IF your God told you to kill yourself, would you?

Originally posted by saint4God

Originally posted by justamomma
Are you joking or being serious??

I am just curious because the Yoda talk is throwing me off on your intentions in what you said, seriously.

The content is serious, the manner of speaking was a stylistic presentation. In translation to the person I was replying to, "just because you can't understand someone else's viewpoint doesn't mean their retarded. Rather, you would need to see things from their point of view in order to be able to understand."

[edit on 31-7-2008 by saint4God]

If we can get something wrong we will. And we use words to make things in to a rittel.

I know of no reason to believe that anything you just wrote down is true.

Originally posted by queenofangels_17
Outofthebox,

God is a good without which there is nothing good; God is a being without which there is nothing that is; God is a life without which there is nothing that live; so great that He fills all and is everywhere. He alone has no equal. He has had no beginning, nor will He ever have an end, but to everything has He given a beginning, and to everything shall He give an end. He has no father nor mother; he has no sons, no brothers, nor companions. And because God has no body, therefore He eats not, sleep not, die not, walk not, move not, but abides eternally without human similitude, for that He is incorporeal, uncompounded, immaterial, of the most simple substance. He is so good that he loves goodness only; He is so just that when he punishes or pardons it cannot be gainsaid. In short, here on earth we cannot see Him nor know Him perfectly; but in His kingdom we shall see Him for ever: wherein consists all our happiness and glory.'

thinking out of the box is good, but let's stop short of blaspheming God and by giving Him a human similitude. mankind has a beginning and will have an end. but God existed from the beginning, Self-created, Eternal, Incorruptible, everything in the heavens and in the earth will perish and God alone will remain, to whom belongs all praise and glory.

reply to post by saint4God


Their view point is distorted. Are you telling me that I should just understand ppl like James (Jim) Jones? Why?

See, the emotional aspect is mute when someone decides to end their life and/or the lives of others simply bc they "feel" that god told them to.

It is sick and twisted.



[edit on 31-7-2008 by justamomma]

Originally posted by OutoftheBoxthinker

Originally posted by spy66
God is something we look upon as above ouer self. A lot higher then ouer self in fact. God is a higher beeing. God is The creator. God is the beginning and the end.

What if there is nothing higher than us but nature itself? What is nature = God?

Originally posted by spy66
And we worship this belife. And its common sense to do it. Like we worship other things in this world.

I don't worship anything or anyone and I don't see a point in doing so.

Originally posted by spy66
If you deny that God exist what dose youre common sense say. Dose it say no right away. Dose your ecommon sense say that its impossibel for him to exist.

My common sense says there is nothing higher than nature.

You belive in nature. And you think nature = God

Then what made the univers for ouer nature to exist.

Originally posted by spy66
You belive in nature. And you think nature = God

Then what made the univers for ouer nature to exist.

Nothing. IMO, time and space are circular. This implies that the universe has always existed and will always exist and that there are no boundries to the physical space of the universe, yet neither are infinite.

Originally posted by justamomma
reply to post by spy66

 

I agree whole heartedly!!!

Someone who kills themself citing whatever reason is just being silly.

About the only exception I make to this is in cases such as the ppl jumping from the building on 9/11. In that case, my heart feels heavy.

Yes same here. When you are in a stat that they were in. You make choises. And hope for the best. But i bet they praid to God before they jumped.

Originally posted by OutoftheBoxthinker

Originally posted by spy66
You belive in nature. And you think nature = God

Then what made the univers for ouer nature to exist.

Nothing. IMO, time and space are circular. This implies that the universe has always existed and will always exist and that there are no boundries to the physical space of the universe, yet neither are infinite.

I dont think you will get many to belive in that. Not even a scientist.

See this movie. Its pritty good but long.

www.youtube.com...

reply to post by saint4God


saint4God,

what I just said came from the uncorrupted Torah, written by the hand of Moses, verified by the Holy Qur'an, the watcher of all the Holy scriptures.

Isaac was never the ONLY begotten son of Abraham, when the false Pharisees corrupted the Book of Moses they forgot to take the word only begotten... how can Isaac be the only begotten son of Abraham if Ismael was already 7 years old when Isaac was born?

For the angel said: "Abraham, all the world shall know how God loves you; but how shall the world know the love that you bear to God? Assuredly it is necessary that you do something for love of God." Abraham answered: 'Behold the servant of God, ready to do all that which God shall will.'
Then spoke God, saying to Abraham: "Take your son, your firstborn Ishmael and come up the mountain to sacrifice him.

And if Isaac was the father of the Messenger of God, why did David in spirit, called the Messenger of God as Lord?

Then Jesus said: "And the Messenger of God when he shall come, of what lineage will he be?" The disciples answered: "Of David." Whereupon Jesus said: "You deceive yourselves; for David in spirit calls him lord, saying thus: God said to my lord, sit you on my right hand until I make your enemies your footstool. God shall send forth your rod which shall have lordship in the midst of your enemies. If the Messenger of God were the son of David, how should David call him lord? Believe me, for truly I say to you, that the promise was made in Ishmael, not in Isaac."

'Tell me, brother, you that are a doctor learned in the Law in whom was the promise of the Messiah made to our father Abraham? In Isaac or in Ishmael." The scribe answered: 'O master, I fear to tell you this, because of the penalty of death.' Then Jesus said: 'Brother, I am grieved that I came to eat bread in your house, since you love this present life more than God your creator; and for this cause you fear to lose your life, but fear not to lose the faith and the life eternal, which is lost when the tongue speaks contrary to that which the heart knows of the Law of God. Then the good scribe wept, and said: "O master, if I had known how to bear fruit, I should have preached many things which I have left unsaid lest sedition should be roused among the people."

Jesus answered: "You should respect neither the people, nor all the world, nor all the holy ones, nor all the angels, when it should cause offence to God. Wherefore let the whole [world] perish rather than offend God your creator, and preserve it not with sin. For sin destroys and preserves not, and God is mighty to create as many worlds as there are sands in the sea, and more."

The scribe then said: "Pardon me, O master, for I have sinned." Jesus said: "God pardon you. for against him have you sinned."
Whereupon said the scribe: I have seen an old book; written by the hand of Moses and Joshua ;(he who made the sun stand still; as you have done), servants and prophets of God, which book is the true Book of Moses. Therein is written that Ishmael is the father of the Messenger of God and Isaac the father of the messenger of the Messenger of God. And thus says the book, that Moses said: "Lord God of Israel, mighty and merciful, manifest to your servant the splendour of your glory."

Whereupon God showed him his Messenger in the arms of Ishmael, and Ishmael in the arms of Abraham. Near to Ishmael stood Isaac, in whose arms was a child, who with his finger pointed to the Messenger of God, saying: "This is he for whom God has created all things." Whereupon Moses cried out with joy: "O Ishmael, you have in your arms all the world, and paradise! Be mindful of me, God's servant, that I may find grace in God's sight by means of your son, for whom God has made all."

Jesus was the child in the arms of Isaac, who brought the good tidings of the coming of the Messenger of God. As verified by the Holy Qur'an.

061.006 And when Jesus son of Mary said: O Children of Israel! Lo! I am the messenger of Allah unto you, confirming that which was (revealed) before me in the Torah, and bringing good tidings of a messenger who cometh after me, whose name is Muhammad (the Praised One). Yet when he hath come unto them with clear proofs, they say: This is mere magic.

033.040 Muhammad is not the father of any man among you, but he is the Messenger of Allah and the Seal of the Prophets; and Allah is ever Aware of all things.

All these God has revealed in the Holy Qur'an so that we, the Children of Israel will be undeceived, and so that the Truth will set us free.



[edit on 31-7-2008 by queenofangels_17]

[edit on 31-7-2008 by queenofangels_17]

If I'm not mistaking, this corresponds with how Hindus view the world. Anyway, it's the only explanation that makes sense.

Originally posted by spy66

Originally posted by OutoftheBoxthinker

Originally posted by spy66
You belive in nature. And you think nature = God

Then what made the univers for ouer nature to exist.

Nothing. IMO, time and space are circular. This implies that the universe has always existed and will always exist and that there are no boundries to the physical space of the universe, yet neither are infinite.

I dont think you will get many to belive in that. Not even a scientist.

Originally posted by justamomma
Their view point is distorted.

This is a judgemental thing to say. I hope you can see that at the very least.

Originally posted by justamomma
Are you telling me that I should just understand ppl like James (Jim) Jones? Why?

We should attempt to understand everyone. There will be such people we'll see and say "you know what, I just don't get it" and that is fine. I have a friend who is schizophrenic and after reading her blog, I get some of it...but I'll never fully understand what it is like to live with the condition. The greater danger is 'playing God' and judging others as derelicts of the world. Are we to fear trying to understand James (Jim) Jones? In doing so, do we become them? I hope the answer is 'no'.

Originally posted by justamomma
See, the emotional aspect is mute when someone decides to end their life and/or the lives of others simply bc they "feel" that god told them to.

Who are you to say God did not tell them to?

Originally posted by justamomma
It is sick and twisted.

And with that judgement, I'll be on my way.

Originally posted by queenofangels_17
what I just said came from the uncorrupted Torah, written by the hand of Moses, verified by the Holy Qur'an, the watcher of all the Holy scriptures.

I've had this discussion often before. I understand you believe the Qur'an is uncorrupted but the Bible (New Testament specifically) is. Certainly you're welcome to believe as you wish, I was doing my best to 'not go there' as it does not apply to the topic of this thread. The Bible and Qur'an are in conflict in a number of places, specifically where the Bible says Christ died and rose again.

Originally posted by saint4God

Originally posted by justamomma
Their view point is distorted.

This is a judgemental thing to say. I hope you can see that at the very least.

Everything I say is judgemental. So is everything you say. We are judgemental creatures, what can I say?

Originally posted by justamomma
Are you telling me that I should just understand ppl like James (Jim) Jones? Why?

We should attempt to understand everyone. There will be such people we'll see and say "you know what, I just don't get it" and that is fine. I have a friend who is schizophrenic and after reading her blog, I get some of it...but I'll never fully understand what it is like to live with the condition. The greater danger is 'playing God' and judging others as derelicts of the world. Are we to fear trying to understand James (Jim) Jones? In doing so, do we become them? I hope the answer is 'no'.

Oh, trust me. When my brother committed suicide, I spent several
years trying to understand it. The conclusion was those who commit suicide are either selfish, cowardly, and/or demented (w/ the exception still of cases like 9/11... the jumpings).

Why don't you put some of what you are "preaching" to me into pratice and try to understand me.

What good is going to do for me to try and understand the acts of a selfish or demented person? Do you think they deserve my time or pity? I hardly think so.

Originally posted by justamomma
See, the emotional aspect is mute when someone decides to end their life and/or the lives of others simply bc they "feel" that god told them to.

Who are you to say God did not tell them to?

Where did I say that "god" didn't tell them to do so?

god: the supreme or ultimate reality

I will give you that their perception of the ultimate reality could be one w/ a god telling them to do such a thing.

Doesn't make it right or worthy of being understood and/or pitied.

I respect their choice. Like I said, one less idiot on the earth.

Originally posted by justamomma
It is sick and twisted.

And with that judgement, I'll be on my way.


How dare you judge my judgement by calling it a judgement.

So much for following your own preachings of understanding, huh?

[edit on 31-7-2008 by justamomma]

reply to post by OutoftheBoxthinker


it's your choice...you're the warden of your own soul.

Originally posted by queenofangels_17

it's your choice...you're the warden of your own soul.

I sure am. Since I abandoned Christianity and humanism for Integral Tradition, everything makes far more sense

Originally posted by justamomma
The conclusion was those who commit suicide are either selfish, cowardly, and/or demented (w/ the exception still of cases like 9/11... the jumpings).

This simply is not true and I'm sorry you feel this way. Many people are suicidal (as I was at one point) because they feel they're causing more harm to the world than good.

Originally posted by justamomma
I respect their choice. Like I said, one less idiot on the earth.

Please be fair to us idiots who have chosen to stay.

[edit on 31-7-2008 by saint4God]

Originally posted by saint4God
This simply is not true and I'm sorry you feel this way. Many people are suicidal (as I was at one point) because they feel they're causing more harm to the world than good.

Most people who are suicidal just don't see anything worth to continue to live for. Especially those with little social contacts don't see any point in living. It's a normal consequence of the nihilist nature of consumerism and humanism.

Originally posted by queenofangels_17
thinking out of the box is good, but let's stop short of blaspheming God and by giving Him a human similitude.

Who's God shall we stop blaspheming? Just curious.

If you believe in the Christian God, then you are in essence blaspheming the Muslim's God (even though technically they the same origin), etc.

These are gods that we have been taught by man. These are perceptions of reality that other men have had and the masses love to follow someone else's point of view rather than forming their own.

YOu say he was blaspheming God........ I say he was blaspheming your perception of a god.

[edit on 31-7-2008 by justamomma]

Wow!, I would like to state how astounded I am at the amount of respect for each other contained in this thread. I seldom read religious threads here on ATS as the are so infuriating. The bickering, name calling and "you going to hell" usually makes the read a horrible chore. I do not know if the earth just tilted on it's axis or something but this truly seems to be a milestone here on ATS. Though your beliefs vary, I would be proud to call the majority of you a friend or a brother. Now thats what I am talking about, a true debate! Thank you so much guys. I look forward to hearing from all of you on future issues. Did I just say that?




~Hyp

Originally posted by justamomma
YOu say he was blaspheming God........ I say he was blaspheming your perception of a god.

Blasphemy is such a weird word. I would contend that even if we have a sour thought about a homeless person, that's a blasphemy against God because in that moment we're devoid of the love and compassion God tells us to have. Most of the time in the Bible, the word blasphemy was used by finger-pointers who were often guilty of sins themselves. Christ was accused of blasphemy to the point they crucified him. So...if the Son of God is accused of such, would I be offended if someone accused me of blasphemy? For every finger that is pointed at me, there are three pointed back at the accuser.

Thanks for the thread HypnoAsp, I'm surprised at the thread myself. I expecting everyone to say how looney it is to be a believer and for more believers to claim that God would never make such a command. Rather, it has been a more positive response from both. I'd like to see a more diligent effort from all of us to stay on topic, however. Even I'm distracted...specifically from your portrait even, wondering it's meaning.

[edit on 31-7-2008 by saint4God]