Another one bites the dust...

Originally posted by BlindWatcher1
If some drunk made a mistake and walked into your house one night by accident, it sounds as though you would shred and eat the poor soul. Do you ask questions before killing someone or do you just kill because you think you can?

If someone breaks into your home you don't ask questions (assuming you want to survive). And yes, it would be sad if an extremely drunk person broke in and was shot, but if they are that unaware of their surroundings they could have walked into the road and been hit by a car; equally sad.

That actually happened here recently, a guy moved into an apartment a couple of weeks before, came home very drunk and when he could not get the door unlocked entered "his" apartment via a window. He was shot to death. It was unfortunate, but well, it happens. And no the apartment resident did not face charges (they have common sense in Georgia).

Generally people know if you are a gun owner, at least close friends and family, and therefore they have common sense when it comes to entering the house when no one is home. When I visit a relatives house (and know they have guns) I make darn sure to announce my presence clearly before unlocking the door to enter. What is really sad is when some guys teenaged son/daughter sneaks back into the house at 3 am and gets shot because they trip an alarm, but that comes down to lack of common sense.

Bad things happen, and most of the bad things are very intentional, not weird accidents.


[edit on 23-5-2008 by Sonya610]

reply to post by Coshy


I watch "It takes a thief" every day. John has encountered dogs on several occasions and there has been a couple of incidents. One with the dogs outside and they meant business but John got around them. The other was a dog inside a house that seemed friendly but snapped at John as he moved by it while searching the house.

One poster said that people do not break in for fun but that's not true. Kids break in for fun and in fact both of the stars of that show admitted that when they were criminals (in their late teens) they broke into houses out of boredom and challenge.

Truth be told, there are ways to keep intruders out of your house without turning it into a fortress. If an intruder can't get in then you won't have to shoot him. I highly recommend watching that show, it appears on Discovery weekdays at 5:00pm eastern time.

Sonya610, I was just watching "Bladrunner" last night. I've never actually gotten thru the whole movie at one sitting though.

[edit on 23-5-2008 by jbondo]

Just a thought about everytime someone uses switzland as an example of gun ownership equalling less armed crime.

In my opinion it is more the fact that the culture and style of government significantly contribute to making sure people do not need to resort to crime, hence lower crime rates and hence lower armed offenses.

Quite simply, keep everyone educated, employed in decent jobs, well fed, sheltered and healthy and there is no need for crime!

Thats why everyone can own guns in switzland and not kill each other. They don't need them!

Plus they all do national service and get the same training in handling weapons and this is because they don't have a standing army, rather each person is a civilian militia member.

Thats my understanding of it all, if anyone has any thoughts please let me know.

reply to post by osirus82
Please don't bring up the, have you served your country. I served my country in Vietnam and yes truth be known I have taken the life of another, many, if you think that it matters. Does that ease the conscience of everyone who wants to get the chance to shoot and drag someone into their home. Hell, lets all arm ourself and just kill anyone who annoys us.

Do not think for a second that I would not protect my wife. Some of you folks will use any excuse you can come up with to use a firearm. If you have the need so badly, ("I'm not aiming this point at you personally, this is to every poster on this thread"), find someone you don't like ask them into your home and open fire.

To any of you who has not watched someone die in front of you, give it a try. Also just wound the intruder so you can get the feeling of what it is like to look into the eyes of the person begging for their life as you pull the trigger the second time. See for yourself how long the image remains in your thoughts. You people think it's so easy to kill someone do it and then come back here and tell me how you feel about it.

reply to post by BlindWatcher1
I NEVER said it was OK to kill someone for any reason! Where in any of my posts did you derive this?? The only time I've even hinted (OK flat out said it) it would be ok is if they are in my home and my family and myself are in danger. PERIOD!!

I don't mean to sound mean, but are you literate?? The thread is about HOME INVADERS getting their just reward. You've completely take the whole thread out of context. I'm not sitting on top of the mall in my sniper gear taking out little old ladies. But, you make it sound like I am.

reply to post by primamateria
We have the skinny on Switzerland directly from a Swed.

Originally posted by Swordbeast
I thinkt it's time to clear up some misconceptions here about Switzerland, the Swiss people and our relationship to our guns and our army.

Firstly, not everybody is required by law or otherwise to own a gun. In fact, gun ownership, carrying and transfer are regulated pretty strictly. I will go into detail about this later.

Secondly, not every man and woman HAVE to be in the army.
Fact is, in the year they turn 18, every man has to go to a 3 day test, called "Aushebung". This is not mandatory, but possible for females. There it's determined if your fit enough for the army and what branch of service fits your performance. Then we have 21 weeks of basic training, splittet in 6 weeks general training and the rest in branch specific training. Here, you receive your service rifle, gas mask and some other stuff that you keep in your home.

After basic training, we have a reoccuring term of service. Every year, soldiers have a so called "WK", "Wiederholungs-/ Weiterbildungskurs", basically a 3 week refresher and to get people fit with the updates in tech and tactics. You also have to go to the 300m shooting range once a year and shoot a mandatory program to prove that you can handle your gun. This goes on until you have served your mandatory days or have reached a certain age. Then you give your stuff back, and, depending on some conditions, you either keep your rifle, or give it back. If you fulfill the requirements to keep it, it will be "neutered", meaning no more fully automatic or 3round burst fire.

Between basic training and the repeating terms, you do in fact keep a fully automatic assault rifle at home. This has caused some unrest with our leftwingers, because some people abused their rifles for amok runs, passion-killings and suicides.
Thus it was decided in 2007 that the soldiers can't keep the ammo, but continue to keep the rifles. This has stirred up the rightwingers that see our democracy in danger since it looks like the politicians no longer trust their "subjects".
Ironically, shortly after the ammo started to be withheld after basic training, a deranged individual killed a young girl with his rifle and a round that he had stolen during service.

The future of having one's service rifle at home is currently being widely and passionately debated, and our relations to the EU influence this debate as well.

Now to our laws of privately owning a gun. There are currently two ways of lawfully obtaining a gun that is not explicitly restricted:
You buy it from another citizen with a paper contract that you have to keep for ten years. This will be changed this fall when the Schengen/Dublin treaties come to full work, then you will need a permit for this kind of transfer as well.
Or
You obtain a permit, for which you need an extensive background check and a chat with the local authorities. You will get get your permit IF you haven't been convicted of violent crime (not sure where the line is drawn) or are taking any drugs that affect your judgement. The permit is also basically a registration of the gun you purchased, as a copy of it will be sent to the police.
However, you won't get a carry-permit EVER if you can't provide a darn good reason why you need this permit.

To get fully automatic weapons or silencers, you need a collectors license. I'm not sure about requirements to get one of those, but silencers were outlawed on January 1st 1999 and were freely available before, so there's a lot of pre-ban stuff around (that's not used in crimes, btw).

So, I hope I could shed some light on our situation here in the center of Europe. Should any specific questions arise, just ask, I'll do my best to answer them.

there is no need for a excuse to use any type of force especially if there is a good reason like your life or someone innocent is in danger. i do not play the what if game or do i bother in life with excuses. Excuses are for people that know the decision they made was wrong. If someone has already made the premeditated decision to break the law then they have already made the decision to take responsibilty for the action they took, depending on the law broken and the state wherein the death penality could and is a possible sentence for a convicted criminal. Do you belive that if a criminal had the advantage on you ( without a gun) and you begged for your life do you think they would reconsider killing you. I personally think NO they have already commited a crime and do not want to get caught. anyone shot one time will always beg for for life and for help cus it hurts like hell getting shot, its natural instinct for self preservation. as a humanitarian you have to make the first shot count, there is no waiting for begging, just like when your hunting and your off the mark you do not let the creature suffer you place the final shot and end the suffering. I have hunted and trapped animals there is no room for suffering. but ill bet that criminal wouldn't care if you were suffering afer he shot you. Regular people dont use excuses just to go killing people unless your a criminal or the Government or mentally ill, or its a passion killing again there is usually a reason not an excuse.

What hasn't been brought up here is - if they are breaking into your house you can bet they'e done it before. Therefore, they have a criminal record - repeat offender. So you just wound them, then what happens? They go to jail, AGAIN, serve their time, come out once again UNrehabilitated, start robbing again, maybe even kill someone, maybe even come after you, again, for some payback.

Yup they need at trip to the morgue not the jail house. It's cheaper too!

Originally posted by BlindWatcher1
reply to post by osirus82

 

Please don't bring up the, have you served your country. I served my country in Vietnam and yes truth be known I have taken the life of another, many, if you think that it matters. Does that ease the conscience of everyone who wants to get the chance to shoot and drag someone into their home. Hell, lets all arm ourself and just kill anyone who annoys us.

Do not think for a second that I would not protect my wife. Some of you folks will use any excuse you can come up with to use a firearm. If you have the need so badly, ("I'm not aiming this point at you personally, this is to every poster on this thread"), find someone you don't like ask them into your home and open fire.

To any of you who has not watched someone die in front of you, give it a try. Also just wound the intruder so you can get the feeling of what it is like to look into the eyes of the person begging for their life as you pull the trigger the second time. See for yourself how long the image remains in your thoughts. You people think it's so easy to kill someone do it and then come back here and tell me how you feel about it.

and i never made any comment about you serving our country, and i honor the sacrifices you made during you enlistment, expecially during a time and war that should not have been, you are a hero to me for your service alone, all my brother were in the army, 2 were over in iraq, my little brother still is fighting for america again in my eyes the wrong war, but i still respect him see him as a true american ready and willing to do what it takes in a time of war. 2 of my brother have PTSS (shellshock) and they do have a hard time dealing with the flash backs every now and again, i will always be there to help them in anyway. i dont think anyone on the board has said anthying about using an excuse to go kill people we are only talking about criminals breaking in houses and endangering families. if it was breaking into my car there would be no shooting, if the stole a lawn gnome again no shooting, steal my car no shooting, get the drift, IF YOU BREAK IN TO MY HOUSE IN INVITED AND HAVE THREATNING INTENTION I PROMISE THE SAME SENTIMENT WOULD BE REVERSED AND I WOULD NOT FEEL BAD ABOUT IT. IF I SEE A STRANGER JUMP OFF A BUILDING THAT A DECISION THEY MADE IT WOULD NOT BE ON MY CONSCIENCE SAME GOES FOR SOMEONE WILLING PUT THEMSELFS IN A SITUTATION IN WHICH SOMEONE IS GOING TO DIE, I WILL NOT FEEL BAD ABOUT TAKING OUT THE TRASH, BRAIN MATTER AND ALL. ITS NOT MY FAULT THE CRIMINAL CHOSE MY HOUSE. his choice his conscience, why should i hold my self accountable or liable?

reply to post by Lone Star Patriot
You are most definitely the perfect example of why gun policies need to change. You lose it very easily. I'll bet that if you do own a handgun you bought it before the Brady law went into effect. You obviously have some issues that need tending. Is that "literate" enough for you little missy.

Texas is a perfect place for you because I have no doubt that with Texas having the highest executions rate in the prison system, you will have the opportunity of finding out first hand if there's life after death.

Originally posted by BlindWatcher1
To any of you who has not watched someone die in front of you, give it a try. Also just wound the intruder so you can get the feeling of what it is like to look into the eyes of the person begging for their life as you pull the trigger the second time. See for yourself how long the image remains in your thoughts. You people think it's so easy to kill someone do it and then come back here and tell me how you feel about it.

Well apparently it is pretty easy for some people to kill because it happens all the time! And no not just in cases of war or defense, but because someone is in the "wrong place at the wrong time" (i.e. in their house during a breakin) or sometimes just for fun.

Since you have experience as a veteran, I would assume you have a clue just how depraved people can be. If someone breaks into my house I am going to assume they are depraved and I am not going to start empathizing with them.

As Ted Bundy said, "they cease to become people, and they just become a problem".

Edit -- And another thing. I would much rather get over watching them die, then get over being beaten and raped, or get over watching them kill that which I love.

[edit on 23-5-2008 by Sonya610]

reply to post by BlindWatcher1
Spoken like a true tree hugging liberal!

No I'm not a perfect example. No I haven't "lost it" easily BUT I've had a gut full of you view on the subject. I guess you would just talk an armed invader down? It would never work. My literate remark was made b/c you obviously just don't get it. You are proving my point with every post you make. I bought a Browning rifle around Christmas and a Benelli shot gun last summer, so no it has been quit sometime since the Brady Bill went into affect. In the late ninties wasn't it?

I have no issues other than you annoying the hell out of me with you view on the subject.
I'll never end up on death row and if I'm lucky I'll never have to shoot anyone. And if I did it would be just cause there for no charges.

I think we would be better off agreeing to disagree. I'm glad you can look at it the way you do but I can't. I'll tell you why.

My oldest sister had a friend that was murdered in HER OWN HOME BY AN INTRUDER. She didn't die slowly either. The punk had a wrap sheet a mile long including the charge of shooting an FBI agent. The sorry little POS got 15 years!! FIFTEEN YEARS for breaking into someones home and killing them!!

This woman was like family. She was beautiful, intelligent, outgoing and, would give you the shirt off her back!! While she was in realtors school she waited tables at a high end (for lack of better word) strip club. At Christmas time she would get the dancers to take their tips from one dance and donate it to the local homeless shelter. She would also take all of the presents she bought her family and, donate them - in their name as her present to them.

Now explain to me how I should have a different view on this subject when a career criminal is allowed to go on with his life, commiting crimes, while this beautiful person is now non-existant in our lives!! What has he done to better this world?? Nothing!!! BUT he will continue robbing and killing until someone takes his ass out!!

reply to post by Lone Star Patriot
Track him down and do your thing. Like I said you have issues and could not possibly make any kind of sane decision while pointing a weapon at someone. Get some help.

I agree, So Make the decsion NOW....

That way you dont have to "think about deciding" in the heat of the moment.

I still draw the Line at my Front Door and Windows. Even My truck at night, as that is what makes my money, and keeps the house bills paid, and ME and My Family FED and Watered. Dont mess with my Food Or Water....

Also, I hate Pain... especially when its MINE....

I figure "12 Peers" can decide if I was Morally and legally correct or not.

They will have the 'time' to weigh the facts, check past criminal records, ( or "lack of" as in My case ) , look at mugshots and measured distances.

They can work in the "daylight" with armed policemen standing around. Heck they even get a Doughnt and Coffee break... I have what 7 seconds and under 7 feet? ( FBI statistics for most gunfigts )

Yep, I'll let a group of PEERS decide for "Mans Laws" .

God will judge me later, and I will have No Fear.

Look what HE did for MOSES with the RED SEA against ther Roman Army !

That would be called an act of terrorism today and a weapon of mass destruction.

Do you think He felt Guilty and Wrong?

Do you think that he thought about it in advance?

Dont you think he could have 'reasoned' with them, and made them cookies and allowed them to see the error of their ways?

Dont you think that he could have just made all the metal that they were wearing Very Very HOT, where they did the 4 second strip tease and forgot all about Moses?

There was a reason they were "Put to Death", and who am I to Judge the King of judges?

Best Regards,

Blitzkreigen

Originally posted by Blitzkreigen
I agree, So Make the decsion NOW....

That way you dont have to "think about deciding" in the heat of the moment.

Absolutely Blitzkreigen. I have to say the comments by some posters here regarding "deciding whether to take a life", deciding whether to "maime or kill" etc... strike me as very very odd coming from someone that has seen live action in war.

Deciding in the heat of the moment seems so totally out of touch with the reality of a situation such as a home break in. When the police shoot someone they very very rarely "wound them", they typically fill them with several rounds. Why? Because they are trained when things reach a certain point to go all out. Bullets are not "magic". To me anyone that speaks of "wounding" with a firearm is subscribing to "magical" thinking. You shoot, they fall down! You wound them in the leg and you have control! Just like in the movies!

Anyone with common sense realizes it is brutal, and not nearly so "controlled". When the @#$% hits the fan your hands shake, the adrenaline gushes, things happen very very fast and if you hope to survive a conflict you had best understand what your goal is and not be squemish. Sheesh even many self-inflicted head shots (suicide) do NOT result in immediate death. It will become unpleasant so if someone hopes to protect themselves and their families against potentially armed intruders they had best put their big boy pants on and get ready to deal with an ugly situation.

reply to post by Lone Star Patriot


Lonestar,
I believe we are dealing with someone who is intentionaly pulling your chain. I think its time to ignore him or her so this doesn't degrade to a point the mods shut the thread down. Obviously hipocrits will feel some spark within when causing decension. Its not worth your time defending your point of view. Most here know your correct in your assesment of your right to protect yourself and your family!

Zindo

Hey, I Agree...

I dont want to hurt anything...bees, spiders, nothing.....

And I really dont want to "pop a robber" and have the 'dreams thing' start up. I'm not looking forward to waking up every morning thinking about it.

But I'd rather have all that than even "get cut" by someone inside my home.

If I cant be safe in my home, whats the reason for any law?

Even if its only the Illusion of being "safe" in my home.... its about all we have left guys..... and thats even fading fast.

Yep, Ive decided... I will not let anyone take the 'feeling of safety' out of my own home. Even if it means I have nightmares for the rest of my life, I'll still know I'm SAFE in my home when 'it' wakes me up.

I really understand him not wanting to hurt anyone, but sometimes you just are not given the chance to debate, persuade, decide or hesitate.

Someone already took it upon themselves to "order for you", and they have 'no idea' what you eat for breakfast, of if your even hungry. Your getting stuck with 'both bills' as well...

How rude!

No Tip Necessary.... I'll walk that tab.

Best Regards,

Blitzkreigen

reply to post by ZindoDoone

You're very right my friend. I have decided to do this and will not reply to him any more. We both have very different views on defending our family and neither will change their mind.

Everyone else, thanks for backing me!

reply to post by Blitzkreigen

I feel the same exact way.

Originally posted by 3vilscript
Unlike the man in the other topic this person defended himsel very well. Its not what I would have done because, well, I dont own a gun, if I did I would have done the same. You see, Lone Star, I am all for protecting our homes but in the case of Joe Horn, the "calling 911 waiting 10 minutes and then shooting them" just is'nt cutting it. One thing is for sure, if everyone kept a gun in their home it would not stop home invasions, there would just be alot of deaths on both sides. We start keeping semi-automatics, they start carrying automatics... Where does it end??

Your logic doesn't hold. In Switzerland, every male 18-65 is required to keep a rifle in his home. Switzerland does not have a problem with home invasions (or shootings in homes).