle over every individual piece and in each case we have to admit - yes, there's room for doubt. All four black boxes at the WTC could have been not only destroyed but completely lost; the supposedly reputable firemen could have been lying or mistaken when they published the claim that they saw them; they could have been trying to cause trouble by claiming the FBI told them to shut up about it; the Mayor could have decided on his own initiative to present to the world some object as a recovered black box (for what reason we can't guess) and the video of him doing so could have somehow gone AWOL just before transmission.

If I went to a casino, placed my dollar in a slot machine and pulled the handle I could win the jackpot on my first try. Very improbable things happen. But if I won the jackpot time-after-time I'd be accused of cheating and either thrown out or arrested.

The contradictions, anomalies, obfuscations, and "accidental" destruction of evidence run so thick and deep through every bit of the Complete 9/11 Timeline, the official story is astronomically improbable and should be thrown out.

[edit on 16-8-2008 by EvilAxis]