9/11 Conspiracy theorists...

reply to post by silent thunder


You forgot about the truth movement.

The truth movement has to keep an open mind on both sides and weed through all the lies and distortions to find the evidence that is being buried.

With out the evidences we dont have the truth.

And the Government has very little evidences to support the story of 911.



[edit on 8/9/2008 by cashlink]

Originally posted by BloodRedSky

Originally posted by silent thunder
The most interesting thing about this debate to me is that it is colored so much by what people WANT to believe.

People who are "anti-conspiracy" often seem to have made up their minds based on the fact that they consider it monstrous for the government to have done this. They simply don't want to believe its possible for the government to be so evil, so they choose not to.

On the other side, many "pro-conspiracy" people's response is equally as knee-jerk: they WANT to believe the government is evil for whatever reason, that the system is rotten to the core, and they WANT it to be a cover-up. So they choose to believe THAT. Maybe it fits in with their other NWO beliefs, maybe it makes them feel "on the ball" to know something secret, who knows.

Personally, I don't have an opinion. I'm not a structural engineer, I cannot understand the nuances of the various arguments, and I haven't done much research on it. I've read some stuff from both the pro- and the anti-conspiracy viewpoints that strikes me as convincing, but I ultimately have no way of evaluating the evidence.

I would encourage everyone on both sides to spend some time sincerely and deeply questioning their own motives for believing whatever it is they belive. Did you arrive at your belief through careful consideration of the evidence, or did you pick your belief first and then try to justify it with evidence later? Before you answer, spend some time turning this question over in your mind. It's not as easy to answer as it might seem. Do you have the strength of character to introspect in this way? The truth (within yourself) might suprise you.

This would all be more credible to me if you all could agree on just one theory...But yes, I know our government is capable of horrendous acts, it just doesnt seem like the smartest route to start a war, there are so many other options than blowing down the Twin Towers.

Who is "you all" ?

If you read my post more carefully, you will see that I do not stake out an opinion on either side of the issue.

All I ask is that people (on both sides of the issue) spend some time introspecting about their motives for believing why they believe what they do.

Originally posted by BloodRedSky

Originally posted by silent thunder

This would all be more credible to me if you all could agree on just one theory...But yes, I know our government is capable of horrendous acts, it just doesnt seem like the smartest route to start a war, there are so many other options than blowing down the Twin Towers.

You are correct in that you can have your opinion, and others can have theirs, but let me ask you this. Without a new Pearl Harbor of some sort, would you have willingly, supported a trillion dollar war with Iraq and Afghanistan?

For me, there are too many coincidences on that day, to make me believe it was 19 hijackers, with box cutters, and that 4 persons with said box cutters, could really take over a jet liner without much much more resistance.

Sorry, by you all I meant everyone with different theories that have no real connection to each other. I wasnt directing it towards you, I read your post clearly.

I guess nothing is really being proven on either side, and Im not trying to convey that I have any new or genius ideas about it, Im just trying to defend my ideas like everyone else.

Originally posted by saturnsrings

Originally posted by BloodRedSky

Originally posted by silent thunder

This would all be more credible to me if you all could agree on just one theory...But yes, I know our government is capable of horrendous acts, it just doesnt seem like the smartest route to start a war, there are so many other options than blowing down the Twin Towers.

You are correct in that you can have your opinion, and others can have theirs, but let me ask you this. Without a new Pearl Harbor of some sort, would you have willingly, supported a trillion dollar war with Iraq and Afghanistan?

For me, there are too many coincidences on that day, to make me believe it was 19 hijackers, with box cutters, and that 4 persons with said box cutters, could really take over a jet liner without much much more resistance.

I dont support the war in Iraq at all. Never have. I never saw a connection with 9/11 and the invasion of Iraq, I think it was a really lame excuse for our brilliant president to try and have his moment and put dollars in his friends pockets.

Although I think it would have been great to follow through in Afghanistan and get Osama, who I think everyone can agree was a threat to everyone.

reply to post by BloodRedSky


Controlled demolition of WTC 1, 2 and 7 are basically proven facts.
www.ae911truth.org...

Flight 93 crash site is basically proven a lie.
www.abovetopsecret.com...

We all know that planes DID hit the buildings.

No, we don't. There's a lot of anomalies in the witnesses, the planes themselves, the speeds, the flight paths and the crashes. When you can prove without a doubt planes were used, then you can say "We all know that planes DID hit the buildings."

The Pentagon getting hit by a plane is also full of anomalies. The withholding of information and videos by the FBI is very suspicious.

I think you need to do a little more research on 9/11 before believing "religious fanatics" attacked America.

The government had every reason to carry out 9/11-well, at least every reason for their gain. They can now take away more of your "rights", just as they have. More control over you(and I) is what it boils down to. Money means nothing to them, they have plenty. And the war in Iraq...well I'm still trying to figure out their real motive, so I don't have an opinion on that.

[edit on 10-8-2008 by Niobis]

reply to post by Niobis


You are right!

And I believe we went to war for the oil Companys.
It was all about the oil... the money... the Greed! the power..

you need to wake up pal do some research stop watching main stream media news the people that own the news you watch helped pull off 911 it was done by israel the home of the zionist i know this makes no sence to you ,you are so far behind the 8 ball you can see nothing else but believe me you are so wrong its sad with all the info out there are still people that think like you

Originally posted by ULTIMA1
Well poeple like me who try to find the truth have posted the evidence that the government had plenty of prior warnings but did nothing to stop the attacks.

See, now that's something I can believe - that the gov't either willingly ignored the threats or, perhaps more likely!, that's they're too blasted incompetent to have acted on any credible threat. We can look back today, years later, and say "Why didn't they notice that??", play armchair quarterback if you will, but c'mon. We're talking about a guy who can't pronounce half the words that leave his mouth correctly, an inner circle more leaky than an old rowboat, and a group so consumed with the thought of power as a divine right that they don't even try to hide it.

Our government is led by a bunch of idiots. Evil idiots, perhaps, but idiots nonetheless. I wouldn't be surprised if they ignored a credible threat to get the Patriot Act passed any more than I'd be surprised that they just didn't notice the signs because something shiny distracted them.

Missiles, drone planes, controlled demo - this group of imbeciles? Yeah, not so much.

Originally posted by BloodRedSky
I would like to start by saying that I have read the theories, the impossible speed theory, the implosion theory, etc, etc, etc...

Attrocities happen in the world on an almost daily basis, some are covered on news outlets, but unfortunately most are not. We live in a country where anything and everything passes as "news", so when a true tragedy on such a massive scale happens here (no, not Paris Hiltons dog running away) the media's on it like flies on...well, you know.

Just because such things are uncommon here in the states, it's easy for some people to blame it on a conspiracy. In my opinion though, it was a horrible event carried out by religous fanatics, not the president.

and even if there president carried out these acts they are still religous just as bush a christian.

so i dont get when you say religous fanatics...


are you saying that they attacked america bc of religion thats the reason for that comment?

reply to post by anachryon


idiots they aren't! they have a meticulous precise plan, with fallback options and all, and if there's one thing government doesn't do, it's make mistakes!

and to BloodRedSky, have you read the Iron Mountain report?

www.mega.nu:8080...

[edit on 10-8-2008 by adrenochrome]

Originally posted by anachryon
See, now that's something I can believe - that the gov't either willingly ignored the threats or, perhaps more likely!, that's they're too blasted incompetent to have acted on any credible threat.

Bush is not too incompetent, i mean he got all everybody to agree with him that we needed to go to war.

Also you forget his first company was an oil company with Bin lauden family members.

Originally posted by adrenochrome
reply to post by anachryon

 

idiots they aren't! they have a meticulous precise plan, with fallback options and all, and if there's one thing government doesn't do, it's make mistakes!

If they had a meticulous, precise plan....there would be no leaks, no holes in the story, nothing to question.
I'll grant you that it remains a possibility that "they" may think they have a grand scheme going on, whether related to 9/11 or otherwise, but just take a look at how much confidence the average American has in their own government. Look at how much of a joke they are to the rest of the world. I'm still on the side that they're complete morons.

It is clear to me that there is no black and white here. We can't point the finger at just one man, it would be impossible. While I don't think it was Bush or Chaney (ALONE), I do believe they were complicit AT LEAST in the same way FDR was concerning Pearl Harbor. Lets face it we could have just as long a conversation on that or the JFK issue. Just the leaked tapes and VOICE PROOF, that these guys saw 911 to their favor, and some have been caught on tape suggesting another type event.

I think there were many factions that were in on 911. I doubt we could find just one man responsible. If there were factions in our government, then they were acting in secrecy and this would leave most of the administration in the clear.

I have looked at the data, and perhaps even if a building could pancake to the ground, the odds of it happening twice in an hour, when this type of fall has never been witnessed before, is too astounding for belief.

Explain building 7
explain why all the tapes around the Pentagon were all pulled by the FBI
explain....

ah well...you can't without doing some crappola magic to make it seem possible.

hell i can make 1=2 if you dont know the rules.

I don't know who did it, dont know how it was done, but I do smell the lies in the official explanations.



[edit on 10-8-2008 by _Heretic]

[edit on 10-8-2008 by _Heretic]

It's so sad that the entire discussion has been railroaded into one about controlled demolition and missing planes. Just like the JFK assassination turned into a magic bullet -- and look where it got us.

I don't know whether or not the towers came down from just the airplanes. But that doesn't matter. What matters is that the military stood down, that fighter jets weren't scrambled until it was too late, and even then they were inexplicably directed out over the ocean.

That over an hour after we knew airplanes were being used as missiles, we allowed the Pentagon to be struck, instead of just shooting the damn plane down with a surface-to-air missile as it came in. If the military doesn't know that plane is going to crash into the empty, reinforced wing of the building, there's no way it gets close enough for even the debris to rain down on that building.

What matters is the Sec. of Transportation telling of Chaney's mysterious order in the bunker. "You're damn right the orders still stand!"

What matters are the dozens of simultaneous war games going on that morning, simulating the exact same attacks, that Rumsfeld is on tape admitting to on the floor of Congress. "Is this real-world or exercise?!"

That P-Tech, owned by a Saudi on the terrorist watch list had unfettered access to the FAA's air traffic control systems for two years before the attack. And that the FBI agents who tried to investigate it were stonewalled.

What matters is Sibel Edmonds.

What matters is Huffman Aviation loaning planes to Atta and being caught smuggling drugs.

What matters is the planting of evidence, the magical passport that fluttered through the fireball and proved which terrorists were on the plane. And Atta's will, and instructions how to fly the plane, that were planted in Atta's luggage. And how fast the suspect list was on CNN. And how half of them are still alive and no one's bothered to update the list. How the plans for the Afghani war were drawn up months ahead of time. How the Patriot Act was drawn up months ahead of time. How the only two Senators who could have blocked the Patriot Act got anthrax in the mail. How ABC News tried to tell us it came from Iraq.

I could keep going. These are the things that matter. There's irrefutable evidence that, if factions of our own government weren't behind the attacks, then at the least the attacks were only successful because of security breaches on an unimaginable scale, so as to render our government criminally negligent.

So don't tell me about stupid towers and whether or not there were bombs. I don't care. It's a red herring, and the fact that it's the first thing everyone immediately jumps to just proves how well it's worked. Wake up. But no one's going to wake up. Because you're all fixated on this meaningless eviscerating minutia.

Originally posted by silent thunder
The most interesting thing about this debate to me is that it is colored so much by what people WANT to believe.

On the other side, many "pro-conspiracy" people's response is equally as knee-jerk: they WANT to believe the government is evil for whatever reason, that the system is rotten to the core, and they WANT it to be a cover-up. So they choose to believe THAT. Maybe it fits in with their other NWO beliefs, maybe it makes them feel "on the ball" to know something secret, who knows.

This is totally untrue and an unfair assumption. Who would want to believe such a thing? I spent six solid months researching everything before I arrived at a conclusion. I felt sick for months afterwards.

Originally posted by silent thunder
Personally, I don't have an opinion. I'm not a structural engineer, I cannot understand the nuances of the various arguments, and I haven't done much research on it.

You don't have an opinion about 9/11 because you haven't done the research, but you do have an opinion about the people who have done the research? How fair is that?

Do you have to be a structural engineer to realize that if the government themselves never bothered to address the issue of WTC 7 in the 9/11 Commission Report and 7 years later, still can't explain it's collapse, that something is seriously wrong?

Do you have to be a demolitions expert to know that if 5 "dancing Israelis" were arrested on 9/11 driving a van(s) "packed with explosives" and also had circled maps of the 9/11 sites along with box cutters, fake passports and who later confessed on Israeli TV that they were sent to "document the event", that something is seriously wrong?

Do you have to be a airline crash investigator to see with your own eyes that there was no wreckage at either the Pentagon or Pennsylvania crash site in order to realize that something is seriously wrong?

Do you have to be a forensics analyst to know that if no hijackers, let alone any Arab names, were on any initial airline passenger manifest -- and six or seven of the "hijackers were reported to be alive -- that something is seriously wrong?

Do you have to be an airline pilot to realize that if several of the so-called hijacker pilots could not fly -- in one case, couldn't even rent a Cessna the month before because he "could not fly at all" (according to the check ride pilot) that something is seriously wrong?

Originally posted by silent thunder
I've read some stuff from both the pro- and the anti-conspiracy viewpoints that strikes me as convincing, but I ultimately have no way of evaluating the evidence.

What makes you think you have to be an expert in multiple disciplines to evaluate the evidence? You're not a psychologist either, but you've formed an opinion about the people who in some cases have spent thousands of hours researching 9/11. Have you at least considered the opinions of people who are experts in their field? (the professionals and link referred to in the second post of this thread.)

Originally posted by silent thunder
I would encourage everyone on both sides to spend some time sincerely and deeply questioning their own motives for believing whatever it is they belive.

I would encourage you to thoroughly research 9/11 before you arrive at any assumptions about the people who have done the work. Why haven't you done this seven years later?

I most certainly did not arrive at such a horrific conclusion first, which I'm just now searching for the evidence to justify my conclusion.

That's an enormous insult to even imply such a thing. If you ever decide to research 9/11, you'll discover the evidence that points to a government conspiracy is voluminous and overwhelming.

reply to post by BloodRedSky

You have to remember that the Government is not to be trusted and / or government knows no reason, that is why we have the second amendment.
Your reasoning about there would be a better way to do it or a less costly way of doing it just does not hold water. Your Government knows no reason, that is how we ended up in the situation we are in now! examples include:
Deficit, nafta , cafta, Waco, Randy Weaver, NWO/operation Vampire killer 2000, State dept 7277, Rarely if ever applying the " Hate crime" law to blacks when they commit more violent crime against white people than the other way around. The list goes on and on.

Originally posted by ULTIMA1

Originally posted by BloodRedSky
But why would they need to identify the wreckage?

Becasue part of a avaition crime scene (as the 9/11 site are) there must be a proper crime scene investigation.

Part of that investigation is to identify the wreakage.

If you don't mind me asking, how do you know there must be a proper crime scene investigation? Are you former/current FBI or are you relying on things you read/heard? Thanks in advance.

Originally posted by White Chapel
If you don't mind me asking, how do you know there must be a proper crime scene investigation?

Well i was a federal police officer with the DoD for 12 years.

According to the law, anytime a aviation accident is considered a crime scene (as the 9/11 crash sites are) then there has to be an investigation.

The FBI becomes the lead investigating agency with the NTSB providing tecnical assistance.


911commission.gov...

By law, the FBI becomes the lead investigative agency when airline crashes are the result of a criminal act, and the NTSB provides support when requested. [37] However, the families were advised by FBI officials that the FBI is investigating only the terrorists. Why, then, have we heard nothing from the NTSB?

According to Mary Schiavo, former Inspector General of the Department of Transportation, "In every single aviation disaster, whether there was criminal activity or not, in every single one in the course of aviation history it has been followed -- not only where necessary a national criminal investigation -- but also a National Transportation Safety [Board] investigation into what went wrong in the aviation system so that it never happens again." [38] NTSB experts would examine flight and data recorders, and ATC radar tracking data, as well as evaluate the transcripts of air controller-pilot conversations and study air traffic control service on September 11th. They would have also collected airframe
wreckage at the scenes and interviewed eye witnesses. Finally, the NTSB would have assessed survival factors, based on documentation of impact forces, emergency planning and crash-fire-rescue efforts, [39] all of which would have contributed to a better understanding of what happened that morning.

[edit on 10-8-2008 by ULTIMA1]

Originally posted by BloodRedSky
it just doesnt seem like the smartest route to start a war, there are so many other options than blowing down the Twin Towers.

It wasnt to "just start a war" it was to get people to have an endless enemy so the military industrial complex never runs out of a reason to sell and make arms, it was a corporate agenda to bring the right wing fully onto there side,it was to crash the economy so in the long run we all work for less money, it was to take away our freedoms, it was to remove the teeth from American people so we in the long run will let the corporate do what they will.

It was about finally taming the American people into cowering boot-lickers. It was about finally killing the great American middle class. The wars we are waging are not only for profit, but to stir that hornets nest in the ME hard and vigorously so in the future we will have some real terrorists events.

Its about fleecing America of the rest of her wealth. They will have billions of people in China and India very soon that will make America's buying power seem weak. To do that you FIRST need to tame America, and remove the teeth from her middle class.

Its about the big corporate picture. The spider is spinning her web and needs to be stepped on before its too late for the USA.