Masons not a secret society

Originally posted by zoe_jane
"The pyramids in South and central America are four time larger thatn the one in Gaza and older"
this comment is not true, as the pyramids of egypt were during the III Dynasty, and were built during 2649-2150 BC, and the Olmecs were around 1400 BC. The Barra were around before then (1800 BC) but they did not have any pyramids to my knowledge.
if this does not pertain to this discussion board, than sorry, but when i see something that is being passed off as a fact, when it is not true, then i try to speak up.
maybe i'm wrong, i didn't really pay that much attention to my archaeology of Mesoamerica class.
if i'm wrong, i'll just blame it on the blonde hair

Blonde hair huh! No ma'am the pyramids in South and Central are far large rin size. Also in Mexico. Some are around the same time as the ones in the east you refer to. Also not just the Olmecs but Mayans/ Aztecs as well.24 ton sculptures. The mexican (4th) calendar is also similar to the egyptian calendar. Various tribes such as the Osage and Apache Indians use the same crescent moon symbols as many African countries.

The masons are seemingly harmless (at least the ones in my area are). I think the local mason lodge is cool. I know the barman and he showed me around, introduced me to everyone - can you knock down $2 for unlimited drinks before 5PM?

Well, i think we're in the wrong discussion board for this. Interesting what you said....though the aztecs and mayans came after the olmecs. don't know much about the mexican 4th calander though, so you could be right. Excuse my ignorance!!

Originally posted by AlexKennedy

Originally posted by MOOR45
Moor is not a race but a culture. I t predates what you think is the beginning of the (Moors of Spain). However the Moors have a history of different names not just Moor.

Sorry, but this is, to me, just specious reasoning. By your logic, I could call myself an "Atlantean," and claim a long unrevealed history which proves that I am indeed an Atlantean. Then, I could go on to claim that as an Atlantean, I am the rightful owner of all coastal cities, and cry "racism!" when someone tried to stop me evicting everyone from Vancouver.

If you're going to make words not mean anything anymore, then you can't use those same words to bolster an argument. If you want "Moor" to mean precisely whatever you choose it to mean, then calling yourself a "Moor" doesn't mean anything!

The pyramids in South and central America are four time larger thatn the one in Gaza and older. What does that mean? Obviously people were here on this continent as well.

Yes, they were called Native Americans. Many of their decendants are still here, despite the efforts of some cruel and genocidal Governments that will remain nameless

Second, black is not a proper noun if used to describe a color.

Yes, and a cow isn't a quadruped if you cut off one of its legs. So what?

You cant be Black and African American.

You CAN'T?!?! How does that work? Let's take Kareem Abdul Jabbar. A very good man, and I think his new book is quite good (haven't read it myself, though). Let's see... dark skin... by God, I think he's Black! Now, where did his ancestors come from? Why, many of the came from Africa! That would make him, I guess, an "African American!"

Black is not a race.

Nobody here ever claimed it was!

The term only originated here in the United States in the mid to late 1600's. Then blacks were called Moors Black a Moor, among other descriptions. Dont believe me look up the Virginia Black Codes.

So, because people in the 1600s were ignorant, that means we should be too?

You showed me a defintion that black could be a person of African American heritage correct? Wouldn't that mean that black and African american are the same? And Kareem Abdul Jabbar is not the color of my tires, and Europeans are not the color of loose leaf. They are incorrect terms to use for everyone. There is race with a color attached to it. That is what I am trying to tel you. I never said I'm going to evict everone of the land just telling you what it is. Obviously you need to do some more research on these subjects. I only mentioned the Black Codes as a reference. Relax. Just told you to show that the use of white, black, or colors, is relatively new. Can you understand that? Dont get so excited! And if you were born here you are a native too!

Originally posted by zoe_jane
Well, i think we're in the wrong discussion board for this. Interesting what you said....though the aztecs and mayans came after the olmecs. don't know much about the mexican 4th calander though, so you could be right. Excuse my ignorance!!

Yeah we need another room. Yes the mayans and aztecs came after but they are really the same. As empires changed and movements were made throughout the continents, they left behind alot of stuff. Same people though. They are the original natives!

Originally posted by Ezekial
The masons are seemingly harmless (at least the ones in my area are). I think the local mason lodge is cool. I know the barman and he showed me around, introduced me to everyone - can you knock down $2 for unlimited drinks before 5PM?

Can't knock it at all!

yes, but there were cultural differences between the empires, not exactly the same, but i think we are on the same page, so to speak.


i think that is unfortunate that using colors to define people have crept into languages (as it is in more than just english). It says a lot as to our society, and how people think (I am not refering to alex, just society in general) Anyhow, thanks for the info on mezoamerica.

Originally posted by zoe_jane
yes, but there were cultural differences between the empires, not exactly the same, but i think we are on the same page, so to speak.


i think that is unfortunate that using colors to define people have crept into languages (as it is in more than just english). It says a lot as to our society, and how people think (I am not refering to alex, just society in general) Anyhow, thanks for the info on mezoamerica.

Yes indeed. Thank you.

Originally posted by Leveller

"Denegrated"?
How does calling God the Great Architect denigrate him?
An architect lays down the blueprint. He is where the buck stops. He is numero uno on any job. Without the architect's plan's there can be nothing. He is the main man.Get my drift?

To neutrally call God merely an architect denigrates him to the level of being the master designer, but it does not infer anything past this point. To subjugate the omnipotence of God to make him fit any mold to which any religion prescribes to is offensive to Christians.
Calling God the Great Architect is not quite the same as saying "God the Father Almighty Creator of Heaven and Earth, of all that is seen and unseen". An architect often does not directly influence and control the actions of his designs once they become creations. You may say that this is merely symantics, but Christians often see it differently.
Christians see a difference between coming together in the spirit of unity to worship as brothers in each your own way and coming together in a room and participating in a ceremony where you pay tribute and pray to an unspecified diety.
If you haven't guessed it yet, I am deliberately bringing to light the predjudices which are out there in the Christian community in relation to Freemasons and the meetings of the Blue Lodges. Since there are non-Masons here visiting this board inquiring to join a Lodge of Master Masons, my line of discussion means to serve a purpose.

I don't know that I would agree with it... as was noted above, Supreme Architect of the Universe pretty much defines god...

As for the rest... well, that is your position, and obviously it is not shared by Christian Masons (who would, by the way, be in a better position to judge...) nor by a majority of the world. But, Masonry teaches me its okay that others have different views. That the facts show your interpretation to be incorrect is the only issue here.

Interesting forum. There is so much to talk about.

Originally posted by MOOR45
And I'm sorry you feel reading books I suggest is a waste of time. I've never heard a statement like that but to each his own. Just trying to give you something to expand on. Reading never hurts. Besides the author can tell you better in his own words thatn me paraphrasing.

Here's my problem, Moor45. Try to follow my reasoning: I have a limited amount of time in which I feel comfortable reading every day. Here is a list of books I am currently reading (i.e I am somewhere in the middle of them, and actively pursuing reading them:

Rising Up and Rising Down
Relativity: The Special and the General Theory: A Clear Explanation that Anyone can Understand
The Adept
A Survey of Hinduism
Secret Teachings of All the Ages
The Cult of Efficiency
Essential Sufism
McSweeney's Quarterly Conern #13
Misreadings (Umberto Eco's)


This list does not include books I would like to read, but have not yet found the time for. Additionally to these books, I am currently working on a research paper for the local Research Lodge (co-incidentally enough, the paper is on fallacious claims about the origin of Freemasonry!); also, I am buying a new car (my first car, actually) and working out the obscenely high insurance rates. Also, I am preparing to volounteer at a summer school for poor, inner city, and recently immigrated Elementary School students. I am also on the board which oversees said school. I am also on the Scottish Rite Leadership Council for my Province. There are many other things I do, but they are no more impressive than the numerous things everyone else does, of course. I'm not writing this to brag, simply to illustrate the fact that I have limited time.

Now, you come on the board, say "Ah, well, you see, I actually know what the origin of Freemasonry, and did I mention that Freemasonry is actually derived (somehow) from Moorish Science?" I say, "Could you please tell me your thesis, i.e. a general description of your theory, and perhaps give some points of evidence that lead you to believe this?" And you tell me "No. If you ask me nicely, I will tell you the titles of some books which you can purchase at your own expense and read through in their entirety. I refuse to present arguments in any other way, because the authors of these books present their points better than I could."

This is all very well and good, but I'm not going to read the books. If you want to prove to me something I'm disinclined to believe, you'd better bring the theory and evidence to ME, rather than requiring me to go out and find the evidence. This must necessarily be so, because there are vastly more incorrect theories than there are correct ones. No person has enough time to do all the work themselves, thus the onus is on the person presenting the theory.

Originally posted by theron dunn
As for the rest... well, that is your position, and obviously it is not shared by Christian Masons (who would, by the way, be in a better position to judge...) nor by a majority of the world. . That the facts show your interpretation to be incorrect is the only issue here.

Be careful when declaring opinion to be fact. Maybe you didn't catch the notation in my couple of posts where I stated that I am a Christian Mason. You would be correct in stating that many Christian Masons do not have issues with the principal, but some do. I am also bringing into this discussion the opinions of those Christians outside of the craft who object to Masonry. As I have already stated, my intention is to promote discussion on the subject. I do not intend to engage in debate, just to bring to light and discuss through the predjudices which exist. I may have made statements which seem inflamatory, but strong statements promote strong discussion.

Originally posted by MOOR45
Okay you want documentation, here it is.
As far as freemasonry is concerned there is Holy Blood Holy Grail.

Sadly, I have read "The Holy Blood and the Holy Grail." It is very poorly done, academically speaking, filled with a fallacy common to many works on conspiracy: the authors present a supposition as a supposition, then several pages later, take the supposition as if it is proven fact.

Additionally, the authors rely on documents from the made-up "Priory of Sion," and believe the lies (they are demonstrably lies) told by Plantard about that society.

I know of no serious Masonic Scholar who feels that "The Holy Blood and the Holy Grail" is anything other than inspired fiction.

Originally posted by MOOR45
Dont get so excited! And if you were born here you are a native too!

Well, first of all, I'm Canadian, not from the states, and second of all, no, I call Native Americans that because they are (at least in Canada) the rightful owners of the entire continent. I realise that in the States you acquired your land by conquest, but up here we received the land we have through treaty, so that, in a sense, we are renting the land from its real owners in return for certain considerations. Many would argue with me about it, but I don't see how it can be denied. But that is another discussion thread.

Yes, I was born in Canada, so in a sense I am a "Native Canadian." After all, Canada is my "home and Native Land." But to me, only the First Nations are truly Native to this land. I am just a visitor.

Todays developments in this post have been quite interesting, I regret that I was not around all day to partake in the immediate exchange of ideas and opinions. However I will speak my peace now.

The issue at hand is simply one of experience and perspective. Moor45, you seem to be quite knowledgeable but also a bit anxious and over-zealous, please take no offense to this as its not my intent. I am well aware of the Moorish Science Temple of America, and their teachings, thus I understand the perspective you are speaking from. However as im sure you know there is the accepted, traditional lines of history and thought, and the ... more controversial ones. I would imagine that an individual such as yourself would choose your battles wisely, determing when and where to share what information as all battles cannot be won and all are not worth fighting. You have shared your views with several very knowledgeable, moral individuals, and they consequently have shared theirs with you, which you refute. My question is why? What do you hope to achieve, and more importantly is your goal achievable?

Before I proceed let me give you a little information on myself so you can better understand from what background and experience I speak from.

I myself could be called a Moor according to the teachings of Nobel Drew Ali, as I am Half Cherokee, Half Black. I studied at the Kemetic Institute from ages 8-12, a personal student of the now late, Dr. Jacob Karuthers. I graduated form this institute and am well versed in all things relating to Kemet (ancient egypt). I am the god son of John Ali, the man who at one time was said to be more powerful than Elijah Muhammad himself in regards to the Nation of Islam. I am a previous member of the Nation of Gods and Earths, commonly referred to as the 5%ers, yes I know 120. I was raised by many Master Masons and Eastern Stars. I am a member of the Ancient Egiptian Order and am a Master Mason in excellent standing in the Lodge of Amonhotep #18 under the Grand Lodge of Amon Ra, Ancient Kemetic Moorish Science Masons Jurisdiction of Illinois, Egiptian Rite, Scottish Rite Jurisdiction. Additionally im in my 15th year of research, regarding.........many things. These are just a few of my credentials.

Back to my point. There has been a great exchange of claims and ideas on both sides of the discussion yet there has been no clear explanations. If you wish to openly propose the non traditionally recognized theories on the origins of freemasonry and the crafts history as a whole then by all means do so but do so in a detailed manner, one which can be respected and critiqued, discussed and analyzed. You have to understand the response you have gotten from my fellow Masons (and outstanding ones I might add) as a consequence of your post. I am well aware and versed in the proposed origins of freemasonry in antiquity as are many other Masons yet one thing you must realize is that many Masons chalk things up rather simply; If the Grand Lodges don't recognize it then its not accurate and doesnt matter. After all many could care less. Additionally most individuals arent as fortunate as you and I to be exposed to the lessons of Nobel Drew Ali, and the line of thinkers that spawned from him, so they know nothing of these teachings, or schools of thought, its totally foreign. Additionally proposing the things that you did in regards to freemasonry is a bit disrespectful to freemasons as it contradicts our accepted history, and our system.

Its quite late and im quite exhausted from my long day so I hope this post is somewhat coherant. If anyone has any questions about anything I have mentioned please feel free to ask and I will explain as in depth as possible, this goes especially for my brethren.

Im going to get some rest.
HOTEP

Originally posted by Khonsu
Todays developments in this post have been quite interesting, I regret that I was not around all day to partake in the immediate exchange of ideas and opinions. However I will speak my peace now.

The issue at hand is simply one of experience and perspective. Moor45, you seem to be quite knowledgeable but also a bit anxious and over-zealous, please take no offense to this as its not my intent. I am well aware of the Moorish Science Temple of America, and their teachings, thus I understand the perspective you are speaking from. However as im sure you know there is the accepted, traditional lines of history and thought, and the ... more controversial ones. I would imagine that an individual such as yourself would choose your battles wisely, determing when and where to share what information as all battles cannot be won and all are not worth fighting. You have shared your views with several very knowledgeable, moral individuals, and they consequently have shared theirs with you, which you refute. My question is why? What do you hope to achieve, and more importantly is your goal achievable?

Before I proceed let me give you a little information on myself so you can better understand from what background and experience I speak from.

I myself could be called a Moor according to the teachings of Nobel Drew Ali, as I am Half Cherokee, Half Black. I studied at the Kemetic Institute from ages 8-12, a personal student of the now late, Dr. Jacob Karuthers. I graduated form this institute and am well versed in all things relating to Kemet (ancient egypt). I am the god son of John Ali, the man who at one time was said to be more powerful than Elijah Muhammad himself in regards to the Nation of Islam. I am a previous member of the Nation of Gods and Earths, commonly referred to as the 5%ers, yes I know 120. I was raised by many Master Masons and Eastern Stars. I am a member of the Ancient Egiptian Order and am a Master Mason in excellent standing in the Lodge of Amonhotep #18 under the Grand Lodge of Amon Ra, Ancient Kemetic Moorish Science Masons Jurisdiction of Illinois, Egiptian Rite, Scottish Rite Jurisdiction. Additionally im in my 15th year of research, regarding.........many things. These are just a few of my credentials.

Back to my point. There has been a great exchange of claims and ideas on both sides of the discussion yet there has been no clear explanations. If you wish to openly propose the non traditionally recognized theories on the origins of freemasonry and the crafts history as a whole then by all means do so but do so in a detailed manner, one which can be respected and critiqued, discussed and analyzed. You have to understand the response you have gotten from my fellow Masons (and outstanding ones I might add) as a consequence of your post. I am well aware and versed in the proposed origins of freemasonry in antiquity as are many other Masons yet one thing you must realize is that many Masons chalk things up rather simply; If the Grand Lodges don't recognize it then its not accurate and doesnt matter. After all many could care less. Additionally most individuals arent as fortunate as you and I to be exposed to the lessons of Nobel Drew Ali, and the line of thinkers that spawned from him, so they know nothing of these teachings, or schools of thought, its totally foreign. Additionally proposing the things that you did in regards to freemasonry is a bit disrespectful to freemasons as it contradicts our accepted history, and our system.

Its quite late and im quite exhausted from my long day so I hope this post is somewhat coherant. If anyone has any questions about anything I have mentioned please feel free to ask and I will explain as in depth as possible, this goes especially for my brethren.

Im going to get some rest.
HOTEP

Thanks for your comments. However, just because one refutes something is no reason to be defensive. We will not all see eye to eye. I know gentlemen who are Masons of Egyptian Rite, Scottish York and I never have any problems discussing these topics. If you read these posts carefully, you will see a remark where one of your brothers assumed I saw him as a white devil. So when you say some of your brothers feel disrespected let us look at the whole spectrum shall we? That brother apologized and we kept it moving. Again read my posts where I even list literature to clarify the subject. I was told "I dont need those books". I was just contributing what I read or heard of as an intellectual. You are way off buy assuming I am trying to win something. I am just attempting to keep open minds. As a matter of fact, if you look carefully, I was the only one to provide references. Why did you not question why no references against my point were not provided. Let's be fair. Nothing is set in stone, but no Mason should be disrespected because someone says something contradictory in nature. That is life. There is always more room to learn something else regardless of what you are and what you believe unless it is downright off the wall. As Masons, do you or did you not remain humble upon your initiations to receive light? All I ask is that you do the same. We all should be humble because we can learn from each other. I have no beendisrespectful to anyone and have carried my self as intellectually upright as possible and made some fun to keep it light. Please Gentleman and Ladies, loosen up. I used to hear crazy things about Masons before I raised my knowledge. I kept and open mind and studied. That is what scientist do. Not get upset when something new is introduced as I sensed with some members here. I hope you can understand that. As I took time to study about Masonry others can do with Moorish history which is not just "black" history but everyones. And I know Mason with your credentials who went the opposite direction. Everyone travels differently. I may not be your Masonic brother but I am your brother and everone else's as well.

Originally posted by Khonsu
I am a member of the Ancient Egiptian Order and am a Master Mason in excellent standing in the Lodge of Amonhotep #18 under the Grand Lodge of Amon Ra, Ancient Kemetic Moorish Science Masons Jurisdiction of Illinois, Egiptian Rite, Scottish Rite Jurisdiction.

Khonsu, I am surprised to find that you are a member of a Grand Lodge which is generally considered Clandestine. The fact that you are erudite and seem to be regular on many issues certainly raises my estimation of this Grand Lodge (not that you need my approval, of course, but I hope you take this for the complement it is).

Now, I want to lay all my cards on the table, and I sincerely hope that you will not get upset with me, consider me a racist, or anything else. Here's the deal: as I generally understand the word, I don't like Afrocentrism. Now, keep in mind, this is only as I understand the word.

As far as I've been exposed to it on this board, and in the outside world in general, there are several points of Afrocentrism with which I have trouble. If any of these do not characterise Moorish Science, please forgive me, because I am without a doubt acting from a position of ignorance.

1. The apparently prevalent belief that all "Europeans" are inevitably and irreparably racist, and that every "European" person will always support "white supremacy." To me, this belief has only one logical conclusion: the "Europeans" must be removed. How could I agree with this?

2. The belief (again, it seems to me) that Freemasonry actually properly "belongs" to the Nation of Islam, or Moorish Science, or what have you, and that we poor ignorant fools are only learning what we simple "Muslim Sons" are allowed to learn. If you have this opinion, I don't know how we can ever come to agreement. I certainly don't believe that Freemasonry or the general archetypes it embodies are in any way exclusively European, but I can't in good conscience believe they're exclusively African or "Moorish," either.

Now, if Moorish science wants to have its own initiatic system, then I say, more power to you. I think it would be a wonderful thing for Moorish Science to have. But when you claim that what I do actually belongs to you, I don't see how I can be anything other than upset. Now, this has nothing to do with skin colour, by the way. Yes, I happen to have white skin (a little too white, at times, in my opinion, but who really likes the way they look? ), but there are people in my Lodge who would typically be described as "Black." The man I probably most admire as an Educator, the man for whom I am working now, and a member of my Lodge is Steve Ramsankar, who is from Jamaica, and certainly not "white." I have no idea how he would be "classified," (possibly East Indian, because of his last name?) but in Canada we seem (seem to me, mind you) to place less emphasis on this than you do in the states. I'm sure they would be just as insulted to hear that their beloved craft was being notionally "taken over" by some outside group. By what right does Moorish Science claim our teachings as belonging to them?

Again, if I have gotten this hideously wrong, please forgive me. I am utterly useless at discussing things such as racism and sexism -- this is something I know about myself. I know that the problems they raise are deep and complex, but I also know that a basic concern for the welfare of all people is as important as solving those problems.

Originally posted by AlexKennedy

Originally posted by MOOR45
Okay you want documentation, here it is.
As far as freemasonry is concerned there is Holy Blood Holy Grail.

Sadly, I have read "The Holy Blood and the Holy Grail." It is very poorly done, academically speaking, filled with a fallacy common to many works on conspiracy: the authors present a supposition as a supposition, then several pages later, take the supposition as if it is proven fact.

Additionally, the authors rely on documents from the made-up "Priory of Sion," and believe the lies (they are demonstrably lies) told by Plantard about that society.

I know of no serious Masonic Scholar who feels that "The Holy Blood and the Holy Grail" is anything other than inspired fiction.

Well you are entitled to your opinion as there are many who will see different. It's just a book. I just mentioned Masonry has roots in Moorish history not the moorish science temple. How did I come to that , by reading and researching, which if you looked carefully I said several times in my posts where archaelogical evidence showed lodges buried dating back thousands of years. I dont just make up info I read learn from others,etc. I was only trying to assist you but you seem to want to be at odds. I have no desire to do that but just presented a point. That is all. I am just as busy as you are and can't read everything, but be sure if you tell me to look I will at least give you the benefit of the doubt before running off at the mouth to say you are wrong. That is just basic discovery. I have almost everyone here frowning. I'm by myself here yet I haven't pounced on anyone. We have our opinions, etc agree to disagree. Isn't that more sensible?

Originally posted by MOOR45
I may not be your Masonic brother but I am your brother and everone else's as well.

This, I can agree with 100%. I laud what you are saying here.

Please don't misunderstand me... I don't mean to suggest that you are not a Son of Adam and Brother of the Dust. Not only that, you are a fellow initiate, although our initiatic systems may be different. I simply disagree with you about the origins of Masonry.

Also, Moor45, you claim to be a scientist. As a scientist, you must be aware that when a new thesis is presented, references for the antithesis are not required. The onus is completely on the person who presents the new thesis to prove his or her point. Those who cry out "prove me wrong!!!" are looking at things the wrong way up. Before anyone is required to prove you wrong, you are required to prove yourself right. This is always the case with science, and the same rules apply to everyone.