Rare Footage -- Flight 93 Shootdown Award

reply to post by IvanZana


Um, that is a cute animation of a plane burying itself in the ground.

Now if this were swamp land -- it would make sense.

If anyone with any experience with plane crashes is around, could they explain to me, how a plane, which is mostly lightweight aluminum, crumples when crash-tested against a brick wall, wouldn't pretty much do the same when hitting the earth?

The only really hard parts are the engines.

There would be a lot of debris, mostly on the surface. The engines would be nearby -- which they weren't.

I'm only speculating. The only thing I know for sure is that BushCo is a war-mongering bunch of thieves, and that the WTC was brought down by demolition. Everything else is speculation based upon the very slight bit of data the government released that wasn't through a pin hole camera.

[edit on 10-7-2008 by VitriolAndAngst]

reply to post by IvanZana





There were wagames over pennsylvania.

No plane crashed in Shanksville.

Wow the disinfo is on today...... burry the no plane in shanksville crater threads.........

June 8th- 9th, 2001
"Operation Amber Sky", Dayton International Airport, Ohio.
"Realistic" full-scale mock exercise, including a simulation of "a disaster at the airport".
The exercise was on runway 6R* near the Amateur Trapshoot Association grounds.

8)
June 22-23, 2001
The US GOV organised their biggest bio terror scenario so far: DARK WINTER.

9)
June 1-4, 2001
"Terrorist" exercise AMALGAM Virgo 01 at the Tyndall Air Force Base, Fla.

10)
August 6th-10th
Disastermeeting.com: International Conference on Disaster Management

11)
September 8th, 2001
Erie County/Buffalo Niagara airport "terror drill"
"Full-scale terrorist exercise", more than 350 participants were involved in this exercise that simulated an aircraft landing with a terrorist on board and the threat of an explosive device on a plane.

12)
September 1-14,2001
Exercise Ellipse Alpha, which took place in an undisclosed location
(Sequel from 1998 and 1999 drills, responding to a domestic radiological Weapon of Mass Destruction.

13)
September 10th, 2001
"Anti-terror meeting" at Murtha Johnstown Airport, Westmore County/Shanksville area, incl.
Sergeant Koshute (LEPC), plus Michael Hoover, Ron Springer, Ralph Saylor, Bernie McCreadie, June Kania, Mike Huss, Vikki King, Georgia Lehman and Leah Spangler.

14)
Sep11th, 2001
Besides the already well-documented four distractive "wargames" on that morning, we're currently also count at least 5(!) terror-exercises and another emergency drill.
We can assume, that like with the purpose of "wargames", there had been more "emergency exercises" throughout the country, to confuse from the most important drills.

www.sirdave.com...


[edit on 10-7-2008 by IvanZana]

reply to post by VitriolAndAngst


The ground at Shanksville was very soft. It had been a quarry or something of the sort, and was filled in. That's why the plane penetrated so easily.

reply to post by VitriolAndAngst

and then finding debris like the engine 8 miles away.... doesn't make sense.

Source please?

Here is a map that depicts the debris pattern.
Flight 93 was traveling south when it crashed, please provide links and statements of anyone finding debris on the North Side of the impact crater.

reply to post by Zaphod58


I understand about the time it take to arm a plane. I was making reference to the plane that was already flying; the one you referenced as flying a civilian to New York.

Yes, there would have been multiple phantom blips on the fighter's radar from the training exercises that were going on (terrorist must have had extensive knowledge of the military's training schedules ... or ti was just complete and utter "dumb luck" that they planned these attacks on this day), thus making the actual plane extremely hard to find amongst the phantom aircraft ... but, that wouldn't have changed the fact that I would have scrambled it ... armed or not.

wow... the truthers in here are getting really good at this game...
the debunkers here are starting to sound like angry children,
attacking any way that they can, using no logic whatsoever..

the MSM Propaganda is alive and well in the blog forums, and its so transparent;
the way debunkers attempt to de-rail and debunk is really sad.

I guess i`m only acting as an observer and score keeper...
I know being a truther myself, My opinions rather one sided, but
still,

SCORE:
truthers =100
debunkers = 0

keep up the good work people
never be afraid to spread the truth...

reply to post by IvanZana


>> I Agree with Ivan Zana that the "crash site" was probably rigged. I also agree that it is a common tactic -- at least with the Bush family, to put someone out their claiming something incredible that is then easily disproved. This burns the press and allows people to ridicule ANY theories. I always remember the claims of a man who said he witnessed (Pappy) Bush in meetings with the Iranians in France after Iran/Contra. Turns out that they found credit card receipts showing he was in the states at the time. The press got burned and never followed up. They could have pointed out that the man was a long-time Bush family friend -- like they failed to mention about the man who shot Reagan, and was released by urging of the Bush family last year (didn't hear about that on the news, he?).

I'm not sure I agree that there was not UA 93 involved. I've read some theories about people being switched off planes and then empty ones and such. But we need to tread carefully on any claims. This guy "not denying it" might let the story heat up, and then show records that prove he was elsewhere. Thus, another BURN JOB. Of course, flight records can be faked -- but it just makes everyone look like fools.

Always remember, however, that we wouldn't need to speculate if this government were more transparent. And for that reason alone they should be kicked out.

>> Your timeline is good Ivan -- but there is a lot more to fill in. The problem with trying to "say what happened" is that we have to depend upon those I think who were involved for the information. If we guess wrong -- it makes people look foolish. The herd doesn't want to believe the Government does these sorts of things -- while ignoring all the incidents in the past that were in fact, false flags.

reply to post by tyranny22


First of all, there wouldn't have been any "phantom blips" on the fighter radar. The only places that would have had phantom blips would have been ground stations, that had computers tied into them to create the blips.

Second, even if he wanted to look for flight 77, he didn't know the right area to do it in. When ATC lost the track on their radar screens they kept looking WEST for flight 77. It wouldn't have done any good to send him to look for it because he would have been in the wrong place.

Third, at the time the decision was made that it was more important to get the Director to New York, since no one knew where flight 77 was, or where it was going until it was too late.

[edit on 7/10/2008 by Zaphod58]

can't comment on most of the thread but DC10 can fly upside down, a 707 can barrel roll and once at an edwards air force base airshow they had a c17 doing barrel rolls, so I believe that 757 or 767 could fly upside down too.

If the plane was exploded mid air wouldn't people see a huge fire tailing debis field fluttering down to the earth. would there be even more wreckage. so the plane buried or penetrated into the ground. so what get a bulldozer and start digging parts out but they haven't recovered much of a plane. just a few parts that could have been taken to the crash site. maybe it was something else besides an airplane that hit the ground near shanksville.

Planes can disintergrate upon impact but there should have been much more wreckage to dig up even if it was 200 tons of metal powder. they should have found more. bet chemical detectors would be able to find cubanol or some other type of high explosive near the crash site.

Originally posted by Zaphod58
Do you know how long it takes to arm a fighter from a cold start? By the time you break out weapons, get them to the planes, get them up, get the planes ready to go, you could be looking at over 2 hours for a full load out. Even if you get the first ones airborne quicker than that, by the time they could have launched, gotten to the area, and started looking for the planes, it was all over.

And it was hardly 98% of our fighters participating in the exercises. Most of the exercises that day were command post exercises, meaning no actual aircraft were involved and flying. The ones that WERE flying still would have been looking at a pretty good bit of time to get ready to get airborne. They would have had to have been fueled, armed, and then need almost an hour to align navigation systems with engines running.

Dude,
having been in the air force and also having a brain, I am aware that the alert planes are already fully loaded or they weould have no business being "alert" birds.

reply to post by Zaphod58


Right. So where is all the debris recovered?
In the Everglades, they recovered about half of an Air Tran plane that went straight into the muck.

But still. This is yet another "one in a million" event that explains what we see. I haven't done all the research, but I'm sure everyone here has seen hundreds of plane crash photos and NONE of them look this clean, like a bulldozer spent 5 minutes. The place would be littered -- the plane would crumple as it hits ground or water -- and that would cause the kinetic energy to splash a good bit around, maybe a football field at least -- and the plane in no way would get 100% swallowed by the ground.

Crap, how much "new physics" are we supposed to swallow here? Kerosene somehow weakens steel beams that melt at least 500 degrees hotter (not even bothering with the concept that theoretical TEMPERATURE of kerosene is not nearly enough HEAT). And those joists both weaken, causing a pancake collapse and and the same time are strong enough to bring down the core.

But don't notice the photos of people looking out of holes ten feet away from this horrendous inferno -- or that glass didn't melt near the joists -- while of course the insulation was stripped off from the blast. Don't notice the "yellow-hot" molten steel spewing out and found a week later -- indicating that Thermate was used. Don't notice ten stories crumble in mid-air due apparently, to strong winds.

Don't notice the drills going on at the same time. Or the evidence on Bush in building 7. Or how convenient it was for his war plans which were written before -- along with the Patriot Act. Don't notice that only people opposing the war on Al Qaeda got Anthrax, that it came from a government lab, and nobody was caught.

Don't notice that the Special Forces were stopped from getting OBL, but the hired thugs let him go at Tora Bora.

Don't notice the WTC investigation was hindered at every step, and that the OBL family was flown away on the 12th.

Don't notice the gas prices and the thirty year friendship with Sultans and big oil.

Nope, it is all one big coincidence. Bad luck that helped BushCo a whole lot.

>> That is a short list. I'm just trying to put the UA 93 in perspective. If Al Capone had a house guest who happened to be an agent investigating him, who died with a knife in his back and the claim was that he fell on it -- wouldn't you want to investigate such a coincidence?

reply to post by network dude


And are you aware of just HOW MANY alert birds there were on 9/11? For the ENTIRE UNITED STATES? Fourteen to twenty one. On the East Coast, where they could have done any good at all, there were 4-6. SEVEN Air Force bases had between 2 and 4 fighters armed and on alert to launch. And they were spread throughout the entire country.

[edit on 7/10/2008 by Zaphod58]

reply to post by network dude


Thanks for this post.

I am nowhere near a military expert. But my dad used to train pilots on aircraft carriers. 15 minutes or you were a slacker. That was in the days of prop engines and no GPS.

If it takes 2 hours to get a jet ready -- wow. We really aren't safe. And I'd wonder about those people who flew off their flight path in restricted air space who would get escorts inside of 15 minutes.

Still, maybe from a cold start. But calibrating navigation to the engines? Does a turn-by-turn GPS require a warm up? Why is the military so far behind Garvin and Palm Pilot?

The fact that Cheney had EVERYONE involved in drills that day is a criminal offense. Really. People point to this -- which used to be a secret until forced into the light -- as if it is the reason we didn't scramble jets (which means they are ready to fly). But what they don't say is; "In what fantasy world is it a good idea to have your entire defense wing engaged in an exercise?" People should have lost their jobs for incompetence right then and there.

But they didn't. Because 9/11 happened when a drill was designed to look like the same thing. And the cameras on WTC also decided to quit working that day.

Oh, and Guilliani got a campaign donation of $100,000 to locate his emergency headquarters in WTC 7.

did cheney give authorisation to shoot down any of planes that day.
if not ,and if it was shot down, wouldnt that be an illegal act?
if someone disobeyed protocol and odered the plane shot down, then they will never be able to admit it anyway or else they would be in a hell of a lot of trouble - regardless of whether it was the right thing to do or not.
just a thought.

How on earth did Norad loose sight on radar of a jumbo jet when they can track a baseball sized object anywhere in our skys. Theres no way, or norad wouldn't be norad.

Also no scrambling of aircraft. we scrambled aircraft some 30 times in the year before for much smaller things.

reply to post by VitriolAndAngst


The Alert fighters were on alert 15, and had their INS systems aligned every 24-48 hours, so they were airborne within 15 minutes. I said that from a COLD START you were looking at up to 2 hours. That meant that every fighter EXCEPT the 14-21 that were already on alert that day. We went from having dozens of fighters armed and ready to launch, to a maximum of 21 on that day.

reply to post by BASSPLYR


A 757 isn't a jumbo jet, but that's another story.

NORAD radars are mostly FAA radars. The military radars that NORAD uses are along the coastlines looking OUT of the US. NORAD ties into FAA ATC radars for internal coverage. There are some military radars internally but mostly for air traffic control purposes. The military was more concerned with looking for waves of bombers and missiles coming into the US than tracking planes already inside the US.

reply to post by Zaphod58


It's very interesting that you say there would be no phantom blips on the fighter's radar because I've heard this used many, many times when people were trying to dismissed how much scrambled fighter would have been of use on 9/11.

I'll try to dig up were these discussions were going on and what and who exactly were making the claims. In the end it was argued that it didn't matter how many fighters they had in the air (with-in distance) because not a single one could have distinguished the hi-jacked aircraft from a "phantom aircraft" that was only part of a training exercise.

The thread was killed because of some official report that stated this.

Off to find it.

Fighter radar can have phantom blips put on it, but they are put on generally by AWACS or something else using a datalink. If the datalink isn't active, then the radar would use "real" targets. On that day the ONLY fighters that would have had phantom blips on them would be in an exercise. You wouldn't be able to set ALL fighter radars to show false returns.

reply to post by Zaphod58


So of course, they were ready and able to shoot down flight 93 -- which they did. And the only question is if it was before or after Mr. Cheney learned that the plane had been taken over from the hijackers.

A few reports out there of two people who saw F-16s. Now, the people who DIDN'T see them, of course does not prove they were there. You have to be pretty alert to catch such a fast object.

Then there are the claims of the flight data recorder missing the last few minutes;
www.worldnetdaily.com...

Sorry if that isn't the best link. But I do remember them claiming that. So I checked up on flight data recorders and it seems that the record from Outside to In. Meaning, the last part of the tape is the most protected. If you miss the last bits on the record -- you would have destroyed the first bits.

The government is never going to release all the information so -- which is coincidentally my timeline for believing what they have to say.