Challenge to debunkers

Originally posted by jprophet420

You are correct in that you do not have to prove any CT. But if you are willing to accuse someone of mass murder, you should have your facts ready. Your facts, do not add up to the government killing 3 thousand of it's citizens.

My facts do add up to the government lieing about it and not investigating it propperly. That is treasonous in itself good sir.

Its amazing, 850 some views and only one legitimate attempt to debunk.

If I didnt know any better I'd Think I was onto something.

Back on track....

please list the evidence that supports your accusations of the government lying about the events / evidence of 911. (I will concede the fact that Bush & his administration were proven to be incompetent imbeciles)

What was not properly investigated?

You say that serial numbers should have been matched, and recorded. Maybe your right. But what difference would it have made?

What else was not investigated properly?

You don't know better... you are on to nothing. That's why it's been 7 years and there has been not one single whistle blower or smoking gun.

Back on track....

please list the evidence that supports your accusations of the government lying about the events / evidence of 911. (I will concede the fact that Bush & his administration were proven to be incompetent imbeciles)

I already have. I obviously cant post information thats been renigged. The perfect example is how a list of passengers identified via DNA was released, then re-released with less names on it.

What was not properly investigated?

I have covered this thoroughly in my "Aversion" thread. It hasn't been debunked here nor there

You say that serial numbers should have been matched, and recorded. Maybe your right. But what difference would it have made?
It would have contributed to a proper investigation. While this isn't important to you it's important to anyone looking for the truth (not "truthers" in general).

What else was not investigated properly?

You don't know better... you are on to nothing.
Thats why you can't refute the research I have presented
That's why it's been 7 years and there has been not one single whistle blower or smoking gun.
[color= Yellow]There have been many of both. If I changed the wording to: Thats why its been 7 years and the investigation is incomplete...

Originally posted by ThroatYogurt

Originally posted by cashlink




(No, you would then say the parts were not legit.... You would say.. "It's been 7 years, I'm sure they faked the parts.)

I just proved to you that the FBI will not release the black box SS#
Are you hand waveing this proof?

With out the part SS# Theres no proof that these came from those planes.


(You see, it doesn't matter you you what evidence is shown. You ignore everything that is presented to you.)

You just ignore what I just presented to you!
Is the pot calling the kettle black!

See you dont want to find the truth, and I just proved it!




[edit on 8/9/2008 by cashlink]

Originally posted by ThroatYogurt
My speculation is relevant because ignoring evidence is done here on a daily basis. Hand waving of evidence is the norm for most truthers.

Its jsut too bad the believers can not post any real evidence to support the official story and they ignore any evidnece that questions the official story.

Originally posted by ThroatYogurt
Hehehe your funny Ultima. Let me know when you do make such a post.

Well lets look at the facts of 9/11.

1. There is no actual evidence to support the official story since the investigating agencies have not released most of the evidence. There is more evidence that questions the official story then supports it.

2. There are no actual phtotos or videos released that show AA77 hitting the Pentagon.

3. There is evidence and official reports that show the Flight 93 was shot down.

4. The investigating agencies will not release serial numbers to match the parts found to the 9/11 planes.


[edit on 9-8-2008 by ULTIMA1]

reply to post by jprophet420


Please stop with the Yellow Font!

In regards to your Aversion Thread. I guess you didn't read what I posted on page 1 of this thread:

Aversion of the Scientific Method and its effect on the 911 OS

One again your thread although very passionate, is an opinion.

I don't want to derail getting into a debate about NIST. Even Griff who is searching for the truth realizes that the WTC Towers could have come down in the manner as NIST has shown.

Not only NIST has done scientific papers on the WTC collapse. On another thread i listed over 90 experts that have done peer reviewed papers on the collapses, fires, etc.

This is for the WTC alone. I'm not sure what else in the way of science do you think is missing from 911 investigations.

Here are only some of the papers / conferences etc..

"Why Did the World Trade Center Collapse? Science, Engineering, and Speculation" Eagar, T.W., & Musso, C., JOM v. 53, no. 12, (2001): 8-12.

"Dissecting the Collapses" Civil Engineering ASCE v. 72, no. 5, (2002): 36-46.

A suggested cause of the fire-induced collapse of the World Trade Towers. By: Quintiere, J.G.; di Marzo, M.; Becker, R.. Fire Safety Journal, Oct2002, Vol. 37 Issue 7, p707, 10p.

Impact of the Boeing 767 Aircraft into the World Trade Center. By: Karim, Mohammed R.; Fatt, Michelle S. Hoo. Journal of Engineering Mechanics, Oct2005, Vol. 131 Issue 10, p1066-1072.

Could the world trade center have been modified to prevent its collapse?; Newland, D. E.; Cebon, D. Journal of Engineering Mechanics; 2002 Vol. 128 Issue 7, p795-800, 6p.

"Elaboration on Aspects of the Postulated Collapse of the World Trade Centre Twin Towers" Clifton, Charles G., HERA: Innovation in Metals. 2001. 13 December 2001.

How the airplane wing cut through the exterior columns of the World Trade Center; Wierzbicki, T.; Teng, X. International Journal of Impact Engineering; 2003 Vol. 28, p601-625, 25p

Stability of the World Trade Center Twin Towers Structural Frame in Multiple Floor Fires. By: Usmani, A. S.. Journal of Engineering Mechanics, Jun2005, Vol. 131 Issue 6, p654-657.

Structural Responses of World Trade Center under Aircraft Attacks. Omika, Yukihiro.; Fukuzawa, Eiji.; Koshika, Norihide. Journal of Structural Engineering v. 131 no1 (January 2005) p. 6-15

The Structural Steel of the World Trade Center Towers. Gayle, Frank W.; Banovic, Stephen W.; Foecke, Tim. Advanced Materials & Processes v. 162 no10 (October 2004) p. 37-9

WTC Findings Uphold Structural Design. Post, Nadine M. ENR v. 253 no17 (November 1 2004) p. 10-11

"World Trade Center Collapse-Civil Engineering Considerations" Monahan, B., Practice Periodical on Structural Design and Construction v. 7, no. 3, (2002): 134-135.

Ming Wang, Peter Chang, James Quintiere, and Andre Marshall "Scale Modeling of the 96th Floor of World Trade Center Tower 1" Journal of Performance of Constructed Facilities Volume 21, Issue 6, pp. 414-421

Engineering Conference Papers:

"TMS Hot Topic Symposium Examines WTC Collapse and Building Engineering" Marechaux, T.G. JOM, v. 54, no. 4, (2002): 13-17.

Abboud, N., M. Levy, D. Tennant, J. Mould, H. Levine, S. King, C. Ekwueme, A. Jain, G. Hart. (2003) Anatomy of a Disaster: A Structural Investigation of the World Trade Center Collapses. In: Proceedings of the Third Congress on Forensic Engineering. San Diego: American Society of Civil Engineers. pp 360-370

Beyler, C., D. White, M. Peatross, J. Trellis, S. Li, A. Luers, D. Hopkins. (2003) Analysis of the Thermal Exposure in the Impact Areas of the World Trade Center Terrorist Attacks. In: Proceedings of the Third Congress on Forensic Engineering. San Diego: American Society of Civil Engineers. pp 371-382

Thater, G. G.; Panariello, G. F.; Cuoco, D. A. (2003) World Trade Center Disaster: Damage/Debris Assessment In: Proceedings of the Third Congress on Forensic Engineering. San Diego: American Society of Civil Engineers. pp 383-392

Fire Protection and Fire Modeling Papers?

How did the WTC towers collapse? A new theory; Usmani, A. S.; Chung, Y. C.; Torero, J. L. Fire Safety Journal; 2003 Vol. 38, p501-533, 33p.

Effect of insulation on the fire behaviour of steel floor trusses. Fire and Materials, 29:4, July/August 2005. pp. 181 - 194. Chang, Jeremy; Buchanan, Andrew H.; Moss, Peter J.

"WTC: Lightweight Steel and High-Rise Buildings" Brannigan, F.L. Fire Engineering v.155, no. 4, (2002): 145-150.

"Construction and Collapse Factors" Fire Engineering v.155, no. 10, (2002): 106-108.

Corbett, G.P. "Learning and Applying the Lessons of the WTC Disaster" Fire Engineering v.155, no. 10, (2002.): 133-135.

"Collapse Lessons" Fire Engineering v. 155, no. 10, (2002): 97-103

Burgess, I.W., 'Fire Resistance of Framed Buildings', Physics Education, 37 (5), (2002) pp390-399.

G. Flint, A.S. Usmani, S. Lamont, J. Torero and B. Lane, Effect of fire on composite long span truss floor systems, Journal of Constructional Steel Research 62 (4) (2006), pp. 303–315.

Fire Protection Conference Papers

"Coupled fire dynamics and thermal response of complex building structures" Proceedings of the Combustion Institute, Volume 30, Issue 2, January 2005, Pages 2255-2262 Kuldeep Prasad and Howard R. Baum

Choi, S.K., Burgess, I.W. and Plank, R.J., 'The Behaviour of Lightweight Composite Floor Trusses in Fire', ASCE Specialty Conference: Designing Structures for Fire, Baltimore, (Oct 2003) pp 24-32.

Jowsey et all, Determination of Fire Induced Collapse Mechanisms in Steel Framed Structures, 4th European Conference on Steel and Composite Structures, 10 June 05, 69-76

Usmani et all, Collapse scenarios of WTC 1 & 2 with extension to generic tall buildings, Oct-2006 Proceedings of the International Congress on Fire Safety in Tall Buildings

some related papers:

Interactive Failure of Two Impacting Beams Xiaoqing. Teng and Tomasz Wierzbicki. J. Engrg. Mech., Volume 129, Issue 8, pp. 918-926 (August 2003)

Use of High-Efficiency Energy Absorbing Device to Arrest Progressive Collapse of Tall Building Qing Zhou and T. X. Yu Journal of Engineering Mechanics 130, 1177 (2004)

A simple model of the World Trade Center fireball dynamics. Proceedings of the Combustion Institute 30:2, January, 2005. pp. 2247-2254. Baum, Howard R.; Rehm, Ronald G.

Reconnaissance and preliminary assessment of a damaged high-rise building near Ground Zero. The Structural Design of Tall and Special Buildings. 12 :5, 15 December 2003. pp. 371 - 391. Warn, Gordon; Berman, Jeffrey; Whittaker, Andrew; Bruneau, Michel

"Acoustic and Vibration Background Noise in the Collapsed Structure of the World Trade Center" Gabrielson, T.B., Poese, M.E., & Atchley, A.A., The Journal of Acoustical Society of America v. 113, no. 1, (2003): 45-48

John K. McGee et al, “Chemical Analysis of World Trade Center Fine Particulate Matter for Use in
Toxicologic Assessment”, Environmental Health Perspective (June 2003)

UC Davis Aerosol Study: Cahill et al., “Analysis of Aerosols from the World Trade Center
Collapse Site, New York, October 2 to October 30, 2001”, Aerosol Science and Technology,

Lioy et al, “Characterization of the Dust/Smoke Aerosol that Settled East of the World Trade Center
(WTC) in Lower Manhattan after the Collapse of the WTC 11 September 2001”, Environmental Health
Perspectives, Volume 110 #7

Originally posted by cashlink


I just proved to you that the FBI will not release the black box SS#
Are you hand waveing this proof?

Social Secuirty #? Are you talking about the Serial Number? The FBI will not release it? I thought it was the NTSB and they said they don't have records of them. I could be mistaken, but did the FBI state they had them and will not release them?

Originally posted by cashlink

You just ignore what I just presented to you!
Is the pot calling the kettle black!

See you don't want to find the truth, and I just proved it!

You proved absolutely NADA. You cut and pasted an article from Rob Balsamo's pathetic website.

They stated there was not any hooplah surrounding the release of the FDR information.

What does that prove?

They stated that on other high profile airline crashes that "'Black Box' serial numbers are reported among past high profile, major aviation accidents, including those under the jurisdiction of the FBI, setting precedent."

I am still looking for your proof.... that the FBI refused to release any information.

The only response to the FOIA that I have seen was from the NTSB. Thats not to say there may have been one. If you have a refusal to release information letter from the FBI, please present it.

Thank you