3 Students Suspended for not Standing for Pledge

Two pages on this thread and no one has gotten to the root of this.
You don't need the ACLU to defend these kids.
The Supreme Court has already ruled on this. It is compelled speech which is a violation of the 1st amendment. That simple. They didn't have to be protesting anything. They will win. The school will be forced to abandoned their unconstitutional policy.
Johnson v Texas....you can burn the flag (the statute banning flag burning in 1989 was ruled unconstitutional.) burning the flag is protected speech. It is a form of political speech through expression.
You may hate the hell out of these protections and rights but it is why this Country is worth fighting or dying for.
( I honestly just finished a 3 hour exam including the 1st amendment just over an hour ago, so this is pretty fresh in my head)

An excellent conversation/debate here. I can easily understand why
some of you think children should be 'forced' to make the pledge
and/or follow the orders of a teacher. However, I cannot agree
with you, even if I do understand the way you think and feel. (Yes,
it's as much of an emotion as it's logic - to many of us).

jasonjnelson said:

It is a simple procedure.

Stand when the PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE is recited, as well as the
national anthem. You are, after all, making that pledge.

If not, (and don't use the under God reference, it can be omitted)
and you don't want to say the pledge? Get the BLEEP out, and find a
country that will hand you the same benefits and security without an
oath of allegiance.

Yeah, thought so...

Well, there are many countries that can give you the 'same benefits'
(or even more) without forcing you to make same kind of pledge. For
example here in Finland. But yes, we have obligations and duties as
well as rights - as you do. For a long time there was a mandatory
'prayer' for every morning from grade 1 to 9 on our schools. As we
have a lot of people who are not religious or are not christian,
it's not done here anymore. We have a compulsory service for all men,
but there are some religious groups who don't have to.. also we have
a 'non military service' and even military service that is done
without guns. There is a lot of disgussion going on from time to
time, what are your 'duties' as a citizen of your country and what
are your rights.

I myself think, any 'duty' is something you have to _take yourself_
and understand.. you cannot just force somebody to do as YOU WISH and
say 'hey, it's your duty as an american/finnish/italian/w'ever...' ..
it's not the way it goes. Then you're doing things because you _have
to_, not because it's your duty that you have taken and truly wish to
do. It doesn't of course mean any duty or obligation is or should be
'fun' or easy.. they can be very hard, difficult and ethically and
morally challencing, but you do them if you truly belive it's the
right thing to do. I cannot see myself following any duty if I feel
I'm doing something wrong.

For a children, you need to think, when it's about learning and
teaching - and when it's about forcing/manipulating your own ideas
to someone who has no 'rights' or ways of defending himself. We also
used to have a lot of different kind of flag seremonions and similar
stuff at school back in the days, but luckily they're all made
voluntary. YOu can say 'I do not wish to participate' and most of the
time, it's not a problem at all for the teacher.

Even most of the grown up people don't have a true chance of 'moving
out' from the country you're born, less a child can just 'get the
BLEEP out' even if she wishes to. In a way, they're 'forced' to learn
(every place/country where there id mandatory basic education), but you
should not use it as on excuse to make them think like you, feel like
you and believe(?) the same way you do.

The best thing in this thread is that we all have the RIGHT to say
what we think and feel about this issue - the whole point in here. We
can (and should) respect that, even if we don't agree with each
others. We all live a different life, in different conditions and
have a different knowledge of things. It's natural that we make
different choises and prioritize our values differently.

(Btw. I truly respect those who actually would die for _someone elses
_ right for free speach and other basic human rights. But I still can
disagree with them strongly ...)

reply to post by jasonjnelson

If not, (and don't use the under God reference, it can be omitted) and you don't want to say the pledge? Get the BLEEP out, and find a country that will hand you the same benefits and security without an oath of allegiance.

In Canada we make no pledges and have free healthcare and dont need to fight in wars and dont go to jail if you are caught with a bag of marijuana. Also i think my city is pretty safe 200000 people and we average 2 - 3 murders a year. Terrorism isnt an issue here as we dont piss off other nations often. Last but not least our education system is pretty damn good and there are jobs a plenty.

Like i said, no oath or pledge and we are not required to stand for our anthem. All Canadians love their country but we usually dont display signs of patriotism, at least not on levels as extreme as i have seen in the US. Im not saying its wrong to love your country but there is more to life than installing multiple huge flagpoles in your yard, personally i have a BBQ in mine. Also i questions my politicians motives too much to instantly drop my pants at the sight of a flag.

I don't even understand why there is a debate on this,
We are in america and should be free

It is their right to not say the pledge if they don't want to
Freedom of speech, what is everyones problem?

Originally posted by Res Ipsa
Two pages on this thread and no one has gotten to the root of this.
You don't need the ACLU to defend these kids.
The Supreme Court has already ruled on this. It is compelled speech which is a violation of the 1st amendment. That simple. They didn't have to be protesting anything. They will win. The school will be forced to abandoned their unconstitutional policy.
Johnson v Texas....you can burn the flag (the statute banning flag burning in 1989 was ruled unconstitutional.) burning the flag is protected speech. It is a form of political speech through expression.
You may hate the hell out of these protections and rights but it is why this Country is worth fighting or dying for.
( I honestly just finished a 3 hour exam including the 1st amendment just over an hour ago, so this is pretty fresh in my head)

Great post, however the First Amendment is pretty well covered under the Patriot Act. There is no such thing anymore. Until we can get enough senators and congressmen to repeal it.

I wish it wasn't so, and your argument is quite compelling and completely Constitutional-which I love. Sadly, our current administration, and most likely the ensuing administrations are using the Constitution as a historical wall decoration.

Originally posted by mnmcandiez
I don't even understand why there is a debate on this,
We are in america and should be free

It is their right to not say the pledge if they don't want to
Freedom of speech, what is everyones problem?

The problem is not that they didn't say the pledge - but that they did not stand with the class when everyone else said the pledge.

The issue is - - do they have the right to stay seated - - to be noticed - to stand out - a quiet protest.

By the way - I do think children should be taught the Real history and truth of the pledge.

And the history and truth of the man who wrote it and why.

Say in 6th grade - a reasonable age of consent.

Francis Bellamy (1855 - 1931), a Baptist minister, wrote the original Pledge in August 1892. He was a Christian Socialist. In his Pledge, he is expressing the ideas of his first cousin, Edward Bellamy, author of the American socialist utopian novels, Looking Backward (1888) and Equality (1897).

Francis Bellamy in his sermons and lectures and Edward Bellamy in his novels and articles described in detail how the middle class could create a planned economy with political, social and economic equality for all. The government would run a peace time economy similar to our present military industrial complex.

The Pledge was published in the September 8th issue of The Youth's Companion, the leading family magazine and the Reader's Digest of its day. Its owner and editor, Daniel Ford, had hired Francis in 1891 as his assistant when Francis was pressured into leaving his baptist church in Boston because of his socialist sermons. As a member of his congregation, Ford had enjoyed Francis's sermons. Ford later founded the liberal and often controversial Ford Hall Forum, located in downtown Boston.

In 1892 Francis Bellamy was also a chairman of a committee of state superintendents of education in the National Education Association. As its chairman, he prepared the program for the public schools' quadricentennial celebration for Columbus Day in 1892. He structured this public school program around a flag raising ceremony and a flag salute - his 'Pledge of Allegiance.'

His original Pledge read as follows: 'I pledge allegiance to my Flag and (to*) the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.' He considered placing the word, 'equality,' in his Pledge, but knew that the state superintendents of education on his committee were against equality for women and African Americans. [ * 'to' added in October, 1892. ]

In 1923 and 1924 the National Flag Conference, under the 'leadership of the American Legion and the Daughters of the American Revolution, changed the Pledge's words, 'my Flag,' to 'the Flag of the United States of America.' Bellamy disliked this change, but his protest was ignored.

In 1954, Congress after a campaign by the Knights of Columbus, added the words, 'under God,' to the Pledge. The Pledge was now both a patriotic oath and a public prayer.

Bellamy's granddaughter said he also would have resented this second change. He had been pressured into leaving his church in 1891 because of his socialist sermons. In his retirement in Florida, he stopped attending church because he disliked the racial bigotry he found there.

so just to be clear,
we are no longer debating the "legality" about this issue anymore.
We are now giving our opinions on the subjective value of the issue.
(to the poster about the patriot act, I sincerely hope you are right in your assertion, because I would love the opportunity to take a 1st amendment challenge to the SC, especially if it is a fully protected form of speech such as the one in this thread.) Queitly, the SC is hoping that they aren't going to have to bitch slap Bush's edicts, and that they will just go away along with him. Scalia wouldn't even defend some of these things Bush has done. Normally, the SC would jump right in on a great debate that needs deciding but when it comes to Bush and things like "habeas corpus", they just throw their hands into the, see no evil, hear no evil position. It would be an embarrassment to have to rule on these blatantly unconstitutional acts. It will all go away quitely like I said.

If the state can force children to assume a specific position ( standing at attention for a specified period of time ) to make them adhere to a particular political persuasion, then that is coercion and illegal.

We, if we choose to, are supposed to pledge allegiance to the CONSTITUTION, not a piece of cloth!! The flag can be waved by a filthy murderer ande scumbag like George Bush and his traitorous crew so it has little mesning. Anyone can wave a flag and say that they are the real patriots, but of course they will not wave the Constitution around because it shames them every time; the Bush/Clinton etc. cabal's have ZERO respect for the Constitution, the flag, religion or conventional morality.

To get where they are now, they have had to double deal, murder, deal drugs on a massive scale, destroy the documents that we need to survive as a nation and amass as much filthy lucre as possible before scurrying off to paraguay and away from extradition in years to some. Don't think that the world will not be outraged when more of the crimes are uncovered and published, the anthrax sent by the Neocon/Israeli moles in the Bush cabal, the murder's of the two boys in Mena Arkansas when they stumbled upon a Clinton approved CIA coc aine drop...it goes on and on.

Vince Foster, David Kelly, Paul Wellstone, JFK, RFK, MLK....how many assassinations do we need to see before we start figuring it all out? All of the major terror attacks have been inside jobs by the shadow government intel guys to advance their fortunes and budgets and to gain territory. We are a rouge nation now, using military might to steal oil and land and kill millions, and all for lies...proven lies. Bush lies and the proof is offered and the people yawn and go back to sleep.

Waving the Jolly Roger may be a way to instill fear in your victims, but sooner or later that flag will be torn down and a new one put up that represents the will of the people to be free and not under the thumb of traitors and criminals.

reply to post by jasonjnelson


Hey, you fought for their rights... right? So why complain when someone decides to use them?

I'm not of the USA, I'm from GB well N. Ireland to be precise but I've lived in England for about 15 years. If I didn't have to have a passport then I wouldn't, its offensive to me to have to prove anything to anyone any where in this world that I have just as much right to freely wander and visit! I don't recognise the Union Jack Flag as having anything to do with me never have never will. I don't feel Irish and don't feel British. The Queen means nothing to me other than something/one that has raped the world and continues this evil and oppressive facade as does all the evil and oppressive political party's that don’t hold any values that I hold dear i.e. Cause no harm for a start. So all that said, I feel both alien to the system of patriotism and glad not to have it as a barrier to seeing the enslaving and controlling nature of all forms of patriotism. I tend to self judge and see if something feels right based on my life experiences and obviously of what I read and how I perceive based on the former. So when I read of people on here talking about “Fighting for my Country” it staggers me because I don’t know when US was last invaded? So the fact that people, and they have to be blinded by this enslaving ‘patriotism’ or just ignorant and gullible, allow them to be manipulated by ‘Masters’?

When I used to go to a cinema, when I was in my teens in N. Ireland at the end they used to play the National Anthem of God Save he Queen. Well, I didn’t care that it was a British anthem and I was an Irish Catholic, I just didn’t feel that this song or Queen had any relevance to me so I’d just walk out. But, it was viewed as un-patriotic and labelled me as a “fenian Bastard” with minor consequences like being called said, “fenian Bastard” or being beaten or shot! (No, I’m not kidding). I didn’t need a constitution to protect me because I don’t need a constitution to govern me or guide me. Anyone that needs one of these laws to define them has given up the very thing that is always outside any President, Queen, Religion, and Social group, Sect or Law i.e. your inane right to be.

What's next? You kicked out of school for having a Jewish grandfather?

Tell me where in the constitution it says citizens MUST pledge allegiance to the government.
Sheesh, this ain't Nazi Germany.. well not yet anyway, but at this rate the US ain't too far off..

Are you alone on this Godfather,
the legal issue is moot. It is decided. Lets stop debating about the Constitution, Rights, and the other facts of this thread. Go at it with the subjective debate about what you "feel" but the legal debate is over.
This is unconstitutional and it will be taken care of.

I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.

So... I don't know why the kids were protesting. however I can see why someone would protest the pledge of allegience.
That whole justice for all part. well that's a bunch of bs.

I remember not standing for the pledge of allegiance in High School (around 1995) and getting sent to the office. My English teacher stood up for me and gave me some papers detailing the West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette case that went to the supreme court. I wasn't doing it out of any religious beliefs, but because I don't pledge allegiance to a flag nor to the republic for which it stands. I don't believe in God, so it seemed disrespectful to others to recite the pledge and not believe in any of it.

Originally posted by Annee

Originally posted by mnmcandiez
I don't even understand why there is a debate on this,
We are in america and should be free

It is their right to not say the pledge if they don't want to
Freedom of speech, what is everyones problem?

The problem is not that they didn't say the pledge - but that they did not stand with the class when everyone else said the pledge.

The issue is - - do they have the right to stay seated - - to be noticed - to stand out - a quiet protest.

Yeah they have all the right in the world to, why wouldnt they??
Do you not like freedom?

[edit on 5/12/2008 by mnmcandiez]

While the punishment was too harsh, these kids are in school, and they didn't follow the rules--period. Kids are allowed to be disrespectful, and one of the reasons is because of this--they shouldn't HAVE to--attitude.

I don't see anything wrong with the pledge. America is more that just the people in power and all of the bad things. It's very disrespectful to not honor the sacrifices men and women have made for you, whether or not the reasons were wrong or right. The fact is these people DID fight for your rights, and ARE fighting for your rights, no matter how much our rights are being flushed down the toilet. It isn't their fault.

If I had to say the pledge, I would think of the America that I want, not the one going to hell in a handbasket...and GOD can be whatever it is that helps you get through life. It doesn't have to be GOD.

The citizens of a country represent it just as much as the ones in power do. Don't throw your country under the school bus, or you're going to be suspended for a lifetime instead of one day.

Something is horribly wrong with the liquidating amount of rights given to high school students. I didn't stand for the pledge more than a few times all of high school as I started reading more about politics, I knew it was my right. Yet I had done my fair share of in school suspensions for not standing as well. Rediculous, and I knew the Supreme Court ruled against this but teachers are so ignorant they don't really care. They aren't there to help you they are there to help themselves and in bed their beliefs into the young and vulnerable. At least most, I can't say all teachers are like this.

"But if they asked you right now, pledge allegiance to America, or go pledge it to another country, most likely, you would stay here."

Wow, way to not understand what America is. If America required me to pledge allegiance or go somewhere else, I wouldn't *want* to live here. America is not its flag, its not even the geophysical location on the planet politically designated the United States, its an idea. The idea that we are all equals.

What you are talking about is like singing in church the loudest so your neighbors know you love Jesus the most. Personally, I speak the loudest with my actions, not with meaningless rituals. I don't give a damn what other people think. I love America and I don't have to prove it to anybody.

Originally posted by mnmcandiez
I don't even understand why there is a debate on this,
We are in america and should be free

It is their right to not say the pledge if they don't want to
Freedom of speech, what is everyones problem?

Because a large number of Americans are ignorant and believe we are a Democracy, And that their mob mentality can force involuntary compliance on an individual simply because that individual went against the status quo, Flag waving, Blind patriotism, BS propaganda machine.

When the reality is we are a Republic, And unless an individual is violating another individuals rights, Its no one's right to force their personal opinions on anyone else through law.

But as stated, Most Americans are ignorant, And for some reason everyone likes to stick there head up the next guys ass and get into his business...

If only people would support the freedom they talk so highly about, But I guess one 's freedom is rather they choose to join the mob or choose not to...

What a joke this once free nation has become...