Overthrowing the United States Government

Originally posted by ArcAngel
If ya don't like our country, try China or Cuba, if they'll have you.

This country has it's issues, but it is still "MY" country and I love it. And it is still the BEST in the world.

Leave.. no one is forcing you to stay.. that's what's great about my country ..

So go, and make this an even greater country and democracy.

Sorry ArcAngel many are forced to stay. They are like the Soviets of the 60s and 70s. They are captives to the laws of America that proclaim if you owe the government a certain amount of money you can't get a passport.

One specific law is the Child Support Enforcement act. Just being conservative The State Department denies, or would deny, up to two million Americans the right to leave this country if they applied for a passport.

If you want more accuracy, determine how many people owe back child support. Guess what?

Those people aren't leaving America! And those numbers are only getting larger.

reply to post by garyo1954


And of course, there is also this fact to consider, here in the "land of the free." We are "free" to keep more people in prison than any other nation on the planet, including Communist China with their enormous population.

I think the problem with something like this is people are generally apathetic. As long as they have an easy job and a lawn to cut most people they don't want to rock the boat. You need some sort of leader like Ron Paul or Martin Luther King to have a large following and to make real change.

There doesn't seem to be any real way to pull the rug out from under the government to institute another one, sure there is impeachment but even that is dependent on good people making tough decisions. I still don't understand why Bill Clinton got impeached for messing around with a women and Bush is doing so much far worse and still haven't been impeached.

If there were a good clever way to take back the country I think Ron Paul would have exploited it but even his great movement is simply making gatherings and peaceful protests.

I really think the best way to take the country back would have to be for everyone to not use it's currency, but good luck on that one. Most people simply don't care enough about anything or anyone to do anything about it.

reply to post by hinky


As someone who worked as a public servant for a few years, and now as a PhD student in Public Administration, I'm sorry but you need public servants at whatever the size of government is. Even in the smallest of governments, carrying out policy requires career professionals - politicians do not have the expertise to IMPLEMENT policy (they are policy MAKERS, not implementors). If they did they would have no incentive to not corrupt the process by making it political, because they have short term goals and have no incentive to ensure policy implementation looks out for everyone long term.

Doing otherwise causes even more bloat and ineffiency than we already have. And no, the answer isnt privitizing everything - even if you could, you still need career public servants to monitor the contracts and plan contingencies. Public servants get paid crap - if you think thats the source of waste you need to learn the facts. I could get paid 3x what I used to get paid by moving to the private sector.

ATS users are so quick to call for riots and revolution, when doing such would only make things worse. Here is a newsflash for those dreaming of revolution: there will ****NEVER**** be a government that makes everyone happy, and there will ****NEVER**** be a government where someone somewhere doesn't whine about something. It is the nature of government. Government by its very nature is flawed, it will always be so. You can create a revolution every 6 months, and it won't change anything .

reply to post by runetang


"CIVIL WAR" ?? Well I for one am not for civil war - for a long list of reasons. But you are very right about the split military if it came to that. I think something like that has already happened on the waters near Iraq - one Admiral retired. Mmost people that have read some of the emails from our navy personel have come to the conclusion that he would go along with Washingtons orders. The Admiral denied this.

Here are some ideas (in no particular order) that I have for straightening out our broking government:

I would suggest pushing out the politians that voted for self interest reasons, such as thier personal investments in the Iraq war. There are records of thier votes. And records of thier investments.

Also make lobbying illegal - who insn't for that. This is such a blantant thing our government allows. What a joke.

Set up some kind of public voting system that is done over the internet - This is such an obvious thing to do. We should have a complete majority say so, especially concerning the constitiution.

The "Baby Boomers" are now retiring and have some time and funds to persue some issues with our government. Baby Boomers ban together and try to pressure our government on many issues. They are a powerful group.

Make plans for rallys in Washington. Puplicly protest your concerns. Yell at the officials coming and going. The may act like they don't hear anything - but believe me they do. Have a rotating shifts for months - on a volunteer bases.

Ask question of our government by representation - private citizens panel. Example: Where is the money from the Iraqy oil that was suppose to pay for the war? Where is it? What exactly is Exxon and Texico doing in Iraq? We want to see the contracts so we know we are going to get our war paid for.

Have a varity forms that anyone can download on thier computer / print and sign. Then send it via snail mail to our congressmen. Worthless asses that they are.

Well there are some ideas. Like I said "CIVIL WAR" is not really a good idea at this point. Out of the question - NOT. But we as American have to alot tools to use before we sacrafice more lives and also end up in one of those prison camps that Bush and Cheney have built across America. By the way there are hundreds and barbwire in all those camps faces toward the inside. Also there are many foreign troops here on our soil right now. They are here under orders of our government and NATO - why are they here at all? So you see we must use other means to beat down the worthless politicians that have it coming.

Keep haning in there.

Originally posted by Mabus
If ppl wont go about changing it a legit, peaceful way, then they wont go about changing it a violent way.

Since when is peaceful change the only legit change? Violence has brought, and could bring great change in our world for the better. The American Revolution was a war. I am sure if they asked the King nicely(pretty please with a cherry on top) to give them their independence he would have given it to them. /sarc

I am not advocating violence, but people seem to have been brainwashed to thinking the only way to solve these issues is with nonviolence. Nonviolence does not work against powers that hold no value for your life. The NWO would be thrilled that all of the dissidents died from starvation because of a hunger strike.

I am not for storming Washington, or rioting in the streets(yet), but there is a breaking point. I hope we do not see it soon. It is unlikely now; who will round us all up? The military is full of good people who will stick to their principles and to their original oath of service.

I, _____, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God.

Please note that the part about supporting and defending the constitution against all enemies foreign and domestic is before the part about obeying the President.
We have many good people in the military that will not stand for things like rounding up citizens to camps, or shooting people over food. We are not all mindless zombies.

I honestly dislike the government of the United States. I think every politician is a vile piece of scum, including the president. Obama and McCain, whoever wins will also f things up even more.

So, honestly, maybe the government Deserves to be overthrown.

I mean, we do have plenty of freedoms but with the freedoms we have, there are risks. Such as the Patriot Act, we have the freedom to say what we want, however, thanks to the Act, the government can now take our information and take away our computers and whatnot without us being able to fight them or fight for our freedom.

So yeah we are still the most free country in the world but of course there are plenty of loopholes.

Violence is needed sometimes and I feel killing is a natural and often necessary thing in life. ( for example: we kill plants and animals to eat )

I don't know how we could deal with the government in a peaceful way.
I was thinking what if we all gathered together and just sat down on the streets but then the cops would come and trample us, use tear gas and shoot rubber bullets at us.

I say with this situation you gotta fight fire with fire. Right now the American citizens are getting pwnd (owned) by the US government and nothing is being done about it. If we fight back, then it will be us against them. In my mind if I am going down I'm taking as many as I can with me.

Remember when Rome burned?

just a thought....

Originally posted by ALightinDarkness
reply to post by hinky

 

Doing otherwise causes even more bloat and ineffiency than we already have. And no, the answer isnt privitizing everything - even if you could, you still need career public servants to monitor the contracts and plan contingencies.

No, you don't. You need as little federal government as possible. Only an elected assembly that considers security issues and constitutes a defensive military force. Full stop. Everything else should be jettisoned flat out.

Here is a newsflash for those dreaming of revolution: there will ****NEVER**** be a government that makes everyone happy,

That's why there should be as little of it as possible.

www.stimulator.tv
watch the video at this web sit its relavent to this discussion

Well, You did it now. They have already searched and know where you live, and all the other details they think is use full.

Good luck,


C ya...........well maybe

I would bet that a very large percent of people who are so anxiously calling for a fight and violence live very boring, mundane lives. They can find no stimulus day to day, so they day dream of something happening where they could play rambo.

Sorry folks, but your desire to turn my backyard into your personal rambo movie isn't going to go over well. Couching it in terms of false patriotism and false whines about a government which has so many freedoms your allowed to post this sort of drivel doesn't help your cause. Just admit it: you want war for war's sake, because you think its going to be like a movie and you want to play Rambo.

Originally posted by ALightinDarkness
Just admit it: you want war for war's sake, because you think its going to be like a movie and you want to play Rambo.

That is the single worst bit of psychological profiling I have ever seen.

It is also an abusive lie.

Originally posted by Pellevoisin
No, you don't. You need as little federal government as possible. Only an elected assembly that considers security issues and constitutes a defensive military force. Full stop. Everything else should be jettisoned flat out.

Yes, you do. I am a libertarian and I want as small of a government as humanely possible. However, that includes things beyond military. It includes infrastructure. That infrastructure (the court system, for example) requires career professionals to administrate. At the local government level, it includes even more infrastructure. Your water system and road system isn't going to build itself. Congress itself has to have professional staff.

Minimum government? Yes. But that minimum government includes the provision of public goods, for which the private sector cannot or will not provide because of free rider problems. And that goes beyond military.

Originally posted by Pellevoisin
It is also an abusive lie.

The truth often hurts to those who are exposed to. I understand.

Thank goodness your desire to play Rambo won't ever become reality.

Originally posted by ALightinDarkness

Originally posted by Pellevoisin
No, you don't. You need as little federal government as possible. Only an elected assembly that considers security issues and constitutes a defensive military force. Full stop. Everything else should be jettisoned flat out.

Yes, you do. I am a libertarian and I want as small of a government as humanely possible. However, that includes things beyond military. It includes infrastructure. That infrastructure (the court system, for example) requires career professionals to administrate. At the local government level, it includes even more infrastructure. Your water system and road system isn't going to build itself. Congress itself has to have professional staff.

Nyet. Your self-justification of your career path is wrong in se. People want roads. People can build roads. Companies need railways? Companies can build railways. Local communities can take care of their local areas. There is no need to buy into all this bureaucracy that self-replicates like a virus. Nor is there any need to buy into any element of the status quo simply because one cannot envision something else.

Originally posted by ALightinDarkness

Originally posted by Pellevoisin
It is also an abusive lie.

The truth often hurts to those who are exposed to. I understand.

Thank goodness your desire to play Rambo won't ever become reality.

You have demonstrated your willingness to attribute motives to others without any evidence of substance: that is fairly compelling evidence in itself that a mind like yours is a danger waiting to become a disaster in a bureaucratic setting.

[edit on 5/7/08 by Pellevoisin]

I would love to see our country get rebuilt from ground zero.Never going to happen.The chain reaction wont ever leave first plate.

reply to post by alienstar


I'd be happy to see Ground Zero get rebuilt. Coincidentally, they're talking work into 2012 now.

Originally posted by Pellevoisin
Nyet. Your self-justification of your career path is wrong in se. People want roads. People can build roads. Companies need railways? Companies can build railways. Local communities can take care of their local areas. There is no need to buy into all this bureaucracy that self-replicates like a virus. Nor is there any need to buy into any element of the status quo simply because one cannot envision something else.

Wrong again, as usual. I suggest you pull out your high school political science text book - or actually, just google at this point - and read up on the concept of public goods. Most infrastructure is a public good, and if left to their own devices no one will build a public good.

You might get a company willing to build a private road, but you won't get to use it. I'm sure a private stretch of road protected by guards would help you get to work. Local communities take care of their own areas by providing infrastructure.

Really, you should do your research before slamming things you don't understand. By the way, my "career choice" makes a ton of money in the research sector or private sector - but then again, I wouldn't expect someone embracing so much ignorance to understand what public administration actually means.

[edit on 5-7-2008 by ALightinDarkness]