Masons not a secret society

A link to an article is not necessarily "evidence" obviously because alot of that article is errant. If all you want me to do is provide links I can do that but I really dont like to do research based on the internet strictly, hence the books I listed. Not a complete listing nut some. I think Masonic Light provided even prett good detail on how Masonic documents showed Masonry in the 13th century in antoher link. This is all I was trying to do. I may not hav the same info but I have seen similar info. This is all was trying to say taht it has a history far back to what many members think. And you say you provided that link to show me how to explain myself, but you just happen to pull one of bogus masonry and about Moor and the MSTA. You are very funny. Whatever gets you off.

Originally posted by GoddessSekhmet
First off comments that someone is a bigot and a fool is not conducive to a productive conversation and discusion.

Really? I would suggest that snide, backhanded comments about how your great-grandfather wouldn't allow his daughter to marry Freemasons are "not conducive to a productive conversation and discussion."

Hmmm... accusations are OK coming from you, but not from anyone else. I see how this works.

If you have ever had any college education then you would know this from communication classes.

1994 - 1998 B.Sc. cum laude in Honours Microbiology, University of Alberta, Canada.

1999 - 2000 Research Scholar, Monbusho (Japanese Ministry of Education) Scholarship, Kyoto University Institute for Chemical research. Resulting paper in "Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences of the United States of America" on selenium biochemistry and its affect of tRNA synthesis.

2000 - 2001 Research Technician, Laboratory of Dr. G. J. Tyrell, University of Alberta. Resulting paper in "Microbiology" on human cell infection by Group B Streptococcus.

2001 - 2002 Researcher, Dr. Locksley McGann's cryobiology laboratory, Uniersity of Alberta. Studied feasibility of cryopreservation of corneal cells for transplant.

2003 - present Studying for Bachelour of Education in Secondary instruction, Major: Biological Sciences, Minor: Chemistry.

Just so we know who went to which "college," OK? Since, after all, your level of education must determine the validity of your arguments, right?

To say someones idea of the Freemasons that may have been just from hearsay was unjustified then I would agree. But to say bigot, when the masons are just like the boy scouts only with big boys, when a father says not to marry someone, from a group not a race, to their children is rather erroneous.

Really? That seems like the very definition of bigotry to me. Let's check good old www.dictionary.com...

big�ot
n.

One who is strongly partial to one's own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ.

Sounds pretty intolerant to me to forbid one's daughters to marry Masons. Besides, you didn't mean the comment merely to indicate your G-Grandfather's opinion, oh no... you were trying to backhandedly slander the Masons: "Look! My Great-Grandfather wouldn't allow his female relitaves to marry Masons! Aren't Masons scary and awful!?!?" Then, when you're caught doing it, you can turn around and say "Oh, well, I didn't mean anything by it! I just was innocently expressing what my Great-Grandfather did!"

But I was more offened by the fool part!!! That would be like a Jewish father telling his daughters that they should not trust or marry a non- Jew. That is ok because it is a religous belief? Or would you call that father a bigot and a fool. I think not!!

I think it would be awful for a Jewish father to say this. Again, he would be a bigot. And I've never known any Jew in my life who told his relatives not to "trust" non-Jews, just for the record.

You through out 2 of them but what of the other 3 the 5th one was from a Mason himself as to not seem like I was getting the info from just conspirecy sites.

And the one that was actually from a Mason said (drumroll!!!!) that Scottish Rite Masonry actually came from France! Wow! Whoda thunk it? Well, me, I guess, but then, I am actually a Mason and have actually studied it, and I'm not just here to smear its name in the mud, like some people I could mention...

But is it just me or is there no accurate account of history here? Do we not have a good true account not associated with the winning side anywhere. The one unfortunate thing is that history is always writen by the winners, and if a secret society wants to stay that way they will.

This is one of the bigger loads of bull it has ever been my displeasure to come across. If history is always written by the "winners" (whatever that means) to their advatage, then I guess we can't trust any history at all, eh? We might as well throw it all away! Napolean? Actually a third-rate pillow manufacturer from Moldavia! Shaka Zulu? Why, he wrote "Die Zauberflaute." The Titanic? It was a kind of melon, popular in the 14th century!

If you've made your mind up that no history can be trusted except the history you want to hear, aren't you the one who's trying to cover up the past?

I am not aginst Freemasons or the other groups like Rosicrucians, or golden dawn or other alchemy, astrology based teaching groups. I am just aginst being used as a game piece in these powerful mens games!!

What games? I myself like monopoly on occasion, but I don't play against people who like to slander my Order.

This is the classical style of the Paranoid Anti-Masonic rant: "I don't dislike Freemasons, I just don't like the way they control my life."

"How do you know they control your life?"

"Well, I read this book here that said they do, you see!"

Of course, the next think we expect is the tired old saw about how "normal" Freemasons are good, decent people, but the "Higher Level" Freemasons are actually bad, evil reptoid Satanists who want to eat babies and shave your cat!

I don't like the idea that science is being run by a bunch of corupt men that want to control peoples minds to make them submissive to their plans.

Well, I'm one of those durn scienticians too! Unfortunately, the only thing I'd like to see controlled are auto insurance rates (they're crazy up here, and I'm a first year driver (Yes, I started very late in life... don't judge me, love me!))

I don't want to think that my kids are going to live in a world where the freedom of thought is forbidden. I am knee deep in the field of psychology

I can smell what you're knee-deep in, and it isn't psychology.

Beside that little mal mot, however, I'd like to ask you "who do you think wants to remove your children's "freedom of thought?"" I'm a High-School teacher in training, and I'd love it if my students had freedom of thought (at least enough so that they might think "Hey, maybe studying a reasonable amount of time every night might be more rewarding than trying to dress like Brittany Spears, talking on my mobile phone, or spending valuable study time working so I can afford to dress like Brittany Spears and talk on my mobile phone!). Masonry has taught me, from start to finish, to respect people's freedom of thought, and to educate children to have freedom of thought.

and I can see how power can be a suductive force, in essence the dark side. But I know not all men involved in thtese groups are corupt,

Mirabile dictu! Here we go! See, "normal" Freemasons are just fine, but it's those "Corrupt Higher-Ups" who are really pulling the strings, even though all normal Freemasons, all Grand Officers, and everyone holding any office in Freemasonry know nothing about these "Higher-Ups."

and by no means am I saying they are corupt just becuase they are men. I personally think if women were in charge there would be even more problems. We would end up with women like Hillary Clinton in charge of things and then we would all be socialists.

OMG!!! NOT --- SOCIALISM!!!! We wouldn't want to live in a country like Sweden, or, God forbid, Canada. Wait! I live in Canada! And I quite like it here! How could that be???

The one thing I think the power hungery people forget is history, OUT OF NEED COMES INVENTION!!!

Wait a minute, hold on... so here's your syllogism:

p1: All history is written by the "winners," i.e. the powerful.
p2: The one thing powerful people forget is history.
C: I am a silly goose.

?



[edit on 19-6-2004 by AlexKennedy]

I hope my brethren here will forgive me if they think I am revealing too much.
For the sake of those who are truly interested in knowing what Freemasonry is about, (not those who are just filled with hatred and cannot spout anything else or learn anything new) I will post the first 2 questions posed to a candidate immediately upon entering the lodge for initiation. In fact, it is exactly what is written on the petition that is anyone's for the asking.

WM: Is it of your own free will and accord that you come here to be made a Mason.

Candidate: Yes

WM: Is it not rather out of idle curiosity, over persuasion of friends, mercernary, or some othe improper motive.

Candidate: No

That sums it up. IT IS COMPLETELY VOLUNTARY. In fact, we don't want people who are not following their own free will. (like the people here who grab mis-quotes from hate sites and fall for them hook, line and sinker)

Also, just before the oath is administered -

SW: You are about to take the obligation of an Entered Apprentice Mason, in which I assure you there is nothing derogatory to your religion, your morals or the laws of your country, the penalty of the obligation is of ancient origin and symbollic only.

I am a 32nd degree mason in Pennsylvania. I am currently Senior Warden of my blue lodge (second time around) and a Shriner. My father is the lodge chaplain and also a United Methodist minister. I have been very involved in every masonic organization to which I belong. I am still waiting for the "free ride" so many of you think we get. Truth be known, most mason's ethics wouldn't permit them to even accept a "free ride" or special treatment if offered. THAT is why so many masons are also leaders in our society. NOT favors or magic. Just an honest work ethic.

I want those of you who really desire knowledge to know that all these anti-masons here either don't know what they are talking about or are outright liars. It is sad that some will say anything to keep from admitting they are wrong.
I find the ignorance, or deciet, of the posters here very disturbing. I will not debate any issues with them as they are not even being honest with themselves so they cannot be honest with us.
I am a proud member of the lodge and see no need to debate against outright lies anymore than I would argue with someone who claims water isn't wet.
But I would be happy to provide information to someone who genuinely desires to increase their knowledge.

Originally posted by MOOR45
A link to an article is not necessarily "evidence" obviously because alot of that article is errant. If all you want me to do is provide links I can do that but I really dont like to do research based on the internet strictly, hence the books I listed.

It helps. As for the books you listed? I see only 5. Two are dictionaries, one is HBHG and the others are Bloodline of the Holy Grail and The Forgotten Monarchy of Scotland. Hardly literature for basing a concrete theory on.
What you are saying is that masonry has a history that correlates to your way of thinking. You keep going on and on about the evidence that you have presented, the research you have done and the literature that you have offered here, yet this is all that you could come up with?

As masons, we are all aware that masonry has a long and diverse history and that it draws upon rituals and traditions from thoughout the world. But as ML said: there is no proof of our Craft's origins. We may merely suspect.

But what you have done is say that it was created by Moorish culture and then refused to elaborate on the issue when challenged, other to answer that you have studied the subject and that you are therefore correct. I'm sorry, life doesn't work that way - you make a claim and you have to back it up. Saying that you can't be bothered to give links is a pretty poor excuse. Wether or not you like the internet is immaterial - I don't know if you've noticed but you've used it to push your theory.

If you want to look on the internet you will find the rituals of freemasonry. Freemasons and their rituals are not secret but and this might be hard to accept by some people. Freemasons do have the right of privacy and in the degrees/ grades of Freemasonry there are the means by which a Freemason will know another Freemason. There is nothing sinister about this aspect of the craft but it is a tradition that we as Freemasons have pledged to keep private and only for our Brethren. The philosophy of the degrees/grades is open for reasoned discussion.

As Freemasons we are not allowed to discuss politics in open Lodge. Politics is not a subject that is not permitted by the governing bodies that manage Freemasonry. We are a society of men who make good men better ones. There are no Devils in Freemasonry or Satanic worship. As Freemasons we believe in a Supreme being who created the Universe. In my years as a Freemason I have met many friends all over the world and enjoy the companionship of my Brethren.

Brother Gerard

Originally posted by AlexKennedy

OMG!!! NOT --- SOCIALISM!!!! We wouldn't want to live in a country like Sweden, or, God forbid, Canada. Wait! I live in Canada! And I quite like it here! How could that be???

ROFL...my sentiments exactly. Most Americans really have no idea as to what socialism really is. They�ve been snowed by capitalist industry and commercialism to the point that they would sacrifice their children to protect them from the ominous word �socialism�...without even giving a thought as to it may just be socialism that would set them free.

The ultra-wealthy have always demonized socialism....which is only natural; they do not want to share wealth. Since these guys have the money, they control the media, the mainstream political parties, etc. And Americans fall for their lines every time.

But let�s look at what socialism really is:

1. Free public education. We already have this form of socialism, but it is being attacked on a daily basis by the wealthy elite. They continue to push for their school �vouchers� programs, diverting public money to private institutions, whose curriculums are subject to nothing but their own propaganda. This also bleeds the public education system of necessary funds, leaving schools in lower income areas crippled, while our tax dollars fund education for the children of the wealthy...this leaves the wealthy with even more money to exploit everyone else. No one is really free unless they are educated, and knowledge is truly power. Free public education (which is socialism) helps guarantees our freedom. Support it, and don�t let them take it away from our children.

2. Another form of socialism is public health care. We do not currently have this in the US. Canada does. The poor Canadian elderly do not have to choose between medicine and food. Our own elderly in the US have to make this choice daily, since they can�t afford both. In the US, the practice of medicine isn�t about healing, it�s about profiteering. I don�t care what sort of lies are being spewed from the right wing, this situation is nothing short of shameful. The USA recognizes the right to free public education; the only reason it doesn�t recognize free public healthcare is because it would end profits for the multi-billion dollar drug corporations. Why sekhmetgoddess would support the corporations over the needy, I have no idea, but I�d vote for Hillary in a heartbeat.

3. Socialism entails equality and democracy, which are opposed to the basic tenets of unrestricted capitalism. Capitalism, by its very nature, establishes a caste system. The entire system is illusionary. The wealthy are not �better� than the poor, and most have become wealthy by exploiting the poor. God did not give us our natural resources so that a handful of billionaires could claim �ownership� of it, and profit off of it from the rest of us. Same thing with �private property�. We are children of the Earth, and no one �owns� it...She owns us. But men claim to own �private property�, while denying it to the poor. But the earth belongs to all equally.

Sorry for the ranting, but I just don�t understand why Americans who would benefit so much from democratic socialism are so frightened by it. It just goes to show how tightly in control of America the elite really are, having so well programmed the public to stand up for the benefits of the wealthy instead of their own. Some may call this �the American way�, but I disagree...I call it mental slavery.

Fiat Lvx.


[edit on 19-6-2004 by Masonic Light]

Sorry Masonic Light. You may need a new dictionary.
You're confusing social programs with socialism.
Socialism is Government ownership of businesses NOT free enterprise with some needed social programs thrown in.

Here's Meriam-Webster 3 descriptions:

1 : any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods
2 a : a system of society or group living in which there is no private property b : a system or condition of society in which the means of production are owned and controlled by the state
3 : a stage of society in Marxist theory transitional between capitalism and communism and distinguished by unequal distribution of goods and pay according to work done

Read each one again and see if that is really what you want.
Not being allowed to make my own choices about my own business. Or being told that I would better serve the collective in another job whether I like it or not.
That's about the worst "mental slavery" I can imagine.
And if you actually look at the multi-billionaires, they are often very supportive of socialism. They know they won't lose what they have as long as they control the socialism. It's not hard to list quite a few. It is true that the mere millionaires, who worked hard for what they got may not want to give it up.
Me, I am self-employed after 20 years experiencing the closest thing to socialism in America. Military. But then I loved every minute of it so maybe you would also be happy to be "set free" by the government controlling everything you do.
It's a slippery slope.

Originally posted by Masonic Light
But let�s look at what socialism really is:

1. Free public education. We already have this form of socialism, but it is being attacked on a daily basis by the wealthy elite. They continue to push for their school �vouchers� programs, diverting public money to private institutions, whose curriculums are subject to nothing but their own propaganda.

Well, indeed. As a teacher (in training, at least) I strongly support free Education. We have separate school boards up here (for example, in my city, we have a "Public" and a "Catholic" school board), but actually some people in my province are trying to pull it further and establish alternative school systems as well. I don't know how to feel on this issue: on the one hand, alternate systems allow people to teach their children in the manner they please (the curricula are still subject to Provincial approval, of course), on the other hand, the money does come from the public. But, up here, when you pay your municipal taxes, you select which school board you want your tax money to go to -- so it's not really taking money from my pocket to support boards with which I disagree.

2. Another form of socialism is public health care. We do not currently have this in the US. Canada does.

Ah, I wish it were so the way it was in, say, the early 1990s. These days, we see a lot of slow movement to what we call up here a "two-tiered" healt system. That means that the public system allows you to get standard treatment, but if you're willing to pay more, you can get certain services faster or better. I don't like it so much, myself. Still, it is the case that most ordinary trips to the doctor are free up here (you do have to pay a medical coverage fee to the province, which is based in part on your income... for example, since I have no income this year, I could in theory pay nothing... but I choose to pay according to my last year's income (because I feel it is dishonest to say I have no money, since I have some "income" from the sale of my primary residence), so I pay $17 a month. If I was above the cut-off for "poor people," I'd pay something like $50 a month. Anyway, the system is even more complicated that I've explained here, but it's certainly easy to work within.

Let me give an example: I recently had a benign growth under my eye, and a funny red patch under the other (I assure you, I'm plenty handsome despite all that ) Cost for two visits to the doctor, including cutting of the growth (and he's an artist, let me tell you, I barely felt anything, and you can't even see a mark a week later) $0. Cost for the Cortisone cream for the patch under my eye? $11. On the other hand, my mother had a little bit of pre-pneumonia, and had to buy Biaxin (an antibiotic). Cost? $80!!!! She'll get most of that back on her health plan, but as you can see, we still have a lot of cost for perscription medications. On the other hand, my Province has the lowest amount of health coverage for "average" citizens (health and education are controlled by the province in my country).

The poor Canadian elderly do not have to choose between medicine and food.

This is typically true. People who are in dire enough straits that they might have trouble with basic necessities are generally covered for medications, even in my province. But I assume the same must be true in your country. I mean, I doubt your country just lets people die if they don't have enough money, no?

3. Socialism entails equality and democracy, which are opposed to the basic tenets of unrestricted capitalism.

I think an even better word might be "equity." That is, equality generally means that everyone has equal access to the same resources. What socialism stands for is everyone having access to the resources they need to lead a decent life. So, a poor person pays less taxes, and has more access to social programs than a rich person -- because it is assumed that the rich person will be able to take care of themselves in this regard. I remember it working very well in the early 1990s, but lately my country has taken up many changes based on the American economy, and this is just my perception, but people seem more mean-spirited, there's CERTAINLY more crime, and, if you can believe it, there have been racial incidents. That's something that was very rare last decade, as far as I remember.

I have nothing at all against the rich. If they work hard and wish to be rich, more power to them. Socialism does not stand behind disempowering the rich; Socialism stands behind empowering the poor. Socialism, for example, might say "It's perfectly OK if that factory owner wants to have a 30' yacht and a 20,000 sq. ft. mansion, and watch gold-covered dancing girls every night. But we must make sure that his workers, and those unable to work, can at least get a roof over their head and food in their belly." Socialism is not against the "incentive" you Americans treasure... it's simply against "incentive" at any cost. After all, the government was originally formed to serve and protect the people, no? If it fails to increase the happiness of its people, it is a failure.

Sorry, Urako, but you've misinterpreted the dictionary definition.

Of course Socialism means government ownership of certain businesses. Businesses like the health industry and education. Any governmental ownership of any means of production is Socialism, by which standard even the U.S. has Socialist aspects. Canada is generally considered to be a Socialist country, because many aspects of our society are government-owned, but our small-businesspeople fare just fine. No one wants to take away your business, Urako... we're talking about Big Health and the like.

I find it quite strange that many of you people keep claiming that all of the so-called secrets are just simple ways to identify another mason, yet all of you also claim that any mason would be more than happy to identify himself as one. If that's the HUGE secret masons have been trying to hide and made them be accused of such "false" things, then why not simply PROVE THEM WRONG? It's quite simple, and according to yourselves most of you won't even mind. Saying that is a tradition is probably the lamest excuse you could think of and I certainly don't believe that keeping a tradition is worth the trouble.

Another aspect I find strange is that every argument that is presented against masons, is debunked most of the times simply by saying "that's not true" without backing up any statements. How are we supposed to take your word when you fail, not only prove your statements, but also to back them up? Some things just don't add up and all of you so-called freemasons are only contrubuting in making it worse.

Originally posted by Urako
You're confusing social programs with socialism.
Socialism is Government ownership of businesses NOT free enterprise with some needed social programs thrown in.

All social programs are forms of socialism. If we look at western democratic nations (like Canada, as Bro. Alex mentioned, as well as France, Spain, etc.) where strong Socialist Parties have introduced legislation, we can see clearly their results.
FDR, although technically of the Democratic Party, was an ideological socialist, and the New Deal, which pulled the US out of the Great Depression, was democratic socialist enterprise. This also protected us from forms of dictatorial socialism, such as Soviet communism, by helping the lower income workers, instead of turning them into violent revolutionaries.

Bro. Alex:

In the US, doctors are required to treat patience with no money and no insurance, but only in emergency situation, where the patient�s life is in immediate risk.
In our country, most Americans have contradictory ideas. They want more social programs, but don�t want to pay higher taxes. Many do not seem to grasp that tax dollars pay for police, libraries, education, and could also pay for health care. This would require only a slight increase in taxes, but would save them plenty in the long run when they themselves required medical treatment and prescription medicines routinely in old age, and would practically eliminate the scams currently run by insurance companies if they are paying privately. Those whose employer�s pay premiums are somewhat better off, but employers are not required to do this.

Recently, I read an article where the author wrote something to the effect that, to many Americans, free public health care to Iraqis is �good policy�, while free public health care to Americans is �socialism�. I think that says it all.

Fiat Lvx.

Well, right up front, I must admit that I am a Christian leftist, which is to say that I believe that the most important function of society is to care for its members, regardless of their individual nature, but that simultaneously I don't mind hard-working or clever or lucky individuals getting ahead -- i.e. I belive in a strong government helping the people, but not an extinguishing of individual "incentive."

Anyway, what I want to say is this: as you know, Canada has a higher tax rate (on average) than America. There's no doubting this. Some people dislike this, but it's still quite possible to get obscenely wealthy as a Canadian (take Conrad Black, for example). The fact of the matter is, Canada recently privatised and deregulated a number of aspects of our society, and what has been the result?

Deregulated power in Alberta: power bills have jumped astronomically. Many families have had trouble paying their power bills.

Deregulated trade practices: our cities have been overrun by multi-nationals like Wal-Mart. Fortunately, there are some who will not shop there (I won't, for example), and Canadian independants like Army & Navy are still doing OK (I really groove on the A&N, though, so maybe I'm biased )

Deregulated and privatised airlines: Most of our airlines have been going belly-up. The price of a ticket for me to visit Victoria (an exquisitely beautiful town on the west coast, one province over from me) on Victoria Day weekend (the weekend when we celebrate the birthday of HRH Queen Victoria) was $800 (!). Service is terrible, and many of the planes have been converted from big, comfortable jets to pathetic, lurchy, awkward props.

All this and, guess what? Taxes for the individual citizen have NOT GONE DOWN!!! Why? Because the tax breaks are going to large companies (if they're Canadian, I guess that's not so bad) and multinationals who threaten to leave the country if we don't drop their taxes and allow them to mistreat workers (boo!)

Listen, I'm not trying to say you should do things any differently in the States. It's your own country, you run it how you please (please stop dropping bombs on our friends, though... I know a sweet little girl (actually, she's probably a teen by now) named Marim in Iran, please don't hurt her, or her wonderful family). But please stop implying there's something wrong with us Socialist countries... we've been doing just fine for a long time.

Originally posted by Leveller

Originally posted by MOOR45
A link to an article is not necessarily "evidence" obviously because alot of that article is errant. If all you want me to do is provide links I can do that but I really dont like to do research based on the internet strictly, hence the books I listed.

It helps. As for the books you listed? I see only 5. Two are dictionaries, one is HBHG and the others are Bloodline of the Holy Grail and The Forgotten Monarchy of Scotland. Hardly literature for basing a concrete theory on.
What you are saying is that masonry has a history that correlates to your way of thinking. You keep going on and on about the evidence that you have presented, the research you have done and the literature that you have offered here, yet this is all that you could come up with?

As masons, we are all aware that masonry has a long and diverse history and that it draws upon rituals and traditions from thoughout the world. But as ML said: there is no proof of our Craft's origins. We may merely suspect.

But what you have done is say that it was created by Moorish culture and then refused to elaborate on the issue when challenged, other to answer that you have studied the subject and that you are therefore correct. I'm sorry, life doesn't work that way - you make a claim and you have to back it up. Saying that you can't be bothered to give links is a pretty poor excuse. Wether or not you like the internet is immaterial - I don't know if you've noticed but you've used it to push your theory.

I'm not correlating anything to my way of thinking. You say onl5 sources. If I gave you 20 it still wouldn't be enough. If you say there is no proof of your craft's origins, how can you stand on a square and say I;m wrong when you havent provided any material whatsoever. How could you when
you say there is no proof available? That's a lame argument in itself. And I did not use the internet to defend my point. I'm letting you know no to always use the internet as a means to garner research. Just likAlbert Pike's book has ben on the internet with several"adjustments". This has been confirmed by your own brothers. Everything is not on the net. This is your crqaft, aren't you a little interested in it's origin? Before you criticize look at the big picture. But since you like links I will see if I can find pics of the anicien Indian site present with it's own lodges. And you say two of the books are dictionaries? WHo are yo to criticize those book? If you dont agree you dont agree. But I provided literature that you dont like and I haven't provided you anything? Sounds like you are the one basing things on opinion. Which you are entitled to like everyone on this board. You have links or documentation on your claim show it or fall back. You havent even given one> Oh I forgot, there is no exact proof!

Originally posted by Masonic Light
2. In the US, the practice of medicine isn�t about healing, it�s about profiteering. I don�t care what sort of lies are being spewed from the right wing, this situation is nothing short of shameful. The USA recognizes the right to free public education; the only reason it doesn�t recognize free public healthcare is because it would end profits for the multi-billion dollar drug corporations. Why sekhmetgoddess would support the corporations over the needy, I have no idea, but I�d vote for Hillary in a heartbeat.

I knew the day would come when I would disagree with something you said, my dear ML! While I completely agree that the drug companies and the medical profession are into profits over healing, I disagree that Hillary is in any way, shape or form the answer to health care. Heaven save us if she even ran for the Oval Office. She is as much into the political game as any other big name politico. As I speak, her husband is doing the full 60 Minutes segment hawking his 900+ page book.

I am not willing to pay higher taxes to give health care to those without, while I still have to pay outrageous monthly amounts for MY health insurance. It would be nice, but the system is far too corrupt, on both sides of the aisle. I have heard there is a book out that tells how doctors have a quota system for operations. Judging by the number of hysterectomies performed, I can certainly see this might be true.

The medical profession does not have the wellness of the country at heart. They are aided and abetted by the drug companies. Along with the insurance companies. I do not think for a moment that Blue Cross will allow a plan to cover everyone, if it will take away from their bottom line.
The whole system needs to be changed. That will not happen. I see no possibility.

The free education system is also in a sad state. I live near enough to the City of Detroit to know that their education system is almost non-existant. But, the Superintendant has a newly remodeled office, while students lack books and supplies. I doubt Detroit is alone in this shame.
The State of Michigan had lottery tickets, casino revenues, and revenue sharing to help the schools. Where has the money disappeared to.
We have part-time State legislators, democrats and republicans, who get big salaries with great benefits and an awesome pension. Kinda reminds me of Nero and Rome while it burned.

Sorry for the rant. I could go on.

______________
I now return you to the forum thread--
Masons not a secret society,
already in progress

[edit on 20-6-2004 by DontTreadOnMe]

Originally posted by DontTreadOnMe
I am not willing to pay higher taxes to give health care to those without, while I still have to pay outrageous monthly amounts for MY health insurance.

You wouldn�t have to. The idea behind public health care is that medical insurance would be eliminated. Instead of some people paying outrageous premiums for coverage, while many cannot afford to be covered at all, the social program would eliminate the private industry, and pay health care professionals with money derived from taxation. Although taxes would increase, it would benefit our citizens financially because the higher tax would still be less expensive than insurance.
If we can spend billions of dollars per week in taxpayer dollars to build weapons used for slaughter, certainly we could spare a few dollars to actual help, instead of murder, people.

The medical profession does not have the wellness of the country at heart. They are aided and abetted by the drug companies. Along with the insurance companies. I do not think for a moment that Blue Cross will allow a plan to cover everyone, if it will take away from their bottom line.
The whole system needs to be changed.

Which is precisely my point. Insurance companies would certainly oppose public health care programs, but I say that�s their problem. They�ve screwed the American public for far too long, and it�s time for change. Both the Green Party and the Socialist Party have an almost identical plan to introduce public health care, and I think Americans should listen.

The free education system is also in a sad state.

It�s not perfect, but it�s in no way as bad as the right wing extremists currently in charge of our nation would have us believe. Their ultimate goal is the complete destruction of the New Deal, and all programs that are �socialist�. Their funds come from special interests, which are insurance and drug companies, private schools, billionaire corporations, etc. These people would profit if social programs were killed.

So-called �school vouchers�, which are being pushed by the Bush administration, is the largest attack on education in American history. These �vouchers� take steal money from the public schools, and put it into private schools...schools which almost always have a dumbed-down curriculum, teaching only what the administrators want people to believe.

Public education was in excellent health until the first attack from the Reagan administration, and then the elder Bush. Under the Clinton administration, public education was beginning to rebound, but the junior Bush cut the extra funding for schools, and diverted this money to fund military operations. This is coupled with his so-called �No Child Left Behind Act�, which presents purposely unrealistic guidelines for public school teachers, which has resulted in a great reduction of the number of teachers in the schools, with the classroom size growing.
This farcical piece of legislation does not apply to private schools, who may hire whomever, and how many, they wish. The result of this is an overcrowded public school system with a lack of money to hire needed instructors, outrageous qualifications for many instructors, and classrooms growing to size where there can be no needed teacher-student interaction.
Then, they claim the public schools have �failed�, and are trying to push private education upon the public. The whole thing has been orchestrated by the �ruling class�, and stinks to high heaven.
This November, it is imperative that Americans send these guys on a permanent vacation.

Fiat Lvx.

ML, I would like to see that health plan work. And, for much less per month than I am paying now.
Now, we only have to figure out how to convince the drug companies, health insurance companies, AMA and all their lobbyists that it is the best thing for the nation

I can also see why Masonic Lodges don't talk about religion or politics


[edit on 21-6-2004 by DontTreadOnMe]

Originally posted by SmaSh
I find it quite strange that many of you people keep claiming that all of the so-called secrets are just simple ways to identify another mason, yet all of you also claim that any mason would be more than happy to identify himself as one. If that's the HUGE secret masons have been trying to hide and made them be accused of such "false" things, then why not simply PROVE THEM WRONG? It's quite simple, and according to yourselves most of you won't even mind. Saying that is a tradition is probably the lamest excuse you could think of and I certainly don't believe that keeping a tradition is worth the trouble.

Another aspect I find strange is that every argument that is presented against masons, is debunked most of the times simply by saying "that's not true" without backing up any statements. How are we supposed to take your word when you fail, not only prove your statements, but also to back them up? Some things just don't add up and all of you so-called freemasons are only contrubuting in making it worse.

I have to agree with how some members say somehting is not true as an answer. This is what I mentioned before. Some Masons here have given good responses but some have taken alot of thing I feel too personal and answered with that line as the be all to end all.

Originally posted by DontTreadOnMe
Now, we only have to figure out how to convince the drug companies, health insurance companies, AMA and all their lobbyists that it is the best thing for the nation

They already know it, but don�t care. The only way to implement public health care is by electing to federal and state government those candidates who support it. We don�t have to ask the drug industries for their permission.


Fiat Lvx.

I'm sorry if it took so long to find this but here it goes. Masonic Light/Alex have you ever seen this article? It is entitled "Secret Societies in the Ancient Americas". It states how Ancient Masonci Lodges have been discovered amomg the American Indians found at an Anasazi (I spelled it wrong earlier:wow archaelogical site 80% identical to Masonic Lodges in America now."In the ancient lodge...there were fifty rocks and clay tablets, which he dated 1000 and 1200 A.D, written what appears to be Arabic...". Does this seem like it may be the same form of Masonry which you currently practice in the Scottish Rite?

I had my first investigative committee meeting at my home this evening,they are not a secret society, they place as much emphasis on the fact they are not secret, as on belief in a greater power.