Cops pay 3 a.m. visit to tell man his door is unlocked

reply to post by defcon5


I think the age is 12.




I do think the US has the same types of laws for freemen on the land. But I will have to check up on that information.



[edit on 6-22-2008 by CPYKOmega]

Originally posted by CPYKOmega
I think the age is 12.

Could be, most places in the US you have to be 13 or older to be left unattended.

Originally posted by CPYKOmega
I do think the US has the same types of laws for freemen on the land. But I will have to check up on that information.

Trespass laws are going to vary some from state to state in the US, but I don’t believe that simple trespass is ever considered a felony. In some states you can shoot someone if they are in the process of committing a felony. So if someone broke into your house while its occupied, in a couple of states you can now shoot them. Most places though you still have to be in immediate fear of your life with no route of escape to use lethal force.

In every state that I know of one cannot use deadly force to protect property. There has to be a threat to personal safety or life (though breaking into a house qualifies as it is reasonable to fear for ones life in those situations).

Of course confronting a tresspasser could lead one to fear for their life. It really depends on the individual state with regard to whether they prosecute the homeowner. Around here criminals get shot pretty frequently, the only time I recall it being an issue was when some guy shot a teenager that had broken into his car on the driveway, the guy did not really have a good story apparently.

And once the cops woke the kids up they KNEW they the parents were sleeping upstairs, they knew the kids were not left unattended.

[edit on 22-6-2008 by Sonya610]

Originally posted by defcon5

So if someone broke into your house while its occupied, in a couple of states you can now shoot them.

Thank you for proving my point regarding this thread. Police broke into this mans house and you just agreed with me on the fact that you can legally shoot them.

Originally posted by CPYKOmega
Thank you for proving my point regarding this thread. Police broke into this mans house and you just agreed with me on the fact that you can legally shoot them.

You can shoot them as long as you reasonably believe they are a threat to you and your family. Once they have been identified as cops (or maybe your kids friend sneaking in for a late night visit) and they are no longer preceived as a threat to your life you can't shoot them.

reply to post by Sonya610


Some states now allow the castle law:

Castle Doctrine is an American legal concept derived from English Common Law, which designates one's place of residence (or, in some states, any place legally occupied, such as one's car or place of work) as a place in which one enjoys protection from illegal trespassing and violent attack. It then goes on to give a person the legal right to use deadly force to defend that place (his/her "castle"), and/or any other innocent persons legally inside it, from violent attack or an intrusion which may lead to violent attack. In a legal context, therefore, use of deadly force which actually results in death may be defended as justifiable homicide under the Castle Doctrine.
Castle Doctrines are legislated by state, and not all states in the US have a Castle Doctrine.

Each state differs with respect to the specific instances in which the Castle Doctrine can be invoked, and what degree of retreat or non-deadly resistance (if any) is required before deadly force can be used.
In general, one (sometimes more) of a variety of conditions must be met before a person can legally use the Castle Doctrine:
An intruder must be making (or have made) an attempt to forcibly enter a premises uninvited
The intruder must be acting illegally -- e.g. the Castle Doctrine does not give the right to shoot officers of the law acting in the course of their legal duties
The occupant(s) of the home must reasonably believe that the intruder intends to inflict serious bodily harm, or death, upon an occupant of the home
The occupant(s) of the home must reasonably believe that the intruder intends to commit some other felony, such as arson or burglary
The occupant(s) of the home must not have provoked or instigated an intrusion, or provoked or instigated an intruder to threaten or use deadly force
In all cases, the occupant(s) of the home must be there legally, must not be fugitives from the law, must not be using the Castle Doctrine to aid or abet another person in being a fugitive from the law, and must not use deadly force upon an officer of the law or an officer of the peace while they are performing or attempting to perform their legal duties.

Duty-to-retreat
Some states have a duty-to-retreat clause, which expressly imposes an obligation upon the home's occupants to retreat as far as possible and verbally announce their intent to use deadly force, before they can be legally justified in doing so to defend themselves.
For states that do not require the announcement to be "verbal", other indicators may be used. These are typically not defined by statute, and would be left to the court's interpretation, but may include things such as laser sights and warning shots.

As to the bit about the kids being awake, the police stated that they found the excuse that their parent had slept through them pounding on the door, and ringing the doorbell “suspicious”. Read the second article.

I am getting tired of arguing about this, the officers were in the bounds of the law to do what they did. Even the police department stated that they were, not that they were investigating any misconduct. The guy can try and sue them over this, if he can find an attorney that will take the case, but 99% chance he is going to lose it. Of course he has to try and bring this up to the media right away, he smells a chance to try and sue the state for a lot of money.

Originally posted by CPYKOmega
Thank you for proving my point regarding this thread. Police broke into this mans house and you just agreed with me on the fact that you can legally shoot them.

Nope, your still wrong, because you don’t know the castle law:

In all cases, the occupant(s) of the home must be there legally, must not be fugitives from the law, must not be using the Castle Doctrine to aid or abet another person in being a fugitive from the law, and must not use deadly force upon an officer of the law or an officer of the peace while they are performing or attempting to perform their legal duties.

Also this law does not exist in all states.
Besides the fact that the police did not “break into” the house.

[edit on 6/22/2008 by defcon5]

Yes if a person realizes the intruders are police it applies. A couple of years ago the cops raided the wrong house and a 92 year old woman fired a shot at them, she was gunned down. The cops are now being prosecuted (or some have already been convicted, don't recall).

The fact that she shot at police officers (that she thought were home intruders, they had broken down her door) means they did not put the blame on her. Had she survived it is very unlikely she would have faced any charges. If the home owner does not REALIZE they are cops it makes a difference.

Nixons 'No Knock Search" must be repealed. Its a stupid law and has no basis in the constitution. Very seldom does the PTB actualy have a real need. Destroying evidence is the reason for its use, but most times the cops already have more than enough to prosecute before a search. It puts LEOS at risk as well as the citizens that often become victims of mistakes. Its a bad precedent and should be repealed.

Zindo

Originally posted by defcon5

Originally posted by ironman433
somebody has been jumped and dragged in the house ??????? and then what ? put the victims children to sleep . i thank you god for not letting this guys mission in life to be a cop .

My read on the way it was explained in the video was that the cops basically saw bodies laying on the floor, there is no way to tell if they were asleep or not from outside the house, but they were obviously not responding


not many people are sitting up at 3am . normally they ARE laying down when they are sleeping at 3am

Originally posted by ironman433
you need to lay off the comic books and try to remember that TV and movies are not real.

All you folks that are saying it was wrong for them to enter are the ones going off of TV, I showed the actual law already.
you may have shown the law but you did not prove it in any way .

Originally posted by ironman433
i like what lone gunman said earlier , and that was turn on the overheads and hit the siren

Police do not use the siren in a neighborhood at 03:00 am, and LG should know that if he is a firefighter. Ambulances even shut off their siren when entering a neighborhood.


in this case it would have been the proper thing to do considering what you said . possibly jumped and dragged in the house .

Originally posted by ironman433
i grew up in the same house for 25yrs and we never even locked the house up when we went on vacations and never had anything ever come up missing . heck i dont recall ever seeing a key for that door either . god must have been looking over us to never have been killed or raped in all of those years .

Or maybe you did not live in a high crime area.


and show us the fbi crime stats of that area then so we can determine if it was a real high crime area .

Originally posted by ironman433
i have to reply to this one too . the tv is on and nobody answers the door at 3am in the morning .

You also leave you garage open, the keys in the car, and the door ajar? Guess its not the same situation then, is it?

ive done the exact same thing he did several times and never been jumped and dragged in the house .

also as for the age of the kids what do you think happens every night of the week when a parent puts their child to bed ? do you think that the kids sleep in bed with them because the says that they have to be in your presence ?
come back to reality kid , the police have no right to come on to your property unless there is or was a crime being committed . re-read the fourth amendment and it will lay it all out very clear for you . to much TV for you junior i guess we will have to take it away from you for a month or two .

[edit on 22-6-2008 by ironman433]

[edit on 22-6-2008 by ironman433]

Originally posted by ironman433
not many people are sitting up at 3am . normally they ARE laying down when they are sleeping at 3am.

You normally let your kids sleep on the floor?

Originally posted by ironman433
you may have shown the law but you did not prove it in any way .

It agrees with the assessment of the police department and the fact that the officers are not under investigation, suspension, or being reprimanded. They had reasonable suspicion to enter the residence as an exigent circumstance, but so far all you guys can offer as a argument to that is…. “No its not…”

Originally posted by ironman433
in this case it would have been the proper thing to do considering what you said . possibly jumped and dragged in the house .

No, its proper for a police officer not to get the neighbors involved in a possible situation that is none of their business. Their job is after all to keep the peace, not disturb it at 0300 am.

Originally posted by ironman433
and show us the fbi crime stats of that area then so we can determine if it was a real high crime area .

I don’t need to, learn to read, they were canvassing the area because of a rash of crimes.

Originally posted by ironman433
ive done the exact same thing he did several times and never been jumped and dragged in the house .

Wow, what an ignorant statement that is…
So your saying that because you have done something similarly stupid, that in every instance that there has never been a person who has been attacked while entering their home at night, or that those are not signs that maybe some type of crime has occurred?

Maybe you missed this quote from a similar crime that happened in the local area to where this was:

Police say many crimes originate with open garage doors. In May, a 52-year-old Burnsville man was stabbed and left to die in his burning town house after two assailants entered his home at 4:30 a.m. by way of an open garage door.

Originally posted by ironman433
also as for the age of the kids what do you think happens every night of the week when a parent puts their child to bed ? do you think that the kids sleep in bed with them because the says that they have to be in your presence ?

No, but I would expect a parent to provide a safe environment for a child to sleep in, including locking the doors and responding to the police ringing the doorbell.

Originally posted by ironman433
come back to reality kid

Actually I am an adult, but its becoming very obvious tonight that school is out for the summer and I am becoming a minority on this site.

Originally posted by ironman433the police have no right to come on to your property unless there is or was a crime being committed . re-read the fourth amendment and it will lay it all out very clear for you .

It certainly does, it says that if there is probable cause that a place may be searched:

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

To a reasonable person, which there are apparently becoming fewer of on this site, this case fits well within the bounds of providing probable cause.

Originally posted by MikeboydUS
Wow?!

Has anyone on here been a cop or is a cop, worked in law enforcement etc. ?

I have.

The police were justified. There is a concept called "Probable Cause".
They found the garage door open, keys in the vehicle, and tried knocking and received no response.

If I had been there I would of done the same thing. I have had comparable situations involving federal property and commercial property. I would of been worried a crime was in progress and someone's life could be danger.

So I cannot believe all of the Hate here against the officers. I know there are some cops, federal agents and military police around the country that do really stupid things at times, but that is not everyone. There are still good people in law enforcement.







[edit on 21/6/08 by MikeboydUS]

Uh, it was 3 am. How many people answer their door at 3 am?

An open garage and unlocked door does not equal PC.

reply to post by defcon5

well spoken by a sheeple sir . i refuse to give up my 4th amendment rights because someone like you can dream up some way for them to be taken away . the downfall of our freedoms are because of people brainwashed like you into believing it's o.k. for the police to enter your home on some dreamed up fabricated reason to do so .
since you believe so whole heartedly in this i hope you will share the recording of you talking to your local police department allowing them to enter your house whenever they feel that they know better what serves you and your family .
i for one will deal with them in a way that is set forth by my constitutional rights .

I would be grateful if my garage was open, my keys were in my truck and I was asleep to be awoken and warned by the cops. I would much rather deal with some pigs than get my car stolen and my wife hurt.

I for one would never be that dumb as to leave my car and front door unlocked (I live in Tucson, AZ, meth/immigrant central). I also don't keep anything in my house that a cop could use against me.

So unless the cop is named ZED, I'll say thanks and ask them to leave. If his name is ZED, I'll shoot him.

you should be lucky that those cops are doing there jobs. that really was a very good eye opener that u should lock your doors at night and honestly i would much rather seee a police officer in my house telling me that my door was unlocked.. then seeing someone in a ski mask demanding my safe.. thats just my opinion

reply to post by Mad_Hatter



Shooting unidentified people in any environment is not very smart. Get a flashlight, and make sure you know who you are shooting. One day, with your blind shooting attitude, you may kill an innocent person. Maybe your mom.

Cops are supposed ot follow the laws just like anyone else. To enter a home with no probable cause, no warrant is an unlawful entry. If a cop was shot in this instance it would not and should not be anyones fault but the cops.

I'm sure if that cop forgot to lock his door and I just popped by to leave a note on his table I'd be in jail if not dead.

reply to post by SystemiK


In reading the story, it appears this is a small town. Lakeville, Population ~54000.

This is what the officers saw:

The officers told Molde his garage door was open, the TV was on, the keys to his truck were left in the ignition and the door to his house was ajar.

Kids under 7 were having a sleep over and no parent was around when the officer comes to the door. Id put this on the " I hope everything is OK " by the officer.

I dont know, but if my regular duty officer normally sees my door shut and knows that day after day, and he comes by and sees something out of the norm, I might be glad he did come by.

My 2 ¢

Peace


[edit on 22-6-2008 by HIFIGUY]

I wanna know what would happen to me if I was to check a cops house ot see if his door was locked and if not walk on in and let him know. I'd say I would be jailed for an unlawful entry. trespassing, B&E..Something like that. I'd say just rattling door knobs would be enough to get their attention.

One can't say "Well..They are cops" because they are entering a home with no warrant and no probable cause that a crime is being committed.

Anyone saying that it is a good idea to allow such activities is allowing ones rights to be ignored. Let them all fall like dominos...as for me I think I would be exercising my 2nd amendment rights and the man would be held at gunpoint untill other law was called and charges were pressed.

You can minamalize it all you want and say well..It's a cop and not a bad guy but once that officer enters he has become the bad guy. If you don't think it's true try it yourself. Then tell the law that you are only trying to protect people by ch3e4cking doors. Let me know when visiting day is. I make a mean file in the cake

reply to post by slackerwire


Please go backand read the whole story, it was more than an open garage or unlocked door. There were keys in the ignition of the vehicle in the garage, the door was ajar, they tried knocking and ringing, children were laying in the floor, and apparently crime in the area had increased.

I would almost guarantee that if this went before a court, the judge would rule that the officers were right. Enough reasonable suspicion or probable cause was established.

Honestly its almost silly that this debate has gone on this long. Ultimately it would be up to the courts to decide who was right and wrong. We could argue all day about details but only a real case brought before a real court would really establish if anyone was at fault. Personally think I would have a good case based on current laws, but in the end only the courts could really say was it right or wrong.




[edit on 22/6/08 by MikeboydUS]