Debunking the Chemtrail Debunker.

Originally posted by OzWeatherman
I dont want youtbe videos as evidence, they arent reliable enough.

Hmmm...

Yes, YouTube typically does cry amateur -

Did you happen to notice that the videos were done by the Discovery Channel?
Logo right on the bottom of the screen.

Now, I would say Discovery Channel does not cry amateur. Does it make it fact?
Not necessarily - I will say that they have some good points to reflect upon.

Its easy to throw out titles, "Im a meteorologist", or "airplane pilot".
There is not even a consensus among them about topics such as this.
You can look at our own board to see that this would appear to be the case.

i.e. - Thinking of John Lears claims on certain issues, vs. another of our members claims here which disagree with each other 100%. John Lear is famous and the other isnt...so who do you listen to? What about learning to listen to ourselves?

Most people get caught up in titles - and the people throwing out titles expect people to believe them based upon just that. Information is out there for all, the world is now small, the ego is becoming more deflated as we can no longer hide behind our constructed identities.

Again, it really doesnt matter - the great thing is you are free to believe what you want as well as others will continue to believe what they want.

For sure there is nothing to divide us as people just because we see the world differently.

Peace

dAlen

[edit on 7-5-2008 by dAlen]

Originally posted by cutbothways
reply to post by OzWeatherman

 

Again, you are wrong.


Contrails form by water vapor clinging to the dust in the exhaust.

That is true, but like you said before the air needs to be supersaturated. Dust does not supersaturate the air and is not the only by product of aircraft exhaust. So again you have contradicted your own knowledge of basic meteorology and thermodynamics

So, the air need to be at least -40c or less, 250mb or more, and "quite humid" according to NASA, the Appleman Chart, and you.

Now, read this.

At usual airline cruise altitudes of 9,144 to 11,877 m (30,000-39,000 ft),
the ambient air has little humidity.

Source

Pressure is not a deciding factor, yet again you bring it up.

Yes the ambient air has little humidty which is why water vapour from aircraft exhaust is needed to encourage supersaturation. Again that just further concretes the fact that contrails are water vapour

Note: Although not restricted, the cargo compartments on our Airbus A319, A320, and A321 aircraft are not heated and temperatures can be as low as two degrees Celsius, so it is not recommended to transport animals on these aircraft during the winter season.

www.aircanada.com...

As low as 2C in the winter? I thought -40C happened all the time. How do you explain this?

Ok, please explain to me why you arev talking about the inside of planes. Last time i checked contrails occured outside the aircraft

I thought you said you flew airplanes, becoming more obvious that you were lying

Originally posted by dAlen
Its easy to throw out titles, "Im a meteorologist", or "airplane pilot".
There is not even a consensus among them about topics such as this.
You can look at our own board to see that this would appear to be the case.

[edit on 7-5-2008 by dAlen]

But I genuinely am.

I have proof, just email my work address (which I am happy to U2U to anyone who wants it) and I will email you back

reply to post by OzWeatherman


So, what are the atmospheric conditions required for a contrail to form.

Please include.

Temperature.
Pressure in Hpa
Humidity.

As a balloon launcher, you should have sufficient data at your fingertips to explain the conditions between where a contrail forms, and it doesn't.

By the way, if the ambient temperature on the exterior of the aircraft is -40, and the interior that is not heated stays at a comfy 2C, and it only gets this cold in the winter time, doesn't that suggest -40C even at 30000 ft is rare?

reply to post by cutbothways


Already done so in this thread

www.abovetopsecret.com...

And the inside temperature of an aircraft has no relevance on the temperature outside of the air craft. Thats just common sense

Think I might log off for the night now

[edit on 7/5/2008 by OzWeatherman]

reply to post by OzWeatherman


Please include.

Temperature. -36C
Pressure in Hpa (no answer)
Humidity. (no answer)

And the inside temperature of an aircraft has no relevance on the temperature outside of the air craft. Thats just common sense

Ever put an aluminum can in a fridge?

Of course it has relevance.

A compartment on the bottom of an aircraft (that's not heated), will maintain a similar temperature as the ambient air, and don't forget windchill.



[edit on 7-5-2008 by cutbothways]

Originally posted by OzWeatherman

But I genuinely am.

I have proof, just email my work address (which I am happy to U2U to anyone who wants it) and I will email you back

Hey Oz...

I dont doubt you are a weather man.
It seems you missed the point in my post...but no biggy.

Peace

dAlen

Originally posted by cutbothways
reply to post by OzWeatherman

 

So, what are the atmospheric conditions required for a contrail to form.

asd-www.larc.nasa.gov...

By the way, if the ambient temperature on the exterior of the aircraft is -40, and the interior that is not heated stays at a comfy 2C, and it only gets this cold in the winter time, doesn't that suggest -40C even at 30000 ft is rare?

Are you suggesting all meteorological data amassed from all parts of the world for the past 100 years or so is wrong?

Anyway, a quick check shows that, although today was the warmest day of the year so far here in central England, the temperature above 8300m was below -40c

weather.uwyo.edu...

Similar temps at a similar altitude above Melbourne in Australia

weather.uwyo.edu...

Though over Africa you had to climb to 11,000m to find such temps

weather.uwyo.edu...

Perfectly normal. -40c wherever you are in the world at the altitudes at which airliners usually fly

reply to post by Essan


I already posted the Appleman chart once. You should really read the posts in the thread.



Your still missing humidity. What is the relative humidity today, at 8000 metres, in England today? Could you also supply pressure, at 30,000 ft?
Temperature. -36C
Pressure in Hpa 250-900?
Humidity. (no answer)

From the Wyoming chart

8328 -41.9 -58.5 15

8328 metres (27,322 ft)
Ambient temp -41.9 (12Z in Nottingham, England)
Dewpoint -58.5 (temperature needed for water vapor to condense)
RH 15. Too dry for contrails.

RH (percent)
hpa . 0 30 60 90 100
30.0 -69.61 -68.67 -67.36 -64.93 -61.74
50.0 -65.53 -64.54 -63.17 -60.64 -57.15
100.0 -59.68 -58.63 -57.17 -54.47 -50.92
115.0 -58.45 -57.39 -55.91 -53.17 -49.61
130.0 -57.36 -56.29 -54.79 -52.02 -48.43
150.0 -56.07 -54.99 -53.47 -50.66 -47.01
175.0 -54.67 -53.56 -52.02 -49.18 -45.42
200.0 -53.43 -52.31 -50.76 -47.87 -44.12
250.0 -51.33 -50.19 -48.60 -45.65 -41.80
300.0 -49.58 -48.42 -46.80 -43.79 -39.87
350.0 -48.07 -46.89 -45.25 -42.20 -38.23
400.0 -46.75 -45.55 -43.89 -40.80 -36.77
450.0 -45.57 -44.36 -42.67 -39.54 -35.46
500.0 -44.50 -43.27 -41.57 -38.41 -34.28
600.0 -42.62 -41.37 -39.63 -36.41 -32.18
700.0 -41.00 -39.73 -37.97 -34.69 -30.40
800.0 -39.58 -38.29 -36.50 -33.18 -28.84
900.0 -38.30 -37.00 -35.19 -31.82 -27.43
1000.0 -37.15 -35.84 -34.00 -30.60 -26.15

[edit on 7-5-2008 by cutbothways]

reply to post by cutbothways


Did you actually read Essans post, all he was saying is that -40C is common at great heights. He said nothing about contrail development.

And like I said before and sorry to the mods for this:

PRESSURE HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH CONTRAIL DEVELOPMENT, the pressure is on the appleman chart because it is a better indicator in weather terms than height....sheeesh

And you contradicted yourself for the 20th time by posting that Wyoming sounding

[edit on 7/5/2008 by OzWeatherman]

Why can't you guys address the problem with humidity.

Need to be near 100% humidity for a contrail to form
normally.

Fig. 4. RHI (%) at 225 hPa from RUC-2 analyses, 9-12-2001.

Over PA, RHI ranges from 90% at the OH border to
50% at the eastern PA border. Over Pittsburgh (PIT)
underneath contrail A at 1200 UTC, the RUC RHI is
80%, while near Aberdeen, MD (ABD), close to C at
1200 UTC, RHI = 55%. A similar value is found over
Dulles, VA (IAD) near contrail D, while RHI = 80% over
Blacksburg, VA (BLK) near the end of E. These values
are too low for sustaining contrails. To determine if
these values are due to the model assimilation process,
the rawinsonde RHI profiles are compared with the
corresponding RUC values at 1200 UTC. in Fig. 5. The
RUC increased RHI at most levels over BLK and PIT
while smoothing or decreasing RHI over ABD and IAD.
No contrails were observed for RHI < 55%

www-pm.larc.nasa.gov...

Again, I have exposed your BS.

According to the above NASA pdf,
even a 90% relative humidity (with respect to ice) was too low to sustain contrails.

And zero contrails were observed below 55% RHi.

Like natural cirrus clouds, contrails can impact
climate through their radiative effects. Persistent
contrails often form in air with relative humidities with
respect to ice (RHI) exceeding 100% but with relative
humidities with respect to water (RH) less than 100%.

This is like trying to hang a framed picture on a waterfall.
Or a dog trying to stand up in a car.

Again, the desire to believe is trumping the necessity to be a logical creature.

Starred neformore, I love those pictures of pre-50's contrails. I mean, that should end this conspiracy flat out, no?

Originally posted by SantaClaus
Starred neformore, I love those pictures of pre-50's contrails. I mean, that should end this conspiracy flat out, no?

I would have thought so, but - as I have learned during my time looking at subjects that ATS covers - belief is in the eye of the beholder.

Sometimes people see black, but will continue to say its white.

Edit to say thank you for the star I get so few nowadays!

[edit on 7/0508/08 by neformore]

Originally posted by cutbothways
Why can't you guys address the problem with humidity.

Need to be near 100% humidity for a contrail to form
normally.

Fig. 4. RHI (%) at 225 hPa from RUC-2 analyses, 9-12-2001.

Over PA, RHI ranges from 90% at the OH border to
50% at the eastern PA border. Over Pittsburgh (PIT)
underneath contrail A at 1200 UTC, the RUC RHI is
80%, while near Aberdeen, MD (ABD), close to C at
1200 UTC, RHI = 55%. A similar value is found over
Dulles, VA (IAD) near contrail D, while RHI = 80% over
Blacksburg, VA (BLK) near the end of E. These values
are too low for sustaining contrails. To determine if
these values are due to the model assimilation process,
the rawinsonde RHI profiles are compared with the
corresponding RUC values at 1200 UTC. in Fig. 5. The
RUC increased RHI at most levels over BLK and PIT
while smoothing or decreasing RHI over ABD and IAD.
No contrails were observed for RHI < 55%

www-pm.larc.nasa.gov...

Again, I have exposed your BS.

According to the above NASA pdf,
even a 90% relative humidity (with respect to ice) was too low to sustain contrails.

And zero contrails were observed below 55% RHi.

Like natural cirrus clouds, contrails can impact
climate through their radiative effects. Persistent
contrails often form in air with relative humidities with
respect to ice (RHI) exceeding 100% but with relative
humidities with respect to water (RH) less than 100%.

I'm still waiting for a response to this.

Please, Oz or Essan, address this. How do contrails form with less
than 55% Relative Humidity?? According to NASA, it's impossible.

So, it has to be something else, i.e Chemical Trail (Death)

reply to post by cutbothways


There were no contrails here today - as was easily predictable from the sounding Which I linked to solely in response to your erroneous assertion that the temp at which aircraft fly rarely drops to -40c

You really do need to put those goalposts down

en.wikipedia.org...

Ok, this is probably my last reply on this thread as the Op appears to be lying about being a pilot and cant seem to read (or is ignoring) all of mine and Essans thread. Starting to get a little annoyed so best to go before I snap at someone. These are the reasons why

I never said anything about the percentage of humidty required, I never debated the percentage of humidty required

Pressure has nothing to do with contrail development

The Op has been contradicting himself/ herself repeatedly

The Op has lied about flying airplanes

The Op is suggesting ridiculous theories like temperature inside the aircraft is the same as the outside ambient temperature of the upper atmosphere

The Op referred to a skew T diagram which contains data from weather balloons, measuring humidity, temperature, wind direction and speed of the upper atmosphere, (where contrails occur) and is a recognised World Meteorological Organsiation product as something done by a "3rd grader"

Maybe the mods should look more carefully at this thread, too many inconsistancies and its getting out of hand

I do have a question for Oz or Essan.

After watching the Discovery Channel Documentary posted in this thread I have a couple of comments/questions. (perhaps you guys would want to sit through it first to see both sides of the story, and what lies in between.)

In the documentary there is a meteorologist, I believe, who said that cirrus clouds actually create warmth vs. a cooling effect that other type of clouds would make.

Now this is more about weather modification, not necessarily about chemicals, etc.

Of course there is the debate going on about global warming.
And seeing that the consensus from both sides in the documentary seemed to say that cirrus clouds were being formed by airplanes, one would have to ask how this ties into global warming, as well as the weather modification projects.

i.e. -
In the documentary the case for weather modification was so as to help reduce global warming, etc. This is all nice, etc., but apparently for this to work they would need to help reduce the cirrus clouds.

So back to the global warming debate.
If indeed most of the clouds forming from whatever is coming out of the back of airplanes are cirrus clouds...which increase the earths temperature instead of decreasing it - then perhaps there is something to the skeptics who think global warming is a joke.

In effect global warming is non other than the effect of these cirrus clouds.
And even more so, could give credence to what some would call the 'scam' of global warming, and for those who even say that we are going into global cooling.

If we indeed are going into global cooling, then what an irony it would be if indeed they are trying to warm up the planet.

One would ask the obvious question why choose heating over cooling if the latter is the real issue? Well why do 'they' choose anything?

Anyway, I thought that bit was interesting.

Peace

dAlen

Originally posted by OzWeatherman
Ok, this is probably my last reply on this thread as the Op appears to be lying about being a pilot and cant seem to read

First off, I really wish you would stop the slander.

As I stated before;

Never said I was a pilot. I flew as crew chief (engineer) on the P-3
All the other is classified. But I flew many times before the Navy. My
father was Swedish. I've made the trip to Sweden a few times.

And I can read fine.

Your childish response though is telling.

Throw a little fit when you've been spanked.

reply to post by OzWeatherman

The Op is suggesting ridiculous theories like temperature inside the aircraft is the same as the outside ambient temperature of the upper atmosphere

I agree, even if the baggage or gear part of the aircraft isn't heated, wouldn't the heat from the cabin portion of the plane warm it up even if just a little bit? theres no way it could be -40 inside the plane anywhere. Even if it was in an area where there were no pets IE: not heated, things like gel, shampoo, etc or any other liquid would freeze solid....I travel a lot for work and have never found anything frozen, even partially upon landing nor any evidence that anything had been frozen and thawed out.


The layman's explanation for contrails:

If you look up on a sunny day and see in the cloudless sky a jet leaving a long, white plume, then rain, snow or some other form of precipitation may be on the way. That white plume is called a contrail. It is the condensation trail of ice crystals left behind by the exhaust of a flying jet aircraft. These aircraft fly 8 to 12 kilometres above the ground pulling in very cold, dry air and spewing out hot, water-filled exhaust. The hot water vapour mixes with the colder surrounding air, and in the process, expands and then freezes in 1 or 2 seconds forming a trail of ice crystals.

If a jet leaves no trail or only a short trail or if the trail fades quickly then the air at that level is relatively dry. This means the fair weather is likely to continue. But, if the exhaust trail lingers for an hour or more or spreads across the sky, that means the surrounding air is moist and rain or some other form of precipitation may be on the way.

Source

[edit on 7-5-2008 by QBSneak000]

reply to post by QBSneak000

I agree, even if the baggage or gear part of the aircraft isn't heated, wouldn't the heat from the cabin portion of the plane warm it up even if just a little bit? theres no way it could be -40 inside the plane anywhere. Even if it was in an area where there were no pets IE: not heated, things like gel, shampoo, etc or any other liquid would freeze solid

Some research would be nice before you chime in to debunk.

Furthermore, the luggage is typically stored in areas of the plane which are subject to the variations of temperature and pressure which occur as a function of altitude. Specifically, the temperature and pressure within the baggage compartment will decrease substantially as the airplane reaches cruising altitude, often times subjecting the luggage contents to temperatures below their particular freezing points.

www.patentstorm.us...