The real conspiracy of 9/11

All too often, Americans (most of all) find ways to make ourselves seem more revered, more "elite" and more dangerous. In more ways than good, mind you.

Whenever something catastrophic happens in this country - the first inclination of a CTer is to blame the US government. 9/11 is the poster child for this argument.

As if a sequel to the movie Swordfish, 9/11 has been the largest central debate for government conspiracies and cover ups since Roswell. Wherein there seem to be "secret agents" living the life of luxury who attack America, so American can go into another country and "defend" democracy.

A little something i've learned to live by:

If it seems too Hollywood, then it probably isnt true.

That said, what's the conspiracy?

America, in the global sense, will always be despised by some. It's natural to be "hated" by a few when you're on top (and even more - on top is subjective to who you talk to). Example: Microsoft, google, etc, all become targets of microscopic scrutiny simply because they're on top - they have to be corrupt, because there is no other answer in the minds of some.

America has been, for a while, the target of several extremists of all kinds. If this were not true, then why the need for a CIA? Why the need for a Department of Defense, etc?

9/11 conspiracies for the most part, seem to suggest that ONLY the US government is capable of attacking America. That no foriegn entity could ever penetrate our 'defenses' and attack us from within, because, seemingly, we are 'just that damn good'.

The problem with this line of thinking is that its just plain not true.
The same kind of people who convey this type of mentality, will tell you

America can't be attacked, our government is too good
on one hand


and


Our government is weak and frail, our election system is void and pointless, our country is crap
on the other hand.


Both arguments are a conundrum and both arguments cancel one another out. Afterall, how can a weak and frail government be attacked if they're so good, that only they can attack themselves.


I believe that foreign entities, such as Al Qaeda, who do have a global reach to spread their ideals of destruction, can see this flaw of the American people clear as day.
Americans don't trust their government anymore, only in times of natural disaster, and even then, nothing is ever good enough.

What better way for a "terrorist" to achieve his or her goals, than to not only kill Americans, but create more distrust and animosity for our own government? Creating anti-american sentiments that sympathize with more hostile nations abroad?

The reason America was attacked was not so America could go to war .

To give you a mental description of what "America" has become, please refer to the newest Charlie and the Chocolate factory movie (bare with me here)

Remember the "video game" kid who was into electronics, seemed to know everything?

This is what i believe that much of the world views the United States as. An annoying adolescent (chronologically speaking, thats all we are) who is too damn smart for our own good.

This country flaunts its "intelligence" abroad in the form of democracy and war. If we see something we dont like, we start a war on it.

The war on drugs
The war on terror
The war on communism
The war on......(insert madlib here)

And there are those who would see to shut us up for it.

Please do not take my rambling as "Anti-American"...certainly it is not. I see it as pro-american. I do not believe our government would find such an attack at all appropriate, and never would it be capable without some sort of leak.

If the 9/11 attacks were by our government, the coordination and scale of such a secret would be unfathomable. The more people you include in a secret, the more times it's going to be broken.


The real conspiracy is the refusal of some to open their eyes and realize what our government has become.

Our government has not become a 'national sadomasochist' where they choose to inflict pain on themselves in order to achieve pleasure (war)

They HAVE become a sort of nuisance to the rest of the world. Now i say this about our GOVERNMENT, and not about the American People. So save your anti-American labels for someone who truly deserves it.

And according to Occams Razor (which i vest a lot of faith in)

The simplest explanation is often the right one.

That being said: I rest my case.





[edit on 7/25/2008 by Andrew E. Wiggin]

Well first of all i can see how there can be some attacks on america but my biggest peice of proof is that a "plane" hit the pentogon. OH MY GOB give me a break the pentagon is the most secure building/site in the world for it holds so many dark secrets. but anyways people in the pentagon know if anything (above 100 feet or so) is within 1000 miles. so that if not the twin towers had to be an inside job. even though i beleive that the twin towers were also an inide job

Originally posted by 2991brownj
but anyways people in the pentagon know if anything (above 100 feet or so) is within 1000 miles

Apparently they were 'out to lunch' on Sept 11 2001.

reply to post by 2991brownj


This is exactly what im saying

our government is so good, but they're too dumb to properly stage a plane crash?
Do you not see the utter ridiculousness in the idea that a bunch of internet "detectives" can decipher the 'attacks' as staged and phoney simply by looking at a few pictures.

IMO - and call me stupid if you want - If you werent there to investigate, and instead go off of a few pictures from only a few vantage points, then you cannot discernibly say
"its fake because the #2 fuselage propulsion system doesn't have the section 14 quadrant A label" or something equally as rediculous.

And its not just 9/11. There is a war and peace book of government conspiracies. Now - i admit - some of them are probably true.

But the 9/11 conspiracy isnt that AMERICA attacked Americans, its that America has festered the sour taste in other mouths creating the attack on America.

[edit on 7/25/2008 by Andrew E. Wiggin]

Originally posted by Andrew E. Wiggin
As if a sequel to the movie Swordfish, 9/11 has been the largest central debate for government conspiracies and cover ups since Roswell.

I guess you missed the Kennedy assassination, which kind of goes to my point. I think you need to look a little deeper into things, improve your education.

A lot of what you say is valid in a general sort of way. I was going to post a video with my response. It was a short clip of Yasser Arafat responding to the 9/11 attack shortly after it occurred. Unfortunately it may have been removed from the YouTube and Google Video because I can't find it. It's a very humble presentation and that might be why it's hard to find..

He was being extremely careful to express his sorrow at the attack and to convey condolences to New Yorkers and Americans in general. I'm sure he was petrified. I'm sure he knew what the US response to such an attack would be.

Bin Laden's first response to the attack is similarly subdued. He denies responsability and speculates that the attack must have been perpetrated by someone for reasons of their own.

Nobody like bin Laden or Arafat would try a stunt like that. The consequences are too dire and too obvious, and that, on the other hand makes it a very plausible pretext upon which to start an agenda of agression, for a group within the US government determined to pursue a policy of agression.

If you research 9/11, there is a lot to support the notion that it was part of a plan made in the USA.

I think you have some insight into the conundrum of reverse racism, though. The mistaken notion that people in underdeveloped countries are incapable of harming the US and therefore Americans must have staged the 9/11 attacks.

I think you are right that that sort of reasoning doesn't hold water. There are numerous other reasons to believe that 9/11 was homegrown though.

Originally posted by ipsedixit

I guess you missed the Kennedy assassination, which kind of goes to my point. I think you need to look a little deeper into things, improve your education.

Hilarious. Simply Hilarious.

I need to improve my education because i dont conform to any sort of drone-like pandering that is involved in both sides of the 9/11 argument?

Hmm. Alright then

I do look deeper into things, but keep in mind, the "deeper you go" the easier it is to prove anything is real, regardless of what is right in front of you.

Sometimes, the simplest explanation is easiest.

And this time, falls right into that category.

If 9/11 was a homegrown job........i have yet to see one single, solitary shred of CREDIBLE proof that doesnt come from a 24 year old "internet detective" who thinks because he can hop on google earth and show me pictures of a chasm near the crash site in Penn. that he can prove 9/11 was done by the US government.


As i said earlier, and you back it up with your reply.

EVERYTHING that happens to America seems to be done by the US Government. EVERYTHING.

To me - it is a more accurate statement that says maybe you should better educate yourself, instead of regurgitating what other CTers tell you to.

Just my 2 cents however.

reply to post by Andrew E. Wiggin


Can you explain why the Administration was against an investigation? Why after they reluctantly agreed to an investigation, they tried to stonewall a lot of attempts to get the necessary information? Why was Kissinger appointed to head an investigation? Why did the Commission refused to answer 75% of the questions raised by the victims families? Why did the Commission deem the financier of the attacks, "of little significance?" Why the Commission omitted Norman Mineta's testimony, and contradicted it with Cheney arriving at the PEOC well after the attacks? Why did the Commission fail to mention WTC7? Why did the Commission fail to mention Able Danger? Why is Sibel Edmonds gagged?

These questions, to me, show a cover up. But what is being covered up? You previously mentioned that everyone knows the government is incompetent. So, would they try to cover up something that is common knowledge? Or is something else being covered up?

If anyone can answer just this small portion of the many questions I have raised, please do so.

Once you realize there was a cover up, then you must speculate as to why there was a cover up, which is the same thing people are doing who believe there was a conspiracy. They are just trying to figure out what happened and why. If you don't see the cover up, then I honestly don't know what you are looking at.

Proof That Computer* Technology Was Used to Fake the 2nd Plane

Plane Hit Section

Please note that we are not saying that a large plane, perhaps even an airliner did not fly by the WTC. We are saying that these and all of the released videos and stills of the 2nd hit are faked.

Please watch the CNN clip and this slide show and see the angle of the plane as it approaches and hits the building. The plane is banked at a significant angle. When a plane is banked to the left, the plane is rising to the left - the whole plane. When the nose hits a stationary object, it stops rising. The tail and wings continue to rise. When the wings hit, they stop and the tail continues to rise. The outline of the plane in the building should have been something between a head on and an outline of the top of the plane. Since the outline is straight on, this is a proof that an airplane did not hit the building. Blue screen technology was used to fake this footage. Here is another comparison.

Notice also that the plane goes into four floors of over 3000 tons of concrete and steel like they are butter. Some have claimed that the outer beams were thin at this level so they were merely like "mosquito netting". The laws of physics are based on relative motion. A grain of sand moving at high speed in space will punch right through a space craft as it is vaporized. The point is that both objects are subject to the same force. When a truck hits a motorcycle at high speed, the truck's front end is greatly damaged (see side panel below). Moreover, if you look at the hole that was made, the planes hit 4 or more floors. Each floor was a giant, thick, concrete, steel rimed pan having significant mass. The floor systems were approximately 31,000 square feet and had a composite construction with steel beams of 50 ksi yield strength supporting concrete slabs on metal deck, with a floor thickness of 5.5 in. (NIST executive summary, page 4). There was approximately 900 tons of concrete per floor (Morgan Reynolds gave me the concrete numbers. He is working on the total per floor, which is far greater, and he will be presenting his case soon). The aircraft weighed approximately 140 tons. This means that 140 tons hit over 3,600 tons of concrete plus all the steel in the pans and exterior columns! Furthermore, the majority of the airplanes mass is in the wing struts, the engines, the main landing gear (in the wings), and the engine mounts. The nose of the 767 aircraft is thin. The leading edge of the wings are thin. When they hit the concrete pans on the 4 or more floors, they should have been severely deformed, possibly bounced off, not gone in as if the building was made of butter.

www.reopen911.org...

reply to post by Andrew E. Wiggin

Andrew, you need to improve your writing style as well as your education. It's difficult to understand you because you don't write clearly. Irony for example needs to be communicated carefully, otherwise people may take you literally rather than ironically.

When you say, "As i said earlier, and you back it up with your reply.

EVERYTHING that happens to America seems to be done by the US Government. EVERYTHING. " it's not really clear if you mean that literally or are being ironic.

I apologize but I'm not really interested in going forward with this discussion. No offense meant. Have a great day.

reply to post by ipsedixit


See? More personal insults because you can't disprove it.
You'd do GREAT in the political forums...no no really.

No proof to back up a single claim - yet you stick to it so passionately and angrily, that you'll insult anyone who disagrees (even if slightly) with you.

Thats a wonderful way to deny ignorance


:shk:

[edit on 7/25/2008 by Andrew E. Wiggin]

reply to post by Andrew E. Wiggin


Andrew I noticed that you didn't respond to my post. So are we in agreement that the 9/11 Commission Report was a cover up? If we are, what do you suppose they are covering up? If we are not in agreement, then why do you suppose I have the questions that I do? Are there answers for these questions that I'm not aware of?

I don't believe the US Government was behind 9/11, but I do feel some people who hold government positions were. There aren't just two possible scenarios: Al-Quaeda or the US Government. It's odd that you are telling everyone to back up their version, but you don't seem to be unhappy that our government hasn't backed their version up either. A lot of us here are asking the same questions you are, but we are asking it of our government. Show us the proof. After all, we were told by Condoleezza Rice and Colin Powell just days after 9/11 that they had the proof and would show it to us and the world. Yet the proof was never shown. In fact, within days of the announcement they had the proof, the press secretary, who I believe was Scott McClellan, said they wouldn't be showing us anything. We were just supposed to trust them. This was all before the "Holy Grail" Bin Laden confession tape was found in Afghanistan. Sadly, that is all we were shown. Why are you not focusing your inquisition on the government. They supposedly can put all this to rest because they have the proof. Since they have failed to provide us any answers, people have been forced to try to answer the unanswered questions themselves.

Originally posted by Andrew E. Wiggin
If 9/11 was a homegrown job........i have yet to see one single, solitary shred of CREDIBLE proof that doesnt come from a 24 year old "internet detective" who thinks because he can hop on google earth and show me pictures of a chasm near the crash site in Penn. that he can prove 9/11 was done by the US government.

As i said earlier, and you back it up with your reply.

EVERYTHING that happens to America seems to be done by the US Government. EVERYTHING.

Well, let's see, there's the unresolved explosion of the USS Maine, the Lusitania, FDR's foreknowledge of Pearl Harbor, Operation Northwoods, Gulf of Tonkin, the USS Liberty, TWA 800, Pan Am 103, Ruby Ridge, Waco, Oklahoma City, Iraq's "weapons of mass destruction", etc., etc., etc.

If the government doesn't want to be the primary suspect in every disaster, maybe they should try telling the truth every once in a while.

You say you've never seen a single, solitary shred of proof that 9/11 was an inside job? I guess you aren't looking very hard, because there's actually not a whole lot of proof that it wasn't. The entire 9/11 government story is ridiculous and implausible from beginning to end. If you're a student at Illinois, you should be smart enough to realize this.

reply to post by GoldenFleece




A student huh?

I'm a little past College, thanks

Though the U of I did provide me with a wonderful Degree....

there still is nothing beyond speculation and conjecturs for a inside job conspiracy


the real conspiracy is the terrorists playing off of gullible people who will blame their government, before the terrorists themselves.


But hey - atleast those people get to be a part of something, right?

You make all those arguments without even looking at the evidence of a conspiracy actually taking place. You are generalizing conspiracies, making it sound like all of them are false.

Maybe you are not aware of some of the real conspiracies throughout history, I dont know. Or maybe you think conspiracies no longer happens in this day and age.

In any case, you would be very wise to look into 9/11 if you want to know the truth.

reply to post by Andrew E. Wiggin

I for one am happy you have a degree, no I am, but getting back to the topic at hand, ahem!!!!! I never thought for a minute that the government was behind the 9/11 attacks. I just did as GW told me, I was more vigilant, almost to the point of hating the middle easterners in our neighborhood, But then I came across sites like this one, did some video watching, then some research, I came to the conclusion that very little adds up, and you have yet to answer ramones questions, and while you answer those, answer this one for me.

What are the odds that the US military would be practicing for the very terrorist action that unfolded in front of their very own eyes, at the very same instant? Not a few hours later, or earlier, but at the very same instant. infinitesimal if you ask me, so there had to be the two parties in collusion because I don't believe it was just 19 highjackers with box cutters, because the passengers would have overwhelmed them imho.

For me what it all comes down to is this, WHY OH WHY would Osama and co attack the US knowing full well that they would unleash hell on earth inside there country? Osama had it good before all this rigamaroll went and hatched, he could go to and fro as he pleased he had lots of power and influence he had lots of easy financial ties. Now (presumably/supposedly) hes always on the run, hiding in caves his network of influence is all but obliterated, many members of his family and close friends have been killed or detained.

Tell me why a supposedly smart business man would willingly poke a big bear from his marble palace only to hide from it inside an old hollowed out log.

Im also sick of this sniveling BS that is constantly being peddled that the entire US GOVT is responsible for 9/11.. that is by far the most ignorant statement anyone could make.

At this point in the game if you dont realize that it wasn't the USA that was responsible for 9/11 then you should just pack it up and take up stamp collecting.

A few VERY well placed individuals with lots of power within all levels of the US GOVT were responsible not the entire country.

I dont WANT to believe that 9/11 was orchestrated by certain US citizens but in light of the overwhelming evidence that points me to believe this i dont see how anyone with half a brain COULDN'T see that this was planned from start to finish.

reply to post by Copernicus


I have looked @ the evidence, and here's a nutshell rendition of what there is


A chasm that existed before the plane went down

Holograms flying into the WTC

The jet engine doesnt look like it belongs at the crash site

the angle of the planes entrance doesnt match at the pentagon


there's so many different wild speculations.

you were there. So how can you tell what angle it came in at. Plane crashes aren't predicable as you would have them be. sorry.

if you were there, and you dont have video, good luck being 100% accurate.



The real conspiracy is the terrorists are smarter than we give them credit for, and play off the gullibility of people who create the "our govt created the attacks" theories.


Have fun with your conjectures, but really - in the end, tahts all they are.


The conspiracy still invovles our government, for not stopping the attacks before they happened.....so if you want to put the blame on them there, well....there ya go.

Originally posted by Andrew E. Wiggin
I have looked @ the evidence, and here's a nutshell rendition of what there is

Here are the major probelms wiht the official story.

1. There is no official reports or actual evidence to support the official story.

2. No actual photos or videos of Flight 77 hitting the Pentagon.

3. No official reports matching any of the parts found to any of the 9/11 planes.

BASICALLY THE BIGGEST EVIDENCE AGAINST THE OFFICIAL STORY IS THE LACK OF EVIDENCE THAT SUPPORTS IT.

DOUBLE POST

[edit on 28-7-2008 by ULTIMA1]