Rebuttal In Defiance Of The GFL

reply to post by Steve B


Steve B,

With all respect to the thread you've created and are referring to, your post has nothing to do with this thread which concerns the GFL and associated troll threads. Your completely off topic mate!

IRM

Sorry i didn't mean to, If these threads are so annoying they should just be deleted and banished to another board like reptillian junk.

reply to post by InfaRedMan


it's OK - I see where you're coming from

we all have our place

see you around the neighborhood

Originally posted by Steve B
Sorry i didn't mean to, If these threads are so annoying they should just be deleted and banished to another board like reptillian junk.

No probs Stevie B,

I understand your original post though, and yes, I agree with you about the reptilian stuff. They actually have a place for it in skunkworks these days. I'll come over and have a look at your thread anyhow

Welcome To ATS Mate

IRM

Thank you for posting this thread, IRM.

Starred and flagged.

I'm still fairly new to ATS, but I have already seen dozens of threads like the GFL one, making predictions and claiming truths with absolutely no evidence to back it up. Like I said in that thread, it's stuff like that which turns a field that really needs serious study into a punchline.

reply to post by InfaRedMan


You don't need another star but I gave you one IRM.

I really feel these "predictions" belong in Skunk Works or The Gray Area. At the same time, given all the unusual reports surrounding the topics of Aliens/UFOs, we must not be too quick in labeling people kooks or liars.

My only concern is that these threads scare away serious researchers who might contribute valuable information to the community. It's easy to get into a bickering match with someone who insists such and such event will happen or that the alien agenda is definitely this and that.

It would be nice for people to police themselves. If your thread does not have any links to supporting material and it comes across as insisting a theory or prediction is fact, then you might want to consider putting it in the Gray Area or Skunk Works.

This isn't about finger pointing. This is about members taking responsibility in getting their subject matter into the most appropiate forum.

i liked the flag / flop thing but i can see as ArMaP posted it would be open to abuse, and i guess if you have gang posters (lets face it theres always different cliques in internet forums) they could set out to have all posts from someone they dislike flopped.

the only other thing that i can think of is a system similar to adding stars to good posts maybe have a BS meter next to the thread title on the catagory index page so people who dont want to siv through garbage can avoid the post however the post wouldnt be removed but it would allow people to avoid those posts and they will get buried quicker.

reply to post by Skipper1975


So we start a thread about how to stay out of your ridiculous thread by posting here, yet you insist on posting your lies here? How does that make any sense?

reply to post by Scramjet76


Hey Scramjet76,

You make many valid points my friend! Thankyou for reinforcing this thread with your wisdom. It's my hope that if enough good people read through these pages, we might be able to make a few changes to the mindset here.

Like you say, we need to police ourselves better!

As someone else said Trolls Need To Eat...DON'T feed the troll... and the troll dies.

Funny thing is, the exact same thing would happen the the GFL if people stopped buying their merchandise and joining their quaint little Cult.

..and a star for you in return!

IRM

reply to post by rocksarerocks


Because that's their M.O rocksarerocks!

They're brainwashed full of peace, love and moonbeams - and they're so busy building their sand castles in the sky and then living in them that they don't understand that people aren't loving them back.

As Scramjet just said, the best thing we can do is just ignore them - then hopefully watch them all fly off in their little spaceship sometime soon!

IRM

IRM, dude... You gotta slam our guy Spiramirabilis cuz you can't penetrate his prose?

And he is a troll to boot?

With this style of personal attack, cuz what, he's got a different point than you, you undermine your ENTIRE thread.

Tsk Tsk.

From this honest observers viewpoint... It just looks like you want to silence basically anybody that disagrees with you.

You want to create your own 'Free Speech' threadspace?

Bravo InfraRedMan!



So, is like a star and flagged in order?

reply to post by golemina


Ok so Spiramirabilis can cast the first stone and then needs someone else to finish his/her battles for him/her? If you think I'm just going to sit here and take nonsense, your wrong!

This thread was perfectly civil until your 'bud' sounded off with the passive aggressive drivel and personal attacks. Let me illustrate:

Originally posted by Spiramirabilis
you think it's about protecting credibility - protecting your particular area of interest keeping the standards high enough that the subject matter can be researched in a manner you deem as being serious and responsible
but it's actually a form of intellectual laziness

Hang on - I want to see credibility maintained and the subject matter thoroughly researched, then Spiramirabilis the audacity to call me intellectually lazy! Does Spiramirabilis stand for the complete opposite?

I can't believe this even has to be discussed here at ATS
what you don't seem to see is - if it were up to anybody else - if there were someone out there who had the power - ATS would just go away because it's absolute nonsense - the entire site

First Spiramirabilis has his/her own opinion on what should or shouldn't be discussed here at ATS so don't talk to me about freedom of speech!
And why is Spiramirabilis here at a site where he deems everything to be "Absolute Nonsense"? To cause trouble perhaps? To Troll? I don't know, you tell me!

your serious attention to the ufology is a complete waste of brain cells and electricity to many people - and they'd shut you up in a heartbeat - simply because they don't respect you - and you annoy them
get it?

OK - 3 insults in one paragraph... and your telling me this deserves no rebuttal? That I should just take this nonsense? Then Spiramirabilis has the audacity again to say "Get It?" as though I'm some form of simpleton!

in a relative universe - your opinion means absolutely nothing to a great many people

Just as Spiramirabilis' opinion probably means nothing to a great many other people too.

In short, your telling me that Spiramirabilis can cast stones, (more than 4 of them) but the poor guy/girl shouldn't get them back? I'm afraid your view is biased.

I wont be responding any further as this is not what the thread is intended for. If you have problems, U2U me!

[edit on 8/8/08 by InfaRedMan]

reply to post by InfaRedMan


First off, don't shoot! golem... friend!

(Though annointing me with the 'respected foe'... aw shucks I didn't know you cared and I AM flattered. )

But seriously, it's just not that big a deal... At least for me, when I read anyone's post, I always remove the personal attribute.

I'm for more interested in what they REALLY have to say, than the package it arrives in.

The GFL (and the dozens of other threads of it's nature ), speaks for itself, you are receiving a LOT of support, and it is your thread.

However... S guy does bring a lot of valid points.

In striving for credibility, we need to be REAL scientists (/investigators ) and encourage people to 'Show me' what you got, not tell them "That's not possible..." and send them on their way because of our current knowledge limitations/blindspots.

Keep up the good work InfraRedMan.




[edit on 8-8-2008 by golemina]

reply to post by InfaRedMan


hey there InfaRedMan

I know this probably doesn't stand a snowballs chance in hell (sorry - not enough coffee yet for an even better over used phrase)

but - I'm going to give it a shot

I'm not going to apologize for what I said - but I will apologize for the way I said it

and I can see that you don't see it - but none of what I said was aimed at you personally

I do have a very different point of view from you - I know

and clearly - it's something I feel very strongly about

but the points I was trying to make weren't an attempt to insult you - Infraredman

I was trying give an example of how everyone should be allowed to have their opinion - and how not putting up with others opinions doesn't seem important - until some one won't put up with yours

and I want to emphasize - by "yours" - I mean "ours"

I''m not in the habit of explaining myself - but sometimes - an olive branch is way better than NO olive branch

I have to say - calling me a troll - while not what you intended - made my day

I smiled the entire rest of the day - and unfortunately - I didn't have a single other person I could share it with

but - thank you - really

and respected foe is definitely better than generic foe - so thanks for that too

I wish you would reread my gobbledygook - not because I need for you to agree with me - but because I really want you to understand - wasn't intended to offend

and - you know - I do tend to babble on - so, point taken :-)

I had just before that told someone "don't write angry"

so - there you go

Originally posted by golemina
IRM, dude... You gotta slam our guy Spiramirabilis cuz you can't penetrate his prose?

And he is a troll to boot?

prose...

you just made my day today

and - I'm going to try and enjoy being a troll for a little while

thanks for letting me know I didn't completely miss the mark

reply to post by Spiramirabilis


If you, (Spiramirabilis), were using the word "you" in a plural sense, then my apologies for the troll statement.

However, having said that, your post became somewhat confusing and I could no longer separate the first person "You" from the plural. One minute you were addressing me directly, and then apparently you were speaking in the hypothetical?

I guess a sense of negativity came from your comment about ATS so I took the view that you were on the attack and I guess that changed the complexion of the plural "you" into the personal "you".

I hate arguing in any case. Where the exchange may have "made your day", it had a negative impact on mine. Such are the woes of sensitive artistic pursuits.

Anyhow, it's forgotten! Foe removed!

IRM

[edit on 8/8/08 by InfaRedMan]

I have an idea.... How about everybody shut up about it until October 14th and see if the space ship appears? It's probably not going to happen, but if it does, all of you will feel extremely foolish.

Originally posted by InfaRedMan
reply to post by Spiramirabilis

 

I hate arguing in any case. Where the exchange may have "made your day", it had a negative impact on mine. Such are the woes of sensitive artistic pursuits.

Anyhow, it's forgotten! Foe removed!

IRM

[edit on 8/8/08 by InfaRedMan]

good to hear from you - and thanks

the exchange didn't make my day - but - seriously the troll part really did :-)

you could've called me worse

and it's never good to hear I screwed up someones day

anyway - I don't mind intellectual arguments - but not much into real arguing myself

I love ATS - just don't want to see it get messed up - but, it's just a difference of opinion about how that might happen

the majority is with you on this one - wonder how it'll get worked out

see you out there -

I think Demandred has some good ideas there. I know I'm guilty of throwing my two sense worth in without plowing through an entire thread but until I can afford the luxury of anything better than dialup, I'm going to continue with my method. I read page one and if I don't get the gist, I skip ahead. If it still makes sense and has viable content, then I'll go back and carefully read everyones viewpoint even if I have to reconnect a few times. Sometimes I find some really good content on some obviously crappy subjects but they were really worth it and I look for posts and replies by the same people. It's too bad that some obviously affluent people have the wherewithal to clutter this site and in some cases wreck some good threads but after a year of this, I'm glad I joined and threw my two sense in when I decided too.

reply to post by InfaRedMan


I have been following the degradation of the GFL thread and the number of folks who have been losing points (and their patience and sanity) and thus I have decided to come out and agree with the thesis of IRM in this thread.

I tend towards the scientific side myself (having a background and degrees in such disciplines) yet consider myself open minded. However, there is "open minded" and there is "not using your mind". I would put certain of the threads I have seen on here of late in the latter category instead of the former.

S & F for this thread to show support.

Still, while I do encourage tolerance, I am afraid that threads such as the GFL thread will discourage tolerance by those who happen upon this site and see such things on the front page. Some of us walk a thin line anyway being involved in ATS topics, although some of us (I am speaking more of myself - so please do not assume this about anyone else) would like to see some validity and acceptance of the work being done on this site by the larger community. I believe there is a great deal of good work, hard work, good critical thinking and truth-seeking going on at ATS and I would hate to see that tainted by highly speculative, unfalsifiable threads such as the GFL thread.

Some might argue (in fact - this has been done, already) that the GFL thread is falsifiable. To be sure, one would think that it should be - on 14 Oct 08. Alas, as has been pointed out so many times before, when a medium or intermediary is involved (such as in the GFL thread) then it is arguable that such claims are not falsifiable since a new message could be given saying basically that owing to some circumstances, whatever they may be, such a visitation - or in general, not specifically looking at the GFL thread, but others of that ilk - some other such predicted event, may in fact not occur owing to alleged intervention by others or due to something else entirely. Thus, there is no way to rationally dispute, or even discuss, threads in that genre.

My answer then - as I do believe in tolerance - is one of two that I do not claim as my own but have seen others post:

1) Move such items to another special section of ATS more geared to such speculative topics -or-
2) Allow some kind of per-user ban that is stronger than what is currently allowed.

A possible third option might be some vehicle separate from S & F that is the equivalent of "burying" a topic, such as on DIGG.

I would like to thank IRM and others who have responded for their well thought-out responses and the ensuing discussion. I would also like to personally thank IRM for starting this thread giving us a chance to S & F this thread so that it too may show up near the top of the list alongside some of the offending threads so that at very least it is clear is that there is a segment of the ATS population that is taking posts such as the GFL post seriously, but in a very different manner than the OP of that post would probably prefer. I very much wanted to comment in that thread, but at the same time was bothered by the dilemma that to post on that thread (or threads like it) is to give such threads more weight just by shear number of replies. Thus, this alternative thread offers a venue in which the serious issues brought up by such threads can be discussed, but without fear of further perpetuating such threads.

I sincerely hope the ATS staff is closely monitoring this thread and giving it some long hard contemplation.

Again, thanks to all and to all the great comments I have read in this thread.

Woody