Freemasonry is NOT a Religion!

Originally posted by JoshNorton
Well, you've presented some facts, but no thesis.

That's quite often the way I operate. Just pointing out a fact, especially to remind people of the obvious, is powerful enough on its own. "Opinions" are far more annoying and distracting. And if I remember correctly, my little foray began in response to Light seemingly claiming the fact that some belief in a higher power is in itself something laudable. (I do recall him saying somewhere that he's a "Christian," so there might have been an ulterior motive behind it that was directed at him personally; nevertheless, my observations are the truth.)

reply to post by Fire_In_The_Minds_of_Men


Thank you for the reply.

I am not sure how you mean we do not inform new members of our strict none religious policy..

All new members are told that the Craft admits men of all faiths..

Granted, I have also heard of Lodges that do not pray to "one universal God" but rather to Jesus Christ..

Not all of Masonry is as tolerant..

But for the most part, Masons are well informed that God means God in every sense you can imagine.

Why should we even attempt to argue with those who have made up their minds on this subject? I see so many debates on freemasonry and in all of them no matter how much you do to ensure them of the facts they keep their initial ideas that the fraternity is evil or involved in conspiracy and we plan to take over the world and brain wash everyone.

Let them believe and continue to dream up their illusions, we know the truth and that is all that matters. They are in the dark and forever will be. You cant change the minds of these people so move forward.

Just my opinion for what it is worth.

Originally posted by JoshNorton
"Is Freemasonry a religion?"

I think it's a waste of time.

Other than the obvious religious aspects of the ritual and ceremonies, which I gather have a spiritual vibe about them, anything more than pointing this out is futile.

The semantics of the question itself, and the answer-turned-thread, is off-base. Freemasonry is only mystical, at best.

However, some zealous Masons I've encountered online certainly seem to idealize the entire notion of the thing called Freemasonry, almost to the extreme of outright idolatry. This behavior alone could certainly be characterized as cultist.

reply to post by Fire_In_The_Minds_of_Men

I think it's a waste of time.

Could explain why your not a Mason .. Freemasonry is not for everyone. We don't try and make it fit for everyone either.

Other than the obvious religious aspects of the ritual and ceremonies, which I gather have a spiritual vibe about them, anything more than pointing this out is futile.

Rituals in and of them selves are not religious in anyway, as they are openly admitted in the degree to be a parable of the teachings (philosophies) you should be gathering from them. Religion would imply a worship of some kind, a set of dogmatic rules, and a base to which the entire population of Masons would put as religious beliefs, typically offering salvation, damnation, or some goal to reach through the belief of the dogma. Freemasonry's philosophies are in fact philosophies which should be abided simply because it's the right thing to do.

The semantics of the question itself, and the answer-turned-thread, is off-base. Freemasonry is only mystical, at best.

If the thread was a waste of your.. oh .. so precious time, no one forced you to partake in the discussion. Many people believe Freemasonry is a religion, hence the thread.

However, some zealous Masons I've encountered online certainly seem to idealize the entire notion of the thing called Freemasonry

Could the word your looking for be "respect" of the organization to which they belong? I have met no Mason who "worshiped" Masonry, be it idol worship or what have you. Some with a narrow view on the world may see that, but quite frankly I care little on the thoughts from the likes of you.

reply to post by Rockpuck


Josh asked me a specific question.

I answered it.

Originally posted by Rockpuck
Rituals in and of them selves are not religious in anyway

Rituals are the key features, I'd say, that makes religions, well, religious. Otherwise you'd just be praying at home or amongst fellow devotes. Without ritual, there is no fellowship and a shared spirituality.

Could the word your looking for be "respect" of the organization

No, much more than that. I did not mean anything other than precisely what I said (and, no, you're not one of the extreme zealots).

[edit on 23-6-2008 by Fire_In_The_Minds_of_Men]

reply to post by Fire_In_The_Minds_of_Men


No, anything can be ritualistic, and it does not have to be religious. Ritual is only the repeated actions that, for the most part, go unchanged. Thats what makes a ritual a ritual. If the rituals changed every day, month, year.. it wouldn't be a ritual, only a parable, but when it becomes custom and tradition it can be a ritualistic parable.

Religion is the structured beliefs, dogma, and worship that make it a religion. But like any religion rituals are involved.. religious rituals or different then rituals .. because anything can be ritualistic. Brushing your teeth in the morning, taking a shower.. thats a ritual.

Also Freemasonic rituals do not impress or include the worship of any deity or any religious school of thought. It's only a story.

I don't know if the OP is Edit or lying but it has to be one of the two and here is why I say so.

Albert Pike is the greatest and most known MASON ever in American History and in fact is the only southern confederate General to have a statue in Wash D.C. and he wrote this little book that some of you may have heard of called "Morals and Dogma" which is basically the bible of Masonry and the Scottish Rite in particular, why don't we see what he says about Masonry and religion shall we?

Morals and Dogma pp 213-214 - "Every Masonic Lodge is a Temple of Religion... and its teaching and instruction is a Religion. That is the true religion revealed t the Ancient Patriarchs; which Masonry has taught for many centuries, and which it will continue to teach as long as time endures."

Now I am sure I will be censured or some other thing for publishing the FACTS and the TRUTH as to this topic as I usually am, so if you are reading this save it now before they remove it.

I am so tired of the crapola about the POOR MASONS GETTING PICKED ON!!! All those good people do is help kids and other such crapola, think about this, if you were a piece of trash group doing harm to everyone around you what would be the best cover story you could us? Maybe helping kids for free? Did you know that to become a Shriner you must be a 32nd degree Mason for more than 6 months and it is the highest degree you can make, the 33rd Degree is an honorary degree and not earned If you want more information on this topic you can use Google Video and search for Walter Veith and Bill Schnoeblen or some spelling close to that. The Bill Schnoblen videos would come up under the search term "The Prophecy Club". Bill was a 32nddegree Mason and a high witch who left and started talking about the Masons and what they really stand for.

Further to say I have not anything...


Mod Edit - Please review: Courtesy Is Mandatory

[edit on 23/6/2008 by Sauron]

reply to post by Rockpuck


Your rituals are more religious than you admit. The whole staging of it, the strategic use of light and sound, the gestures, the bling-bling regalia, the rote recitation and profuse dialogue almost to the point of incantation. These things are indeed elaborate rituals with extreme religious-like overtones.

However, if you're willing to call it a mystical play ... then I'm game.

[edit on 23-6-2008 by Fire_In_The_Minds_of_Men]

reply to post by theindependentjournal

I don't know if the OP is Edit or lying but it has to be one of the two and here is why I say so.

Mmboy can't wait to be edykated...

Albert Pike is the greatest and most known MASON ever in American History and in fact is the only southern confederate General to have a statue in Wash D.C. and he wrote this little book that some of you may have heard of called "Morals and Dogma" which is basically the bible of Masonry and the Scottish Rite in particular, why don't we see what he says about Masonry and religion shall we?

I don't know if your Edit, ignorant or both .. but ..

Albert Pike was, according to SOME Masons, to be a Popular Mason .. however .. typically in the Southern Jurisdiction .. which, if you where a tadbit more studious in researching, you would know there are TWO jurisdictions in the US for the SR.

The Northern Jurisdiction does not recognize Pike as being anything special. Morals And Dogma, a good bit of writing, is nothing more then Pike's personal opinions, and are regarded as such in Freemasonry. Perhaps if you where not such a pompous ass, you would have known this.

Also you would know that, again puting your own ignorance aside, that quoting out of context in any article written by Pike is a mistake in and of it's self. Pike later in the same book says the complete opposite of the mis-quoted bit you just got there.

But again judging from your menial display of intelligence thus far, one would have to conclude that you merely typed "pike" and "religion" in Google and came up with that tid bit of information.

Now I am sure I will be censured or some other thing for publishing the FACTS and the TRUTH as to this topic as I usually am, so if you are reading this save it now before they remove it.

So far from an irrational display of stupidity I have seen nothing noteworthy to be taken down by mods .. your quote (out of context) is constantly repeated, and debunked by Masons on ATS. Which, again, if you had the intellectual ability to comprehend and read the actual topics of this forum, you would know that.

I am so tired of the crapola about the POOR MASONS GETTING PICKED ON!!! All those good people do is help kids and other such crapola, think about this, if you were a piece of trash group doing harm to everyone around you what would be the best cover story you could us? Maybe helping kids for free?

Crapola? Are you 12? .. No body here is complaining about Masonry getting picked on .. I made this thread to clear misconceptions, a thread from the sounds of it you in your arrogance, decided not to read. No doubt it was below you.

Did you know that to become a Shriner you must be a 32nd degree Mason for more than 6 months and it is the highest degree you can make

Surely someone of your intellectual caliber would know that in fact, the 3rd degree is the highest Masonic degree. And the Shrine allows the initiation of anyone who has attained the 3rd degree, not the 32º.

the 33rd Degree is an honorary degree and not earned If you want more information on this topic you can use Google Video and search for Walter Veith and Bill Schnoeblen or some spelling close to that. The Bill Schnoblen videos would come up under the search term "The Prophecy Club". Bill was a 32nddegree Mason and a high witch who left and started talking about the Masons and what they really stand for.

Well there we have it ladies and gents! The source of wisdom for this intellectual crusader is revealed to be none other then Google Video and the likes of Bill Schnoblen

Surely it is amazing to have predicted so early on the ignorance of the poster, for his information was so wrong and false that one could only imagine where he attained this misinformation. From Bill himself.

Some info for you on Bill. His life story is the most comical I have ever read!

Bill and his LIES

Hehe, enjoy.




Mod Edit - Please review: Courtesy Is Mandatory

[edit on 23/6/2008 by Sauron]

reply to post by Fire_In_The_Minds_of_Men


I am not disagreeing that masonry admits all men from all faiths or belief systems that include a notion of a Supreme Being.

However, you stated that this was the primary reason why some religious institutions disliked it, and in fact inferred that many masons believe in these things. The research suggests quite the opposite - that masonry generally reflects the population where it is practiced. This means the majority of masons are NOT from the sort of belief systems you named. I am also unsure of the point - I personally don't care how many new age/new though people are in masonry.

Religious opposition to masonry based on the practices of a minority of its members would be odd, since there are many other organizations that also have people who believe in different religions. The research suggests instead that those churches who dislike masonry are generally intolerant of all groups who mix members of the church in question with non-members. It could be as simple as a ecumenical group that mixed Baptists and Catholics. I understand what your saying, but I think the root of the opposition is coming from a different angle - the difference in motives is small but very important.

reply to post by Fire_In_The_Minds_of_Men


Nothing you described about Masonic ritual actually makes it a religion. Your missing all of the components I have already stated.

Light, sound and regalia do not make a religion. No more so does the cossack a priest wear make it a religion .. the actual topic, dogma, worship and so forth are all missing.

It is merely theatrical.

Originally posted by Fire_In_The_Minds_of_Men
That you agree is more than enough for me. Maybe you'll stick up for me then when Light comes by to contradict me not on substance or facts, but for the sole reason that the post was written by what he perceives as his enemy (so it couldn't possibly have any validity coming from an "anti").

My my, isn't someone bitter. It appears I can't even respond to a thread without you trolling all over me. Projecting much?

I remember an old cliche that seems very appropriate here: It is better to be thought ignorant than to open your mouth and remove all doubt.

You have claimed all sorts of things make something a religion...which do not. As Rockpuck has said, use of ritual is not religious - nor is anything else you have claimed.

[edit on 23-6-2008 by ALightinDarkness]

reply to post by Rockpuck


Rockpuck, are you saying that the masonic rituals don't have any dogma in them? What about all the legends and the re-enactment?

[edit on 23-6-2008 by Capozzelli]

Originally posted by Rockpuck
It is merely theatrical.

It is much more than theatrics. A Deity is invoked. That, in combination with all the bling-bling mystico-babble ... and ohh my!

Originally posted by theindependentjournal
Morals and Dogma pp 213-214 - "Every Masonic Lodge is a Temple of Religion... and its teaching and instruction is a Religion. That is the true religion revealed t the Ancient Patriarchs; which Masonry has taught for many centuries, and which it will continue to teach as long as time endures."

I addressed this quote on the second page of this thread. Quoting Pike out of context will get you nowhere. Now, if you want to read the preceding pages, say pp211-214, you'd see he's means something quite different when he uses the word "religion".

Originally posted by Rockpuck
Your missing all of the components I have already stated

Ohh yes, the brushing of the teeth bit. I remember.

reply to post by Capozzelli


Legends and re-enactments are actually parables!

Aside from that, neither Legends, re-enactments or parables are Dogmatic in any form....

However, all can be added TO Dogma.

It is much more than theatrics. A Deity is invoked. That, in combination with all the bling-bling mystico-babble ... and ohh my!

And you know this even though you are not a Mason? Quite astonishing. No, it is nothing more then theatrics, and does not involve and exclusive religious teachings.

Ohh yes, the brushing of the teeth bit. I remember.

Wallo in your own self consumed ignorance if you choose. Your childish behavior earns you a spot on my Ignore list. If your not going to bring an educated argument with your pompous attitude, your quite honestly below me to debate with.

Originally posted by Fire_In_The_Minds_of_Men
However, some zealous Masons I've encountered online certainly seem to idealize the entire notion of the thing called Freemasonry, almost to the extreme of outright idolatry. This behavior alone could certainly be characterized as cultist.

We're actually warned against it... I fall into the trap, myself, at times. But generally don't get as rankled as a few others here might.

In your outward demeanor, be particularly careful to avoid censure or reproach. Let no interest, favor or prejudice, bias your integrity, or influence you to be guilty of a dishonorable action.
...
neither are you to suffer your zeal for the institution to lead you into argument with those who, through ignorance, may ridicule it.

—The Monitor of the Lodge, Charge to the Entered Apprentice Mason