Masons not a secret society

Originally posted by AlexKennedy
Perhaps you should do the "reading first, asking questions later" I explicitly said that it was none of my business whether you buy a blank fez or not, and that I would defend to the death your right to buy a blank fez. I think it's a great idea to buy a blank fez, as I think they look very nice.

As for the hat issue, here's what my old friend "The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language, Forth Edition says the word "hat" means:

1. A covering for the head, especially one with a shaped crown and brim.
2.
1. A head covering of distinctive color and shape worn as a symbol of office.
2. The office symbolized by the wearing of such a head covering.
3. A role or office symbolized by or as if by the wearing of different hats: wears two hats one as parent and one as corporate executive.

So a Fez isn't a head covering, not even one worn as a symbol of office? Wow.

As for the Ottoman empire, it was actually a required part of the curriculum WAAAAAY back when I was in High School. I always found the Ottoman Empire quite fascinating. Don't know what you're trying to imply, though. The Ottoman Turks really weren't in the habit of wearing Fezzes except as regular hats, as far as I'm aware. And although I think there were many fine and wonderful Turks, I'm not sure what they have to do specifically with the history of Masonry.

You love the dictionary but you fail to understand a dictionary only gives limited colloquial definitions. It doesn't always explain a culture or tradition of a people. Let me ask you a question. Do you know where freemasonry started? Give me the very beginning please.

And you are quite wrong about Turks and Fezzes but I can again point you to several literature on the subject.

Originally posted by MOOR45
The Black Law Dictionary 4th edition describes an African American as a slave. Do most so called black fit in this category? Dont us a dictionary for one point of reference or what you learned in 4th grade.

Why be so arrogant? First of all an African America is also listed as:

Af�ri�can A�mer�i�can (plural Af�ri�can A�mer�i�cans)
noun
American of African descent: an American of African descent

There are many definitions for this phrase... Why try to start stuff here. And, as for the African American Listing that I just entered... Yes, most do fit this profile.... You just picking out something to fight about is just absurd ... Trolls

[edit on 17-6-2004 by JCMinJapan]

Originally posted by MOOR45
Black is an adjective not a proper noun, so I can't be that.

Actually, Black is a proper noun. Let's haul out "American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition" and look up the noun cases of the word "Black."

1.
1. The achromatic color value of minimum lightness or maximum darkness; the color of objects that absorb nearly all light of all visible wavelengths; one extreme of the neutral gray series, the opposite being white. Although strictly a response to zero stimulation of the retina, the perception of black appears to depend on contrast with surrounding color stimuli.
2. A pigment or dye having this color value.
2. Complete or almost complete absence of light; darkness.
3. Clothing of the darkest hue, especially such clothing worn for mourning.
4. often Black
1. A member of a racial group having brown to black skin, especially one of African origin.
2. An American descended from peoples of African origin having brown to black skin; an African American.
5. Something that is colored black.
6. Games.
1. The black-colored pieces, as in chess or checkers.
2. The player using these pieces.

I think definition 4.2 would apply to you, no?

Anyway, if you're Black, why do you call yourself a Moor? To be frank, I think that Africans have more to be proud of than Moors (could be wrong, and these kind of comparisons are very difficult). After all, Ethiopia was an African Kingdom, and they are at least believed by some to be the final resting place of the Ark of the Covenant. Carthage was an African Kingdom, and they almost destroyed Rome. Rome! The Big Boy of the Ancient world! Egypt was an African Kingdom, and they pretty well had the first "big" culture (Yes, the Mesopotamian cultures may have "arisen" first, but, come on, Egypt built architecture that's STILL around, for goodness' sake!). Why call yourself a Moor rather than standing up as a member of the continent that originated humanity, not to mention (probably) monotheism, ship-building, etc., etc.?

[edit on 17-6-2004 by AlexKennedy]

Originally posted by JCMinJapan

Originally posted by MOOR45
The Black Law Dictionary 4th edition describes an African American as a slave. Do most so called black fit in this category? Dont us a dictionary for one point of reference or what you learned in 4th grade.

Why be so arrogant? First of all an African America is also listed as:

Af�ri�can A�mer�i�can (plural Af�ri�can A�mer�i�cans)
noun
American of African descent: an American of African descent

There are many definitions for this phrase... Why try to start stuff here. And, as for the African American Listing that I just entered... Yes, most do fit this profile.... You picking out something to fight about is just absurd

Calm down before you interject. Iwas only usind the definitions as an example to show how using a dictionary alone is not good enough for an overall description. We are having a civilized conversation and are not fighting at all if you read the posts carefully. Please. And also let me explain to you that all African Americans are not decendants of Africa. African is a continent not a nation. America is also a continent. The United States of America is the nation. So therefore I am a citizen of the United States not African American. There is not arguments here so please dont hype anything up.

Originally posted by MOOR45
You love the dictionary but you fail to understand a dictionary only gives limited colloquial definitions. It doesn't always explain a culture or tradition of a people.

I love the dictionary when we're talking about the meaning of words. It's impossible to have intelligent conversation if the interlocutors disagree about the meaning of the terms they're using.

I gave you the dictionary meaning of "hat" here because you told me that the Fez is not a hat. I urge you to please explain to me how the Fez is not a hat. I happen to think it is a very very nice looking hat, in fact, but that's just my taste. Do you find my taste in hats offensive?

Let me ask you a question. Do you know where freemasonry started? Give me the very beginning please.

I couldn't say. If you know, I urge you, once again, to please provide us with dependable, solid evidence backing up your claim. I mean, if I wanted to, I could claim that the ancient Irish invented Freemasonry as a way of securing free beer for people with the last name "Kennedy." But I don't have evidence of it, so until I did, it would just be racist pandering. Do you have any evidence for whatever claim you're presenting?

Well, meaning can be brought into any definition in the dictionary. Now, having the phrase african american in the dictionary is a proper conept. Why... well.. for one thing.. They are descendants of Africa and are American Citizens. So, hence ... African American.....

Now, if a person was black and their ancestors did not come from Africa, then they could not be called African American.....

Actually, if we want to get real technical... any descendant of Africa... so a South African descendant that is white, asian, etc etc could be called African American as well.

Originally posted by AlexKennedy

Originally posted by MOOR45
Black is an adjective not a proper noun, so I can't be that.

Actually, Black is a proper noun. Let's haul out "American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition" and look up the noun cases of the word "Black."

1.
1. The achromatic color value of minimum lightness or maximum darkness; the color of objects that absorb nearly all light of all visible wavelengths; one extreme of the neutral gray series, the opposite being white. Although strictly a response to zero stimulation of the retina, the perception of black appears to depend on contrast with surrounding color stimuli.
2. A pigment or dye having this color value.
2. Complete or almost complete absence of light; darkness.
3. Clothing of the darkest hue, especially such clothing worn for mourning.
4. often Black
1. A member of a racial group having brown to black skin, especially one of African origin.
2. An American descended from peoples of African origin having brown to black skin; an African American.
5. Something that is colored black.
6. Games.
1. The black-colored pieces, as in chess or checkers.
2. The player using these pieces.

I think definition 4.2 would apply to you, no?

Anyway, if you're Black, why do you call yourself a Moor? To be frank, I think that Africans have more to be proud of than Moors (could be wrong, and these kind of comparisons are very difficult). After all, Ethiopia was an African Kingdom, and they are at least believed by some to be the final resting place of the Ark of the Covenant. Carthage was an African Kingdom, and they almost destroyed Rome. Rome! The Big Boy of the Ancient world! Egypt was an African Kingdom, and they pretty well had the first "big" culture (Yes, the Mesopotamian cultures may have "arisen" first, but, come on, Egypt built architecture that's STILL around, for goodness' sake!). Why call yourself a Moor rather than standing up as a member of the continent that originated humanity, not to mention (probably) monotheism, ship-building, etc., etc.?

[edit on 17-6-2004 by AlexKennedy]

Moor is not a race but a culture. I t predates what you think is the beginning of the (Moors of Spain). However the Moors have a history of different names not just Moor. And all humanity was not just from Africa. Keep in mind the continent shift. Archaelogical evidence has proved this. Egypt is not the only land with pyramids. The pyramids in South and central America are four time larger thatn the one in Gaza and older. What does that mean? Obviously people were here on this continent as well. Second, black is not a proper noun if used to describe a color. You cant be Black and African American. Black is not a race. The term only originated here in the United States in the mid to late 1600's. Then blacks were called Moors Black a Moor, among other descriptions. Dont believe me look up the Virginia Black Codes.

Originally posted by MOOR45
I was only usind the definitions as an example to show how using a dictionary alone is not good enough for an overall description.

Still waiting for you to show that, by the way... You claimed that "Black" is not a proper noun... and I presented what I believe are cases where it is a proper noun. Do you have a rebuttal, or may we assume that "Black" is in fact a proper noun?

We are having a civilized conversation and are not fighting at all if you read the posts carefully.

We were? I could have sworn that you implied I was a racist a few posts ago, and for my part, I'm not to happy about your contention that you know more about Masonry and "higher degrees" than most Masons.

And also let me explain to you that all African Americans are not decendants of Africa.

Um... how can that be? An African American is defined as someone who has at least some ancestors who were from Africa. So, all African Americans are descended from someone in Africa.

African is a continent not a nation.

Couldn't agree more! I don't like it when people treat Africa as if it were a country, but this is not one of those cases.

America is also a continent.

You're the one who likes "colloquial use," no? Colloquially, "America" is used to mean "The United States of America." I don't like it any more than you, Bub, as I'm from Canada, but I admit it is how people talk.

The United States of America is the nation. So therefore I am a citizen of the United States not African American.

I would contend that you are both. But, Self-Identification is absolutely the way of things, so I will gladly never refer to you again as an "African American," if you so wish.

Originally posted by AlexKennedy

Originally posted by MOOR45
You love the dictionary but you fail to understand a dictionary only gives limited colloquial definitions. It doesn't always explain a culture or tradition of a people.

I love the dictionary when we're talking about the meaning of words. It's impossible to have intelligent conversation if the interlocutors disagree about the meaning of the terms they're using.

I gave you the dictionary meaning of "hat" here because you told me that the Fez is not a hat. I urge you to please explain to me how the Fez is not a hat. I happen to think it is a very very nice looking hat, in fact, but that's just my taste. Do you find my taste in hats offensive?

Let me ask you a question. Do you know where freemasonry started? Give me the very beginning please.

I couldn't say. If you know, I urge you, once again, to please provide us with dependable, solid evidence backing up your claim. I mean, if I wanted to, I could claim that the ancient Irish invented Freemasonry as a way of securing free beer for people with the last name "Kennedy." But I don't have evidence of it, so until I did, it would just be racist pandering. Do you have any evidence for whatever claim you're presenting?

You say to provide proof but everything you have mentioned hasn't been backed up with a reference. I told you I can give you books to buy and read at your leisure. If you are a Mason, you should be telling me, not me telling you. But I can do that if you dont know which I find strange. Also the dictionary is not used as a standard across the board. In a court of law a legal dictionary is used, and the terms you stated from the American Heritage Dictionary are completely different. In Black's Law Dictionary (and no he is not black!) it states a Black Muslim as a member that followed Elijah Muhammed for black supremacy. I bet you wont find that in your dictionary. Want to know the term for God in law?

Originally posted by MOOR45
Moor is not a race but a culture. I t predates what you think is the beginning of the (Moors of Spain). However the Moors have a history of different names not just Moor.

Sorry, but this is, to me, just specious reasoning. By your logic, I could call myself an "Atlantean," and claim a long unrevealed history which proves that I am indeed an Atlantean. Then, I could go on to claim that as an Atlantean, I am the rightful owner of all coastal cities, and cry "racism!" when someone tried to stop me evicting everyone from Vancouver.

If you're going to make words not mean anything anymore, then you can't use those same words to bolster an argument. If you want "Moor" to mean precisely whatever you choose it to mean, then calling yourself a "Moor" doesn't mean anything!

The pyramids in South and central America are four time larger thatn the one in Gaza and older. What does that mean? Obviously people were here on this continent as well.

Yes, they were called Native Americans. Many of their decendants are still here, despite the efforts of some cruel and genocidal Governments that will remain nameless

Second, black is not a proper noun if used to describe a color.

Yes, and a cow isn't a quadruped if you cut off one of its legs. So what?

You cant be Black and African American.

You CAN'T?!?! How does that work? Let's take Kareem Abdul Jabbar. A very good man, and I think his new book is quite good (haven't read it myself, though). Let's see... dark skin... by God, I think he's Black! Now, where did his ancestors come from? Why, many of the came from Africa! That would make him, I guess, an "African American!"

Black is not a race.

Nobody here ever claimed it was!

The term only originated here in the United States in the mid to late 1600's. Then blacks were called Moors Black a Moor, among other descriptions. Dont believe me look up the Virginia Black Codes.

So, because people in the 1600s were ignorant, that means we should be too?

Moor guy
Actually, "America" is not a continant, and i know that it's common knowledge, and i don't mean to but into your discussion, but since "America" could stand for more than one continant, as there is North America, and South America, maybe since people are being so anal for details, they should be a little more specific, as i am sure that the people of South America would like to be known as their own seperate continant.

Sorry to inturde, sorry if my comment was assinine

Originally posted by MOOR45
You say to provide proof but everything you have mentioned hasn't been backed up with a reference.

I haven't presented any theses at all. I asked you (twice) now to tell me what you think the origins of Freemasonry are, since you claim to have special knowledge. I just asked you beforehand also to provide proof, since many people claim origins of Freemasonry without providing proof. Feel free to present a thesis any time you want.

I told you I can give you books to buy and read at your leisure.

How about simply telling me what you think, rather than making me waste my (non-existent) money on books I don't need to read?

If you are a Mason, you should be telling me, not me telling you.

Telling you WHAT?!?! If you mean the origins of Freemasonry, I told you that I don't know, and I doubt you know, either.

But I can do that if you dont know which I find strange.

Then, for the love of Sweet Little Tulips, do so!

In Black's Law Dictionary (and no he is not black!) it states a Black Muslim as a member that followed Elijah Muhammed for black supremacy. I bet you wont find that in your dictionary. Want to know the term for God in law?

From the American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language, Forth Edition:

Black Muslim
n.

A member of the Nation of Islam.

Webter's defines black as an adjective meanig of the darkest color. Also as a verb meaning to make black or defame. See why I say not to use dictionaries as the see all to be all? It takes other points of reference to reach a conclusion or at least a hypothesis. Yes we are having civilized conversation as can be expected on a forum. I didnt call you a racist but what you said was an ignorant statement that you apologized for and I thank you for that. When you said Moors refer to Europeans as white devils that came out of left field and that is when the discussion eleveated beyond it's original parameters. I dont calim to know more than Masons if you read my posts-all of them, I explain that. I can only feed what they give me. These are your brothers, maybe someone should talk to them. Unfortunately, people in this country take everything lightly. Names matter in law and the leagl term always supercedes the colloquial term if there is one for comparison. I've defended my self in court for tickets so I know the judge knows there are differences. All of my ancestors did not come from Africa. I am also of Native stock, celtic, etc. My father is from Nigeria so I know the difference as they see it. Egyptians consider themselves Arab not African. All of the North African countries feel the same way. Ask them in the street. My knowledge of Masons comes from Masons, research and my study as a student of both esoteric andnatural sciences, geometry, etc.

Originally posted by zoe_jane
Moor guy
Actually, "America" is not a continant, and i know that it's common knowledge, and i don't mean to but into your discussion, but since "America" could stand for more than one continant, as there is North America, and South America, maybe since people are being so anal for details, they should be a little more specific, as i am sure that the people of South America would like to be known as their own seperate continant.

Sorry to inturde, sorry if my comment was assinine

You are correct and I only used that for short type. And it's not anal to try a say things correctly for clarification.

OK, seriously, Moor45, if you feel that you are somehow a member of some "Moorish Culture," I'm all for that. But what is the origin of Masonry, according to your way of thinking? If you claim it is with the Moors, I'd like to see some evidence. Actually, for any claim you make, I'd like to see some evidence.

My research and corroboration of other Masons have come to show that it has origins dating before 6000 BC. It wasn't freemasonry as it is now in it's present form as it was slightly different. Also the Anakazi Indians have left behind archaelogical evidence of lodges before the Grand Lodge of England (did I say it right) came into existaence. And I'm sorry you feel reading books I suggest is a waste of time. I've never heard a statement like that but to each his own. Just trying to give you something to expand on. Reading never hurts. Besides the author can tell you better in his own words thatn me paraphrasing.

Originally posted by AlexKennedy
OK, seriously, Moor45, if you feel that you are somehow a member of some "Moorish Culture," I'm all for that. But what is the origin of Masonry, according to your way of thinking? If you claim it is with the Moors, I'd like to see some evidence. Actually, for any claim you make, I'd like to see some evidence.

You keep saying you want evidence but just stated earlier you dont need to waste time on books you dont need? I cant give you everything here.

"The pyramids in South and central America are four time larger thatn the one in Gaza and older"
this comment is not true, as the pyramids of egypt were during the III Dynasty, and were built during 2649-2150 BC, and the Olmecs were around 1400 BC. The Barra were around before then (1800 BC) but they did not have any pyramids to my knowledge.
if this does not pertain to this discussion board, than sorry, but when i see something that is being passed off as a fact, when it is not true, then i try to speak up.
maybe i'm wrong, i didn't really pay that much attention to my archaeology of Mesoamerica class.
if i'm wrong, i'll just blame it on the blonde hair

Okay you want documentation, here it is.
As far as freemasonry is concerned there is Holy Blood Holy Grail. Talks about the Knights templars who used certain Masonoc rites etc (c.1100-1600). The Forgotten Monarchy of Scotland. States how the Scottish Rite was created as a substructure of the Knights of Templar. Bloodline of the Holy Grail discusses the Rosicrucians which was responsible for the Order of the Croix and freemasonry in Britain 1550-1660. Several orders arose in the 14th and 15th centuries.