Question for all past and present Military personel!

I think it is a bad idea for any military member (or former member) to voice their position on such a matter. We have all been to the LOAC briefings and we have all take the oath of service. We should all understand the implications of such a situation and, as such, we should already know what side of the battle lines we will be on. This is not an issue of duty but an issue of ethics. It goes to the very reasons behind raising your hand at MEPS. Any current or former member of the military should fear such an event to his or her very core.

Is the OP implying knowledge of some impending event or is this strictly hypothetical? No need to answer if you fear retribution. U2U if you do not want to post publicly.

Originally posted by Smokinbbl
What would you do if you found out that the government you worked for was a lie... And what would you do if you where givin an asignment to go into the streets, and start aresting / killing American civilians?

Or my favorite.. What would you do if you were ordered to go house to house and start confiscating legal guns from law abiding citizens?

What if our government went crazy, and started killing American citizens? How could we get out of it?

The goverment lies,polititions lie,churches lie, people lie. the reason people join the military tend to be (speaking for myself) is the principles and concepts do not. You may not agree with what the goverment does but the "ideals" of freedom are the main reason. If or when or can the goverment change and attack itself and it's people? Yes and for me it would come down to the moment I was asked to do something I thought was against what I thought was right. It's like the Mae Li killings, you can be a sheep or you can make a stand. It's no different then asking if you were at home and the goverment came to take your guns or lock you up would you kill another american doing what they think is correct and who otherwise is not hurting you? It depends on what you believe and where you stand.you may think david Koresh was insane or a sait it's all about prespective. People die for prespective sadly.

Originally posted by ObamasLoveChild
Is the OP implying knowledge of some impending event or is this strictly hypothetical? No need to answer if you fear retribution. U2U if you do not want to post publicly.

No this is strictly hypothetical!

Originally posted by Wotan

Originally posted by Smokinbbl
What would you do if you found out that the government you worked for was a lie... And what would you do if you where givin an asignment to go into the streets, and start aresting / killing American civilians?

Or my favorite.. What would you do if you were ordered to go house to house and start confiscating legal guns from law abiding citizens?

What if our government went crazy, and started killing American citizens? How could we get out of it?

Well the only problem I would have is finding any americans where I live

I think you are getting the Police confused with the military. The police already do this domestically, the military do this abroad.

i wouldn't trust any grunt in any army, with anything, no affence to anyone, but stupid is as stupid does, and a lot of you are stupid, or you wouldn't be fighting (i use the term "fighting" lightly) anyway.

I served in the U.S. Navy from 89-93 as a Corpsman. I even had the pleasure to serve in the first tussle in the sandobx, aka desert shield/storm), I was with Fleet Hospital 5.

I understand your question and can see soldiers marching on our streets in the future, but I think you are wrong in your assumption that it will be the all volunteer military that we have now.

If you have watched the trend of how our government uses the military in the last ten years you will notice a change, it started subtle but now is the norm more then the strange. That change is that there is more and more government contracts for what I like to call "Corporate Soldiers".

This is companies like Blackwater. Blackwater is probably the most well known in the media but trust me there are many companies that operate like blackwater. I feel that it will be these soldiers that are tasked by the government to police our civilians.

I have always heard that there is a hugh road block against the Government that prevents them from using the military against its own people, what a slick way to circumvent that by contracting a civilian company that is better equipped, and better paided to carry out military actions.

That in my honest opinion, is the only way to pull that off. My few years in the "official" military, i've met alot of our bravest and I can not see them picking up a rifle and turning against the civilian population like you have described in your question.

But hey thats just my opinion.

reply to post by Wifiman


Does anyone remember the National Guard troops disarming the civilians in New Orleans after Katrina? They didn't seem to have too much of a problem with it then.

In 1970 when my trip across the pond was complete, I was assigned to the Presidio of San Francisco. Late in that same year, anti-war protestors planned to stage a march on the Presidio. At this time, many bombings were occurring, to include a SF Police station. UC Berkeley and SDS were in full glory at the time.

One morning, the company was assembled and told in 2 days we were to stand guard around the eastern perimeter to "protect" the post from the students march to the Presidio's front gate. We had two days to prepare. We were told that weapons would be issued as well as live ammo, if necessary!

Upon being dismissed, we returned to the barracks, and for a while there was nothing but dead silence. Many of us had just returned from Vietnam, and now our Government wanted us to possibly fire on the people we had fought "to protect". We did not know what we would or should do. Shooting fellow American's because they were protesting a war which many of us vet's had our doubts about, was not the moral choice we wanted to make. We had taken the oath to protect, foreign and domestic, but this was something none of us wanted to participate in.

In secret, a group of us decided we would stand guard, but would not fire upon the students and accept whatever punishment the Army deemed fitting. Possibly many years of hard labor. We also knew that the Presidio brig was one of the worst in the US. (The weekly shower was administered by a guard with a fire hose!!) To say the least, the troops were rattled.

By the next day, Company commanders throughout the post caught wind of the situation and reported up the chain of command. The brass got together at 6th Army Headquarters, I'm sure to discuss the situation. Remember, Nixon was President and I think Kent State was on their minds. (My presumption) This was a dangerous situation. Troops shooting college kids. That's not suppose to happen, here in America.

The next morning, the day of the march, we were again musterd by the company commander, and were told we would not be used to guard the post. A sign of relief went through the ranks. We were all "off the hook" and the march went off without incident.

The point I am trying to make is that, at least with some vet's (and I can only speak for a few) an unlawful military order to use force against American citizens acting within their constitutional rights will present a major moral dilemma to deal with. I also believe the military command structure is aware of this.

Another fact the military is well aware of, there are 25 million vet's in this country (most of them armed) and they just happen to be the fathers, mothers and grandparents of current active duty military personel. Would they fire on their family and friends? How about the family of the trooper standing next to you, the one covering your back? I don't know if the government wants to take that chance. The PTB don't like to gamble. They prefer to play only sure winners!!

IMHO the government would be taking great risk at attempting to use US military forces against its own citizens. And then we have local police agencies. I've asked a few friends in LAPD and the LA Sheriff's Dept what they would do. They would side with their families. I hope so and I hope we never have to find out.

As for me, I am lucky I'm not STILL in the brig at the Presidio of San Francisco.

Oldnslo - RA18861729 MOS: 67N20 U.S. Army 1968-1971

Speaking as a former Army Tanker I'd have to say that some orders shouldn't be followed. It's as simple as that. It may be very difficult to choose not to do as you're told but it's very clear that soldiers are taught not to follow an illegal order. EVERY soldier should also follow his or her own conscience as well. I would never fire on a US citizen regardless of circumstance.

The situation you outlined is the reason that private military are used in trouble spots in the US. During Katrina it was Blackwater patrolling on the streets not the US army. I was Army infantry and was trained in M.O.U.T. operations and served in a MOUT unit (Berlin) we were trained in house to house and block by block military operations.

I can tell you if it comes to complying with an illegal order the people in my unit would have refused because we also swore to defend the constitution. That is the law of the land and that is also the reason that private units like Blackwater will end up with that duty.

[edit on 8/2/2008 by UFOTECH]

I'm with yankeerose, Rick007,and joe_dirt976 all the way!

I've sworn to uphold our US Constitution, to protect our citizens from enemies foreign and domestic (that can also mean my own boss).
We are briefed before any excersise/mission, and debriefed in AAR, never to obey unlawful orders! In the unlikely event they'd send out us troops against civvies (as opposed to, say, blackwater-esque folks) I would speak my mind/challenge orders/lay down my weapon/ or if the situation is not so bleak I can even see myself following Apex' footsteps.

I am currently in the military and I have given an oath to protect the Constitution of the United States against all enemies foreign and domestic like many have said in this thread. Having given this oath however, I am not allowed or will fill out orders that are against the laws of this nation. If I was told to go around and start confiscating weapons from U.S. civilians I would definitely not obey them because they would be unlawful orders according to our rights. Hell, I have many weapons myself. If weapons were outlawed in the U.S. I would fight to keep mine until my death. Basically, my oath would be broken because the basic laws of the constitution would be destroyed.

[edit on 2-8-2008 by Jo Jo]

Walk a mile in our shoes. Sitting in a Berkley classroom it's easy to judge others. Now get this, you that think a soldier is a robot and will "kill on command" needs to realize that we are human. The miltiary order goes roughly like this, God, Family, Country, Self. Do you see what order is what? Family comes before country. Self is last, as it should be. We sacrifice ourselves for the betterment of everyone. If you haven't served a greater cause yet, or even let go of your mother's apron strings, head on over to the local Peace Corps office and make a difference with serving someone else rather than yourself.

i'm sorry if i seemed to have jumped the gun there op. but if you're in the af like you say you are then you should very well know the core values (my sig) and the culture we are taught there. you also know the endless amount of rules set in place for these line of things. maybe you lost faith in the service, i don't know, but everyone else knows what they support and stand for. shouldn't be posting these kind of topics if you're working or planning on working sensitive jobs, you know very well this site is a hot bed of dissenting thoughts. well enough of that, if i was told that we were going to be sweeping homes looking for hajis, sign me up then, because these terrorist scum bags need to know we're not playing around. and i'm sure you're not even thinking about it, but to anyone who is, don't desert the forces, you signed yourself up on your own free will and to do so would be the most despisable act one could do. op, don't worry about it, support YOUR troops. out

reply to post by Smokinbbl


I would turn my weapons upon those who sent me to murder the innocent. It would be the end of their reign of terror upon the American People.

Originally posted by joe_dirt976
i'm sorry if i seemed to have jumped the gun there op. but if you're in the af like you say you are then you should very well know the core values (my sig) and the culture we are taught there. you also know the endless amount of rules set in place for these line of things. maybe you lost faith in the service, i don't know, but everyone else knows what they support and stand for. shouldn't be posting these kind of topics if you're working or planning on working sensitive jobs, you know very well this site is a hot bed of dissenting thoughts. well enough of that, if i was told that we were going to be sweeping homes looking for hajis, sign me up then, because these terrorist scum bags need to know we're not playing around. and i'm sure you're not even thinking about it, but to anyone who is, don't desert the forces, you signed yourself up on your own free will and to do so would be the most despisable act one could do. op, don't worry about it, support YOUR troops. out

I think we have a record of commas in lieu of periods. Can someone call Guiness for the longest run-on sentence with almost proper grammer?

Originally posted by Smokinbbl
What would you do if you found out that the government you worked for was a lie

Exactly what I have been doing all these years, exposing every thing I have found, showing people the truth about the govs corruption. See my many posts from beginning to end, it was my primary reason for joining ATS.

... And what would you do if you where givin an asignment to go into the streets, and start aresting / killing American civilians?

I would go awol, head home and start a resistance. Some thing I'm not worried about admitting to. They spent $1million training me, I can spend $0 teaching it to others.

Or my favorite.. What would you do if you were ordered to go house to house and start confiscating legal guns from law abiding citizens?

Tell them it is an illegal order, and report said order to congress, senate and my congressman. I would inform the media, and make sure the public was alerted.

What if our government went crazy, and started killing American citizens? How could we get out of it?

I would organise the resistance, and help them develop a counter offensive. Plan a movement on Capitol Hill, and retake the government as stated in our Declaration of Independance;

But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security

Sounds like that would qualify as an unlawful order, in which case you could refuse the order and place the issuing officer under arrest if he still persisted or attempted to order someone else...

Of course this would not be an easy thing to do, but in writing you would be correct to do just that..

Something similar happened in Vietnam where a chopper pilot was ordered to fire on civilians fleeing a village that had been "zippo raided" by US troops. The pilot refused the order and actually provided covering fire to the fleeing women and children, landed to evacuate them and Im pretty sure he arrested or spoke out enough so that the officer in question was arrested and charged with war crimes.. Im sure some of you guys know most of the details, dont hesitate to correct me if im wrong..

The above example would fit a good "backed up" answer to your OP nicely I should think...

sorry about the last post. i'm using a cell a the moment.