Russia/Georgia Situation News & Updates

Originally posted by ZeroKnowledge
Russia has nothing to gain. Russian leaders - do.
A: It would stop this
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Baku_pipelines.svg
which is a threat to current energy-"black-mailing" policy.

How would it stop the pipeline if it does not line within the disputed border areas in question. In order to block the pipeline, Russia would have to occupy at least half of Georgia. So far it has shown no intention to do this.

If the pipeline is really what Russia was after all this time, then why didn't Russia occupy the territory on which it lies after last year's war. Russian troops could have easily overrun Georgia. Certainly now is no better time to accomplish this than last year.


And to call Azerbaijan's pipeline a threat to Russian energy export business is an overstatement. There will be high demand for Russia energy in Europe one way or the other. And who do you consider Russia to be "blackmailing"?

Originally posted by ZeroKnowledge
B: Russian leaders (aka Putin and those behind him) clearly stated that they want Saakashvilli out. And hanged, as a nice bonus. And recent attempt to use Georgian opposition to Saakashvilli failed.

Of course they want him out. Why wouldn't they want him out? US too wants a lot of world leaders out - but it doesn't mean it will act on those interests. Heck many Georgians want the idiot out. As for the hanged part - let the US not be the judge - what with hanging Saddam and letting Milosevic die during the Hague circus and all.

And where is the evidence that Georgian opposition was "used" by Russia, and not genuine?

Originally posted by ZeroKnowledge
By the way, if Russian federation was not interested in war, Kokoyto would not be allowed to talk about moving borders.

Kokoyty is an idiot who doesn't know when to shut up. Russia doesn't really have much control over him and never did. The authorities in South Ossetia are still considerably independent from Russia despite what you may believe.

Originally posted by ZeroKnowledge
Saakashvilli openly said he does not want war.

Saakashvilli openly said he does not want war on August 7, 2008. His troops shelled Tskhinvalli and Russian peacekeepers headquarters less than 24 hours after that, without any warning. I am not even mentioning all the other bull**** he spread since he came to power. His word isn't worth crap.

Originally posted by ZeroKnowledge
Could be lying and he wants to hang by his privates.

He always has a backup plan - hop on the plane and escape to the US, leaving his country to fend for itself. Hey - it worked for the Shah of Iran.

Originally posted by ZeroKnowledge
They are busy threatening and warning Georgia.

Threatening and warning is not the same thing.

Ukraine keeps rearming Georgia – Russian Deputy FM

MOSCOW, August 6 (Itar-Tass) - Russian Deputy Foreign Minister Grigory Karasin believes that Ukraine continues arming Georgia.

“There’s irrefutable evidence that Ukraine continues its arms supplies. They are trying to hide behind various wordings of offensive or non-offensive weapons. Some types of weapons cannot really be called offensive. But an army, which has plenty of these weapons definitely becomes more aggressive. They won’t get away with these tricks,” Karasin said an interview published by the Izvestia daily on Thursday.

He noted that Russia was conducting a direct dialogue with countries that were still rearming Georgia. “We make it clear to them that we will take account of this factor in the general context of bilateral relations,” Karasin went on to say and added that economic sanctions were possible.

“We don’t what things to aggravate that far. The main thing that we are seeking is that people take a responsible approach to arms deliveries to explosive regions,” Karasin stressed.

He also expressed the hope that the Americans would be more cautious in supporting Saakashvili’s regime.

“We constantly exchange views with our partners from the United States. I can assure you that the tonality is changing. There’s no blind support for the present Georgian authorities. There’s understanding that coercive actions are inadmissible in international relations and that this kind of policy leads to a deadlock,” Karasin explained.

He confirmed that Russia hadn’t and didn’t have plans to annex Abkhazia and South Ossetia. “We favor the development of stable relations in south Caucasus. We are helping Tskhinval and Sukhum to develop their economies, the social sphere and education. This year alone Russia will render 8.5 billion roubles worth of financial aid to South Ossetia. We’ve also pledged to protect the security of these countries,” Karasin said.

Interesting...

EDIT: Russia says raises readiness of troops in S.Ossetia

Ukraine -- which wants to join NATO -- is "unfriendly" to Russia by being one of the "most active" arms suppliers to Georgia, Karasin said, adding that Russia would "deliberately thwart" supplies of arms to Tbilisi.

How do you thwart supplies of arms WITHOUT invading? Or this is just all talk and no action will be taken?

[edit on 5-8-2009 by Vitchilo]

Originally posted by john124
Presuming the Russia today people have good intentions, how do you know they're not fooled into reporting one-sided propaganda?

I don't. But they seem concerned about media bias themselves writing articles like that, and at least that's a start. Maybe they won't be so easily fooled. Maybe they'll be careful and look deeper and corroborate sources. I dunno. *shrug*

But I like what I have seen so far. And they are seeking out 911 truth movement people too, which is refreshing.

Oh noes! Russia is angry now..

Russia threatens Ukraine with breach between two countries

Today deputy head of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Russia Grigory Karasin accused Ukraine of unfriendly position of Kyiv about supply of arms to Georgia towards Russia.

“We know countries and firms that are selling arms to Tbilisi. We collect information about its activity. Ukraine is among the most active countries”, he claimed.

According to Grigoriy Karasin, Moscow “has a frank conversation with Kyiv about it”. The deputy Minister states “some other countries arm Tbilisi actively”. “We will continue to talk about our concern in the bilateral contacts with their spokesmen”, the high-ranking diplomat stressed. “We reserve the right to restrict bilateral military and technical cooperation with those states where enterprises and organizations supply Georgia with military production”, Grigoriy Karasin underlined.
“Russia will behave adequately and suppress supply of Georgia with arms”, Korrespondent cites him as saying. “We are taking economic measures against countries or some foreign companies which supply arms and military equipment to Georgia taking into consideration our bilateral relations”, the Russian high-ranking statesman warned.

Maloy, I know this is very very very very unlikely, but let's be crazy warmongerers/doomsayers here for a second. Let's say Ukraine and Russia goes at it for real and full scale, would half of the Ukraine military rebel against the government which finally, Russia would take over Ukraine? Would Russia lose since Ukraine is close to Moscow? Would Russia use nukes if Moscow were to fall, near falling?

From what you were saying, if Russia and Ukraine were to go at it, we would be near WW3.

[edit on 6-8-2009 by Vitchilo]

Russia urges Georgia to sign non-violence pact

MOSCOW, August 6 (RIA Novosti) - Georgia cannot regain the trust of its neighbors until it signs a non-violence treaty with its former republics, Russia's Foreign Ministry spokesman said on Thursday.

Almost exactly a year on from Georgia's attack on South Ossetia, which resulted in a five-day Georgia-Russia war, the two countries have been accusing each other of seeking to raise tensions in the region.

"Despite the failure of their irresponsible venture last August, Tbilisi's authorities, it would appear, have no intention of abandoning their plans to restore Georgia's territorial integrity by force," Andrei Nesterenko told reporters in Moscow.

"We therefore insist that they take on a legal obligation on the non-use of force. Georgia must take on this obligation unconditionally, not with respect to Russia, but to its neighboring republics - South Ossetia and Abkhazia. Only in this way can Tbilisi restore even a minimal level of trust among its neighbors and the international community."

He said the pact must provide clear guarantees for the security of the South Ossetian and Abkhazian peoples, to avoid a repeat of last summer's tragedy.

The spokesman also pledged Russia's continued economic support for the two republics, which it recognizes as independent states. Georgia's military assault crippled South Ossetia's infrastructure, destroyed homes, and claimed hundreds of lives. Most residents of both ex-Georgian republics have Russian citizenship.

"Russia will continue to provide to the brother nations of South Ossetia and Abkhazia through large-scale socio-economic support, in particular to rebuild housing and civilian infrastructure, and also to help guard their state borders."

He said Russian troops in the region are ensuring the republics' security, and creating the necessary conditions for their development. However, Nesterenko highlighted the "many challenges and problems" facing Abkhazia and South Ossetia.

Georgia must change leader, but without Russian interference -MP

MOSCOW, August 6 (RIA Novosti) - Russia is ready to re-start relations with Georgia under a new leadership, but does not intend to interfere to force President Mikheil Saakashvili out, a Russian lawmaker said on Thursday.

The two countries severed ties after their brief war last August, sparked by Georgia's attack on South Ossetia, and Russia's leadership has since insisted it will not engage in dialogue with Georgia's current leader.

The break in relations occurred "on the initiative and due to the fault of the Georgian leadership," Konstantin Kosachyov, Chairman of the State Duma Foreign Affairs Committee, told the Vesti news channel.

The Georgian people "clearly can and must change this leadership, but we will not be involved in this," he said.

Georgia's capital saw mass protests this spring against Saakashvili, whose public support was severely damaged by the disastrous war with Russia and his handling of the country's economic difficulties amid the global crisis.

Kosachyov said the current standoff in relations is "unnatural for the two nations", which are "very close to each other."

So, Russia urges Georgia to sign non-violence pact with South Ossetia and Abkazia, and says it will re-start relations with Georgia under new leadership, but does not intend to interfere to force Saakashvili out.



However, a seemingly deserted Georgian soldier claims US instructors are currently training Georgian soldiers for a war....



“Saakashvili preparing for another war” – deserted Georgian soldier

A soldier who deserted the Georgian army and has now fled to Russia says US instructors are currently training Georgian soldiers for a war – just as they did before Georgia’s assault last year on South Ossetia.



Eduard Korotkov also spoke about Georgia’s military provocations against Russian peacekeepers prior to the Georgia-South Ossetia conflict, the weapons that the US supplied to Georgia, and Georgians’ shooting of POWs during the conflict.


Below is the transcript of what he said:

Eduard Korotkov: My name is Korotkov Eduard Igorevich, born on July 27, 1981. From August 2007 I served in the 4th brigade of the 42nd battalion in the Georgian army as head of my unit, with the rank of junior sergeant.

Question: Did you take part in any actions?

Eduard Korotkov: No, I did not. I had deserted earlier.

Question: You must have served in [Georgian] peacekeeping forces stationed in the Georgian–Ossetian conflict zone, just prior to the war. Please tell about that.

(More in Link provided)


Make of that what you will.

Yushchenko approves Russia's envoy to Ukraine - report

MOSCOW, August 6 (RIA Novosti) - Ukrainian President Viktor Yushchenko has finally accepted Russia's new ambassador to Ukraine, a Russian business daily reported on Thursday.

According to Kommersant the decision is due to be announced in the next few days.

Russia's parliament confirmed in late June Mikhail Zurabov, a former health minister, as the country's ambassador to Ukraine.

The paper said, however, Moscow had considered dispatching the new envoy to Kiev after the January presidential elections, in the hope that there would be a new government to deal with.

Zurabov served as health and social development minister in 2004-2007 and later as a presidential aide. He came under fire in 2005 for reforms to state medical care and transportation benefits, which triggered nationwide protests.

Russia's previous envoy to Ukraine, 70-year-old former premier Viktor Chernomyrdin, was dismissed in early June after eight years in the post, where he witnessed a dramatic deterioration in relations between the former Soviet allies.

Chernomyrdin came under threat of expulsion in February over what Ukrainian authorities said were "undiplomatic" statements critical of Kiev's policies.

Ties between Russia and Ukraine have been strained in recent years, as Ukraine's pro-Western leaders have sought to join NATO and the European Union. Moscow and Kiev have also been embroiled in bitter disputes over natural gas supplies.

If Yushchenko tried to have a war with Russia, I imagine the scenarios, if Yuschenko did not have the Ukrainians on side in a "rally around leader in war" exercise would range from a uprising or coup against him, at worse, a civil war.


The one thing going for Yuschenko would be to rally the Ukrainians in a nationalistic exercise against Russia, but it would not be the whole population, might not be the majority of population.


I like to think like Maloy, that Yuschenko is not a psychopath like Saakashvili, and that a war would not happen.

About gas pipelines, the EU got an agreement with Ukraine last week in which the Ukraine will get 1.2 billion (as some people call them, to me it's 1200 million) Euros from the World Bank and from the European Reconstruction and Development Bank to modernise their distribution structure and to allow them to pay the Russian gas at market prices.
Source

Russia and Turkey have reached an agreement ("in principle") to let the South Stream pipeline to go through Turkish territorial waters, and Putin's visit to Ankara today could see the signing of the deal.
Source

“Biden is simply a man who has trouble controlling his mouth” – NY scholar


From The Link:

Georgia’s invasion created a new reality: the independence of Abkhazia and South Ossetia. Professor of Russian Studies at New York University Stephen Cohen talks with RT on what lessons have been learned from the war.



RT: You were one of the very few American scholars, if not the only one, to label the war in South Ossetia that took place last August as a proxy war. What specific tensions that ignited that war do you believe still exist and what changes and improvements have been made over the past year?

Stephen Cohen: No improvements over the past year! That’s easy to say. In this country, I don't know about Moscow, the war in Georgia is treated as a kind of accidental war, an unexpected development, or some kind of conspiracy by Moscow that nobody knew about. That’s all false!



Any intelligence observer that was paying attention could see that the expansion of NATO ever closer to Russia's borders, and then eventually right on Russia's borders, in the Baltics for example. And then the declared intention of Washington to bring Georgia and Ukraine into NATO and along the way arming the Georgia military with weapons that would qualify it for NATO membership was going to lead to something bad and dangerous. And it did.


There are mysteries about why and how it began and that is why the leader of Georgia, Saakashvili, attacked South Ossetia. We don’t know for sure why it happened then. But what we do know is something like that was likely to happen unless the situation changed, particularly the nature of the Georgian regime, and the declared Western intention, the American intention, to push NATO there. Since then, so far, from what I can tell, nothing has changed. And I don't think anybody should be surprised if there’s another violent episode in or around Georgia.


RT: There have been several reports that Washington may place US monitors in Georgia working in conjunction with the EU mission already there. The Russian Foreign Ministry was quick to respond to this, saying that this move may increase the potential for another conflict in the region. Taking into account the role of the US in last August’s events, how do you believe this is going to play out?

S.C.: Putting American monitors in the EU monitoring group is a terrible idea. All you have to do, if you're American, is imagine the reaction if an American gets killed. Even if we don't know who killed him. Russia will be blamed. When an American is killed, the popular opinion, or at least the elite, is retribution. We’ve seen that happen over the years. We don’t want any more Americans there. Moreover, there are already Americans in Georgia. Lots of them. Military minders, as they are called. People teaching the Georgians how to use the weapons; how to perform strategic maneuvers. There is also a very large American intelligence community in Georgia.

There are too many Americans. Something approaching an American military presence. Approaching, but not fully yet. That’s exceedingly dangerous for two reasons. First of all, it clearly strengthened Saakashvili, the Georgian leadership. To think last August that the US would stand behind it if it attacked South Ossetia. Whether it had such assurances from Washington, I don't know. But psychologically it created that impression in Saakashvili’s mind.

Secondly, you don’t want Americans on what is now the frontline of an unfolding Russia-America cold war. We don’t want any Russians there either. That is why we’re having a proxy war, as I call it. That is a war between Russia and a Georgian regime and a military that the US created and thought it was fighting for American interests. Whether it was or was not doesn’t matter – it is exceedingly dangerous regardless.

The Georgian war of 2008, a proxy war between US and Russia, had the potential to be the new Cuban Missile Crisis. That's how dangerous it was potentially. That has not been recognized and so the right lessons have not been learnt, even though a year has passed because the same rhetoric, the same dynamics, the same thinking in the US and possibly in Moscow is still with us.

RT: The US Vice President on a recent trip to Ukraine and Georgia pledged America's support to both countries. However, Mr. Biden did urge Georgia not to use any military options to regain its former territories. But by pledging support could this be interpreted as America will still help them join NATO and what does this mean when it comes to Washington’s policy towards Russia?

S.C.: It is not correct, as people are saying that what Vice President Biden has done and said about Russia both while he was in Georgia and Ukraine and when he returned to the US to the Wall Street Journal, is simply a man who has trouble controlling his mouth. He represents a very powerful point of view in Washington, everything that he said and did regarding Russia.

Second, the US does not want another Georgian war. We can't help Georgia. We are bogged down in Afghanistan and Iraq. Our military is stretched to its limits. However, the purpose of the Biden visit, the statements he made, was for several reasons. One was to state the anti-Russian point of view very clearly here in the US and make it clear that there are at least two points of view in the Obama administration. That's very important.

Secondly, it was to tell Moscow that we are going to defend Ukraine and Georgia in various ways, which means we still lay claim to those two small countries as our sphere of influence now. We've laid claim to them. What is NATO? It's a sphere of military influence.

Thirdly, it was probably what Biden did to our factions in Georgia, but particularly in Ukraine, where the leader of Ukraine, Yushchenko, has almost no public popularity at all. And the people in opposition are moving away from his anti-Russian position. And it's an attempt by the US to continue to support a pro American lobby there.

Go to the link for more. Very interesting interview and one I think tells many truths, in particular in regards to Biden and to NATO encouraging Saakashvili last year. RT=Russia Today.

[edit on 6-8-2009 by Regensturm]

Der Spiegel: Georgia not a victim of “Russian aggression”

From the link:

The reputable German news magazine has sparked uproar in its latest issue by proclaiming that Georgian President Mikhail Saakashvili started the war by attacking South Ossetia on August 7, 2008.


Der Spiegel, citing “confidential documents,” opens its article inside the downtown office of Heidi Tagliavini, the Swiss diplomat in charge of the European Union’s Independent International Fact-Finding Mission on the Conflict in Georgia (IIFFMCG).


“From her office on Avenue de la Paix… Heidi Tagliavini, 58, looks out onto the botanical gardens in peaceful Geneva,” begins the sensational story ("A Shattered Dream in Georgia"). “The view offers a welcome respite from the stacks of documents on her desk, which deal exclusively with war and war blame.”


There is just one problem: Tagliavini’s office strongly denies that any sort of interview took place between the German publication and the EU finding-mission.


In an email exchange with RT, the office of Heidi Tagliavini wrote: “Der Spiegel, in today’s edition (25/2009) published a two page article… which reflects on the work of IIFFMCG in a largely speculative and unsubstantiated way. In this context, I would like to state the following:

“Spiegel’s article is not based on information provided by… Ambassador Tagliavini, or any other authorized sources…. There has been no interview, background briefing or any other way of communication in order to provide information for the article.”

The letter goes on to confirm that “the report… shall be presented to the EU Council of Ministers by 31 July 2009 and comes under the sole and exclusive responsibility of Ambassador Heidi Tagliavini, and not under the responsibility of the Mission’s experts or the majority of its experts.”


Is there a mouse in the EU house?


Der Spiegel stands by its claims that it has obtained the unpublished documents, and judging by the following passage may have had a peek at Tagliavini’s cluttered desktop.

“The facts assembled on Tagliavini’s desk refute Saakashvili’s claim that his country became the innocent victim of ‘Russian aggression’ that day.”


Here are some of the incriminating bits of information that the German publication alleges to have uncovered from various members of the fact-finding commission.

“Georgia’s dream is shattered,” commission member Christopher Langton, a retired British Army colonel, is quoted in the article as saying. “But the country can only blame itself for that.”

Another commission member, Bruno Coppieter, a political scientist from Brussels, asks whether Georgia, which has strong NATO aspirations, may have had outside help in its misadventure.

“The support of Saakashvili by the West, especially military support,” Coppieter writes, “inadvertently promoted Georgia’s collision course.”

Finally, Otto Luchterhandt, a Hamburg international law expert, argues that “because the Georgians attacked a base used by Russian peacekeeping forces in the South Ossetian provincial capital Tskhinvali, Russia can invoke the right of self-defense under Article 51 of the United nations Charter,” Der Spiegel writes, paraphrasing Luchterhandt’s comments.


Tiny countries can be aggressors too…


But perhaps the most damaging claim in the article, which obliterates Saakashvili’s claims of “Russian aggression,” argues that large numbers of Russian tanks were nowhere near the border of South Ossetia on August 7.

“The experts found no evidence to support claims by the Georgian present, which he also mentioned in an interview with SPIEGEL, that a Russian column of 150 tanks had advanced into South Ossetia on the evening of Aug. 7,” the article alleges. “According to the commission’s findings, the Russian army didn’t enter South Ossetia until August 8.”

The author of the article, Uwe Klussman, writes that “Saakashvili had already amassed 12,000 troops and 75 tanks on the border with South Ossetia on the morning of Aug. 7.”

Go to the link for more.

Either Die Spiegel, a well respected news publication, has just published a fabricated article, or there's a leak in The European Union’s Independent International Fact-Finding Mission on the Conflict in Georgia (IIFFMCG).

Im not really seeing a whole lot about this in the news. Must not be that big of a deal?

Originally posted by princeofpeace
Im not really seeing a whole lot about this in the news. Must not be that big of a deal?

Yeah right, that just means it's worse than it is.

reply to post by Regensturm


I don't know why they need an official report for the august war... They could just have looked at this thread... We all know what happened.

- The US armed and trained Georgia, that is fact.
- They made wargames in july to test the troops
- Russia replied with similar war games.
- Georgian troops killed russian peacekeepers
- Georgian troops shelled the South Ossetian capital
- Georgian troops tried to take over the Roki Tunnel before Russia could come in Georgia to protect their soldiers and restore order after the peace treaty was breached.
- The month of august was chosen because it's a month of catastrophes for Russia since the 90s and august is a good month for war because of the weather.
- Russia took over the two protected regions, Abkhazia and South Ossetia, and advanced a little more in certains areas to take out Georgian artillery and to destroy any offensive capabilities so they would stop their attack on civilians.
- Georgia had an history of killing it's own citizens, Abkhazia capital, in 93, 20.000 died. This couldn't happen again, especially with russian peacekeepers being killed in the process.

Basically, Georgia started it and the US did everything they could, short of attacking Russia directly, to help them.

EDIT: Very interesting article in the mind of Saakasvilli. Here

[edit on 6-8-2009 by Vitchilo]

reply to post by Vitchilo
Georgia is like Estonia, Latvia, Romania, Poland, Lithuania, Ukraine, Czecoslovakia, Bulgaria, Poland, East Germany, Hungary...... Pushing the NATO further and further eastwards. Is that not exactly what the NAZI did?

No, the Nazis regained land that was stolen from them in WWI through military force, which is why they pushed their campaign too far by collecting territory beyond those of old Prussia which in return lead to the successful Soviet counter attack.

NATO is using political and covert pressure to take over Russian-allied territory. It seems nice as its painted by western media, but I have no doubts that people true to Eastern philosophy are extremely pissed off at American assimilation in their homelands.

Originally posted by Vitchilo
Maloy, I know this is very very very very unlikely, but let's be crazy warmongerers/doomsayers here for a second. Let's say Ukraine and Russia goes at it for real and full scale, would half of the Ukraine military rebel against the government which finally, Russia would take over Ukraine?

Ok I'll put on the tinfoil hat and pretend that anything is theoretically possible after drinking too many shots.

Lets say Ukraine and Russia have a military clash on the border which spirals out into a large conflict. Kiev would see huge protests on the streets from both sides - those supporting Russia and firmly against military action, and those who regard themselves as Ukrainian nationalists and opposed to Russia. There is no way police would be able to hadle these protests, and soon the two opposing groups would clash right on the streets of the capital. Outside of Kiev, regions with ethnical Russia and pro-Russian majority could declare themselves no longer affiliated with national government. This would especially be true for Crimea, which could very well use the opportunity to declare independence.

While there might not be outright civil war, Ukraine would be too divided as a nation to effectivelly function, especially during a war. There could well be an attempt at a coup against Yuschenko by the pro-Russian parliamentary majority. And no - I do not think Russia would venture into Ukraine. I think internal opposition to Yuschenko would be enough to tear the country apart eventually leading to his ousting. All Russia will need to do is lend some assistance and sit back and watch.

Originally posted by Vitchilo
Would Russia lose since Ukraine is close to Moscow?

Ukraine's army may be large, but it is very ineffective and poorly prepared. Their military budget is heavily strained, and corruption within armed forces is rampant. Much of the equipment they have left since Soviet times is in disuse and is in desperate need of maintenance (especially their portion of the Black Sea fleet and Ukrainian airforce). On top of that - consider that Ukraine has very few veteran troops that are experienced in combat. On the other hand Russia has a large amount of active servicemen that have participated in the Caucasus conflicts.

So Ukraine could not effectively carry out any large offensive strategy. Even if ethnical division of the country wasn't an issue, this fact alone would be enough to prevent Ukraine in becoming involved in any conflict with Russia. It is still a force to be reckoned with however if it takes up a defensive strategy.

Originally posted by Vitchilo
Would Russia use nukes if Moscow were to fall, near falling?

There is only one country in the world that has the theoretical capability to occupy Moscow. You know what country that is. And if this were to be even on the verge of happening, then the world would be but a pile of ash.

As I said, Ukraine has no capability to carry out a large offensive military action against Russia. Lets put it this way - Ukraine would have a hard time invading the Russian sea base in Sevastopol - and it is inside Ukraine. So talking about Moscow is a moot point.

Originally posted by Vitchilo
From what you were saying, if Russia and Ukraine were to go at it, we would be near WW3.

Not really. In a conventional military face off, Ukraine stands no chance, and no nukes would need to come into play. NATO on the other hand is a whole other deal. But then it wouldn't be so much Ukraine-vs-Russia than NATO-vs-Russia.


Ok now I am taking off my lunatic theorist hat.

Originally posted by princeofpeace
Im not really seeing a whole lot about this in the news. Must not be that big of a deal?

The MSM will only report on it if a war breaks out because of Saakashvili and Russian tanks move, Saakashvili will once be be portrayed as the hapless victim instead of the warmongering malignant dwarf that he is, and Russia will be portrayed as the big aggressive bad bear once again.


In other words, if there is some big shoot-shoot-bang-bang, then the MSM sits up and takes notice.

Originally posted by Vitchilo
I don't know why they need an official report for the august war... They could just have looked at this thread... We all know what happened.

- The US armed and trained Georgia, that is fact.
- They made wargames in july to test the troops
- Russia replied with similar war games.
- Georgian troops killed russian peacekeepers
- Georgian troops shelled the South Ossetian capital
- Georgian troops tried to take over the Roki Tunnel before Russia could come in Georgia to protect their soldiers and restore order after the peace treaty was breached.
- The month of august was chosen because it's a month of catastrophes for Russia since the 90s and august is a good month for war because of the weather.
- Russia took over the two protected regions, Abkhazia and South Ossetia, and advanced a little more in certains areas to take out Georgian artillery and to destroy any offensive capabilities so they would stop their attack on civilians.
- Georgia had an history of killing it's own citizens, Abkhazia capital, in 93, 20.000 died. This couldn't happen again, especially with russian peacekeepers being killed in the process.

Basically, Georgia started it and the US did everything they could, short of attacking Russia directly, to help them.

EDIT: Very interesting article in the mind of Saakasvilli. Here

Absolutely, and an excellent summary. Governments around the world have also been realising the truth behind the matter, or facing up to the truth. I hope that the official report will be absorbed and not covered up and modified, I hope the evidence finally sinks in so that the EU never consider Georgia for membership while Saakashvili and his gang are in power. I hope this is food for thought for NATO, who realise the truth about Saakashvili, their friend, is coming out.


ROAR: “Saakashvili irritates Europeans”

From the link:

Many Russians still believe Western leaders supported Georgia in the conflict over South Ossetia because they tried to “squeeze Moscow out of the Caucasus.”


Opinions of both politicians and analysts in Russia and the US remain practically unchanged about the 2008 war over South Ossetia. At the same time, many European politicians and observers seem to have changed their attitudes to last year’s events.

Despite the support for Georgia in last year’s conflict, the US administration is trying to reset its relations with Russia. The Georgian regime feels uneasy about this, Aleksey Mukhin, general director of the Independent Center for Political Information, told RT.

“There were concerns that the US could stop its financial and political support to Tbilisi,” Mukhin said. The Georgian opposition immediately sped up its attempts to change the regime.

On the other side of the conflict are Ossetians and Russia, and their positions have not changed either, Mukhin stressed. They could make the most of the upcoming presentation of the results of the report by European observers about the beginning of the war, as Georgia is expected to be named as the side that started the war.

Russia may even insist on creating some kind of international tribunal for the Georgian leadership for the attempted genocide of Ossetians. However Mukhin called this idea “hypothetical”.

Tbilisi, in its turn, has not changed its position either and now accuses Russia of aggression and occupation of Georgia’s territory. Georgia is trying not to provoke Russia into a full-scale conflict, but it is initiating small conflicts in the zone of conflict, Mukhin said.

Gunfire continues to occur on the border between South Ossetia and Georgia, and it will last all during the period of information coverage of the anniversary of the conflict, Mukhin believes.

He stressed that the Georgian leadership is incapable of fulfilling its main task – returning South Ossetia. However, Tbilisi’s tactical scheme is to get American observers to the zone of the conflict.

“European observers at the moment do not meet Georgia’s requirements,” Mukhin stressed. “American observers will guarantee that the US will continue to finance the Saakashvili regime,” he said.

“The Georgian plans may be in line with Washington’s intentions to increase its influence in the region, even if it will be the observers’ mission,” Mukhin said. "The attempt to establish good relations between the US and Russian presidents will not be an obstacle for Washington," he added.

As for analysts in Russia, they have not changed their opinions about the conflict, Mukhin stressed. “Many of them formed their attitudes immediately after the conflict,” he said. "There is no evolution of opinions among analysts,” he said.

Political scientists in the US do not see this conflict as a priority for US interests, and Georgia worries about it, Mukhin said. The interest is even decreasing with time, because the US has more important problems.

Many European analysts and politicians, however, have changed their opinions, Mukhin told RT. “It is Saakashvili himself who irritates them very much,” he added. “It is indicative that the Georgian leader no longer speaks in public against a background of the European Union’s flag,” Mukhin said.

Go to the link for more.



It always used to annoy me to see the malignant dwarf fly the EU flag behind him in his warmongering.


Saakashvili is as has been said by infinite, Napoleonic with illusions of grandeur. The report needs to be read so the final stubborn denial can be broke down.


Saakashvili sees US-Russia relations tentatively improving and EU-Georgia relations weaken. As infinite said, Saakashvili does not want this. It goes against his interests. He will do anything to stop it.



Anything.













[edit on 7-8-2009 by Regensturm]

[edit on 7-8-2009 by Regensturm]

This could heat up quick...

Ukraine adopts national program to move towards NATO accession

KIEV, August 7 (RIA Novosti) - Ukrainian President Viktor Yushchenko signed a decree on Friday approving a national program for 2009 aimed at preparing the country to join NATO, the presidential press service said.
The document gives the Ukrainian government one month to draft and adopt an action plan to implement the program in 2009.
The Cabinet was also instructed to submit by December 1 a draft national program for 2010, and to follow the same procedure in the future until Ukraine is granted NATO membership.
Ukraine has been pursuing NATO membership since pro-Western Yushchenko was inaugurated in January 2005.
Ukraine and Georgia's NATO bids were strongly backed by the administration of U.S. President George W. Bush, but were turned down due to pressure from Germany and France at a 2008 NATO summit in Bucharest.
However, NATO has stated that the two countries will join at an unspecified date in the future.
Both countries have also been included in the alliance's Partnership for Peace program, aimed at allowing "partner countries to build up an individual relationship with NATO, choosing their own priorities for cooperation."
The implementation of Ukraine's national program on NATO accession will be checked annually by NATO experts.
New NATO Secretary General Anders Fogh Rasmussen said on Monday that Ukraine and Georgia were still far from joining NATO, but added that the membership remained open to countries that meet NATO standards.

That is bad news.
Another move by Ukraine that might be connected to future Ukraine NATO membership

Ukraine stores record volume of gas in underground tanks
On Wednesday, Naftogaz Ukraine said the country's underground storage tanks were filled to over 70% capacity.
"As of today, we have accumulated about 22.7 billion cubic meters of gas of 27 billion cu m (953 billion cu ft) planned this year," said Naftogaz deputy head Ihor Didenko.
Ukraine's underground tanks can hold a total of 31.5-32 billion cubic meters of gas, according to different estimates.
If Russia and Ukraine once again fail to reach a gas price agreement on time, and their disagreements lead to another "gas war" and disruption of supplies, Ukraine will be able to survive for a long time on the fuel it has stored, just like last January.
In this case, Central and Eastern European countries will once again find themselves hardest hit, as they import their gas via Ukraine. Russia's image as a reliable supplier will be damaged again, if it fails to ensure stable supplies to its European customers.
So far, Ukraine has paid Gazprom on time for gas. Ukrainian Prime Minister Yulia Tymoshenko said on Wednesday that Ukraine had paid $605 million for July ahead of time.
However, there is still the usual stumbling block in relations between the two countries over the price to be paid for gas.
In late May, Bohdan Sokolovsky, the president's energy aide, said the presidential secretariat expected to change some of the clauses in the gas agreement with Russia. He said the changes could be made the same way the deal was reached - in accordance with international agreements. In his view, Ukraine, Europe and Russia alike should be interested in this approach.
"The contracts with Russia are crippling and enslaving. They were a fundamental mistake of the Ukrainian and Russian governments, because they stipulate blatantly exorbitant prices for Russian gas and low transit fees," he said.

Georgia's path to EU, NATO 'more open than ever': Saakashvili
That is funny.
Vladimir Poutine determined to kill me
He's so full of it...
World briefs: Georgia slams 'invaders'
Invaders....HAHAHAAAHA

Originally posted by Vitchilo
Georgia's path to EU, NATO 'more open than ever': Saakashvili
That is funny.
Vladimir Poutine determined to kill me
He's so full of it...
World briefs: Georgia slams 'invaders'
Invaders....HAHAHAAAHA

From the second link, Saakashvili says:

“Putin has every reason to go after us and finish the job. But he’s a street guy who’s still afraid of the policeman and this time the policeman called and warned him,” Mr Saakashvili said. “But the guy is getting desperate. From his perception there is unfinished business in Georgia. Once you fail to do things you are no longer boss in the neighbourhood.”

An absolute failure to deflect away from himself.

A perfect description in fact by Saakashvili of himself, he being the street thug and Russia being the policeman who called and warned him.


Saakashvili is the one getting desperate. You can almost smell it on him. To him there is unfinished business in South Ossetia and Abkhazia. He is no longer boss of Tbilisi, let alone Georgia.


The groundswell of opposition in Georgia to him is evident.

[edit on 8-8-2009 by Regensturm]

Medvedev promises South Ossetia more aid, including military

Russia will not revise decision on S.Ossetia, Abkhazia - Medvedev

And Georgia trying to buy some allies in Washington...and NATO in general.

Georgia set to send troops to Afghanistan

Russia blamed for cyber terror blitz

EDIT: Uzbekistan and Russia locked in row over base

Uzbekistan and Russia are locked in their worst diplomatic crisis in nearly a decade over Moscow’s campaign to build a new Russian military base in the heart of Central Asia, analysts say.

Moscow has been recently been courting its former Soviet satellites in the region in an attempt to counter what it perceives as a growing US military presence in its traditional geo-strategic backyard.

But that effort ran into trouble last week when Uzbekistan, Central Asia’s most populous state, lashed out at plans by a Russia-dominated regional security organisation for a new base near its volatile border with Kyrgyzstan.

Uzbekistan blasted the deal, signed last month between Russian President Dmitry Medvedev and his Kyrgyz counterpart Kurmanbek Bakiyev, saying it would destabilise the region, embolden extremists and lead to a military buildup.

Interesting...

Thank you Maloy for your info about Ukraine...

Some rumor from Georgia (they are crazy) : Russia may kill the president of S.Ossetia or Abkhazia & impute that to Georgia to start a war. (Now that's funny)

[edit on 10-8-2009 by Vitchilo]

The Russian Propaganda War Rages On

So... not only me who thinks that the Russian media are going over the top with this.

The state-owned Vesti television station, for example, is meant to be a news channel, but it spent most of Friday rebroadcasting year-old footage. The same Georgian rocket launchers shelled Tskhinvali, the same Russian tanks rolled down dusty Ossetian roads, and the same South Ossetian civilians wept as their villages burned. At intervals of about 45 minutes Russian representatives in the United Nations denounced the Georgian attack and Western complicity in it.

It may have been the sheer power of repetition that made it was hard to remember that this is an anniversary, not a reenactment. The effort to give a historical twist to the coverage was only more confusing - again, the same footage, but this time in back and white with the cigarette-burn blotches and streaky distortions of a mid-twentieth century newsreel.

Whether or not that was a conscious attempt to elevate August 2008 to the same historical footing of May 1945, or just the work of a producer with a sense for the dramatic, the effort put into it and the time devoted to it points to one important fact: for mainstream Russian media organizations, and the officials who control them, the propaganda war they fought last year is not over.

Lavrov did admit that the Russians themselves “could have been more active” in their PR efforts, and for the past week they seem to have been making up for that. Both the mainstream media and the Russian state have rolled out the same faces and tactics they fielded last year in an effort to get that point home once more.

First up was Colonel General Anatoly Nogovitsyn, a deputy chief of the Russian General Staff, who on Wednesday called a press conference to reprise his August 2008 role as spokesman for the Russian war and describe how one year ago Georgian pilots used aircraft with Russan markings to attack a column of refugees fleeing Tskhinvali. A report he had apparently held onto for the past 12 months.

Well at least Lavrov was honest for once. And the information held onto by the general... puhhleeassee... it's as ridiculous as the claims of captured Israeli and American troops. Yeah Russian's hold onto supposed information and expects us to believe their stories! Fools! And repetitive fools as well!

And so many on ats are Russian propaganda parrots!!!

"Squawk!! Squawk!!"

What's that you say?? You believe the Russian's!!?

JOKERS!!!


[edit on 10-8-2009 by john124]