A New Christian Conspiracy!

Originally posted by TheWalkingFox
reply to post by jimmyjackblack

 

When did the RCC start selling indulgences again? Pope Pious V canceled existing monetary indulgences, and forbade any more being granted, in 1567. It's four hundred and forty years later, and so far, no other Pope has sold indulgences.

Oh wait, I forgot I'm on the CiR forum. If it's not Pentecostal, it's crrrrrrap!

'Course, Catholicism is the largest group of Christians on the earth, followed closely by Eastern Orthodoxy... So... Maybe they're on to something.

I'm telling you what's behind the prosperity doctrine. American protestantism - with its focus on do-nothing salvation, political indulgence, and fast-track capitalism is behind this doctrine. I'm terribly sorry if this pisses off people, but that's exactly what is behind this "philosophy"

[edit on 14-4-2008 by TheWalkingFox]

Martha Stewart has some for her and her whole family. So that's one great example. Like I said before, this isn't Catholic vs. Protestant, both do bad things, both are guilty for the continuation of these bad things.

-Jimmy

I'll make a few comments here that I've been intending to put into a topic of their own, but I see them as the main problems with the 'church' today.

In essence I see three conflicting teachings in the Bible when we look at it as a whole. There is the old testament(covenant), the teachings of Christ(new covenant), and the teachings of Paul.

The old covenant was the law between God and man that Moses and his People agreed to follow. There were approximately 660 of these laws. Salvation was predicated upon keeping these laws. Jews are still bound by these laws today and still hold this Covenant

The New Covenent was The modern church was founded on the teachings of Paul (who I remind you, never met Christ, except perhaps thru some visions which also included talking dogs). Paul specifically teaches that salvation is attainable thru faith and faith alone. Christ certainly spoke of the ministry of faith(for whosoever believes in me), but he also spoke of works(feed my sheep).

Clearskies,

Indulgences are granted, yes. But they are not sold. And frankly, I find the idea that a pope can grant you forgiveness for your sins no less bizarre that some minister with a mic can slap you upside the noggin to cast out all your demons.

...I do find both incredibly silly, but I don't really see one as more silly than the other, is what I'm saying

Jack Black,

I'm not doing the Catholic vs. Protestant thing (though I am responding to those who are, sure). My point is that what you're describing is an evolution of the core of what Protestantism is about. The belief that you don't have to do anything for salvation.

The "something for nothing" mentality is almost universally derided - but when it comes to asking why Christianity is in the state it is in, this exact same mentality gets a free pass?

It seems people are forcing themselves to ignore the obvious in favor of the convoluted.

Opus: Lassie. Benji. Flipper. Mr. Ed. All male characters portrayed by female animals. Why?
Rosebud: We don't piddle all over the landsca-
Opus: No, no, nothing that poetic!

ack, my last was not supposed to post, I attempted to save it as a draft so that I could work on it and finish it later. now I cant edit it

[edit on 15-4-2008 by pavlovsdog]

I think Christ wants us to drop out of the secular rat race. If Cristian's' lived tog eater communally and stopped chasing the fake "American Dream".
Stopped their false hopes and greed and spending sprees. On a bunch of junk that never satisfies. That ends up in storage. We could all set around the camp fire, sing telling jokes and entertaining each other.
But we can see how much the secular system hates and attacks anyone
that dares to forsakes the slave driven economy and the taxes it generates.
Jones town, Waco, the latest thing in Texas. The list go's on and on.
Don't think all those organizations are as bad, as the villains your beloved
government paints of them. Only the godless believe those lies.
Give unto Caesar his money. If that is what he wants. Our lives, bodies,
souls, and minds, belong to the Lord.
"Choose you this day whom you will serve. If the Lord be your God, then serve Him. If Caesar be your God, then serve him"!

Originally posted by TheWalkingFox
Clearskies,

Indulgences are granted, yes. But they are not sold. And frankly, I find the idea that a pope can grant you forgiveness for your sins no less bizarre that some minister with a mic can slap you upside the noggin to cast out all your demons.

DISPOSITIONS NECESSARY TO GAIN AN INDULGENCE

The mere fact that the Church proclaims an indulgence does not imply that it can be gained without effort on the part of the faithful. From what has been said above, it is clear that the recipient must be free from the guilt of mortal sin. Furthermore, for plenary indulgences, confession and Communion are usually required, while for partial indulgences, though confession is not obligatory, the formula corde saltem contrito, i.e. "at least with a contrite heart", is the customary prescription. Regarding the question discussed by theologians whether a person in mortal sin can gain an indulgence for the dead, see PURGATORY. It is also necessary to have the intention, at least habitual, of gaining the indulgence. Finally, from the nature of the case, it is obvious that one must perform the good works -- prayers, alms deeds, visits to a church, etc. -- which are prescribed in the granting of an indulgence. For details see "Raccolta".

O.K., may I draw your attention to the underlined 'almsdeeds'?
Catholic encyclopedia

Alms and Almsgiving

(Greek eleemosyne, "pity," "mercy").

Any material favour done to assist the needy, and prompted by charity, is almsgiving.

Such as adding $$$ to the coffer.

I have attended the circus, money oriented churches that you speak of, but, I know the real too....
The Power of The Holy Spirit is real and I pray you are led to the Lord with an open heart, soon.


Jesus warned us about many last days false prophets.



[edit on 15-4-2008 by Clearskies]

Yeah yeah. Jesus warns you about everything you didn't like anyway, I know.

Do you have any comment on the subject being broached by Jack? Or are you just going to sit there and tell us how absolutely awesome you are? I'd be interested in what you think the reason is for the situation he brought up.

reply to post by Howie47


Wait wait wait.

But we can see how much the secular system hates and attacks anyone
that dares to forsakes the slave driven economy and the taxes it generates.
Jones town, Waco, the latest thing in Texas. The list go's on and on.
Don't think all those organizations are as bad, as the villains your beloved
government paints of them. Only the godless believe those lies.

So because these three groups chose to not pay taxes (And in fact further broke the law by cheating the system to steal the taxes you and I paid...) they're heroes?

You have to be "godless" to believe that these three groups - all of which worshiped a human being as god incarnate, all of which indulged in child marriage, all of which have followers ready to maim or kill each other at a single word from their "prophet" are bad?

Any other Christians here puffing the pipe that this fellow is toking from?

This is a very apt point. Thank you for the thread.

Christianity is the followings of the teachings of Jesus of Nazareth, the Christ (Messiah in Hebrew). This is the very basis of the religion. And since the Christ/Messiah, by definition, is the messenger of God Himself made flesh, it would follow to be also the teachings of God.

Yet we, as humans, appear to have perverted this simple concept in so many different ways, that it is no wonder the religion is despised by so many. That quote mentioned by Walking Fox was indeed very appropriate. My concern is why has this happened?

Since the beginning of the species (as far as history can recall anyway), men have had a desire to control other men. This is manifested in slavery, money, law, indentured servitude, and outright torture of those who disagree. Yet I have always found it strange that on the first page of the Bible it mentions Adam (man) as having dominion over everything except other men.

I think this explains why religion has become so far removed from its foundation. Humans seem to want those things which they cannot have the most, and ignore the things they can have. We also, as physical creatures in body, tend to see things which are physical easier than things which are spiritual, and thusly, true faith in the unseen is a rare commodity. So religious leaders, who are men, will naturally tend to gravitate their desire towards the physical rather than the spiritual, and toward the one thing that they are forbidden to have: control over others.

Jesus despised the priests. Jesus spent his time with the poor, the lame, the sick, the unclean. Jesus preached forgiveness, compassion, mercy, and faith.

Too many churches preach compliance with doctrine, allegiance to a body of men, and condemnation. That is not following Jesus the Christ, and therefore not Christianity. Labels notwithstanding of course.

One other point I would like to make here: People tend to group together much more tightly when confronted by a perceived attack. Whenever a statue of the Ten Commandments is removed, whenever a cross display is declared 'unconstitutional', whenever someone is punished for saying a prayer, or whenever someone is ridiculed for taking a Christian stance, it tends to cause others who consider themselves Christian to band together in order to fight off that perceived assault. In doing so, they become easier to control through abuse of the religion. And ironically, this control, exercised by fanatics, leads to the very intolerance and condemnation of others that typically brought about the anger toward the religion, and thus the perceived attack.

I kill one of yours; you kill two of mine; I kill four of yours; soon no one is left. That was the way of organized crime; that is the way of humanity. I pray we change that way before there is no way left for us.

TheRedneck

I quit smoking a long time ago.

To his defence, my sister saw an unedited version of David Koresh, where he (supposedly) said he was god, but, what she saw was him saying, "it's not like I'm saying "I'm God"
But, the media erased the "It's not like."...

If that wasn't true, what else about Waco???

There are many truths, yet undiscovered!

Originally posted by TheWalkingFox
So because these three groups chose to not pay taxes (And in fact further broke the law by cheating the system to steal the taxes you and I paid...) they're heroes?

Even though I don't agree with what these groups do (marrying and abusing children, mass murder and suicide ect.) there is nothing wrong with not paying taxes, there is no law that says that anyone has to pay taxes. I don't have to pay, you don't have to pay, nobody has to pay. There is no law, google "Freedom to Fascism" there's avideo that goes over all that. I think we shoulf stay on topic though. I think the Government is a reason why the church has been degraded into what it is, the fact that people are worshiping the pastors and the pastors accept this is another reason (i.e. Joel Olsteen and the Pope), they put people before God, that is a big downfall of many church goers. Greed is another eason why the church is going downhill, it's become more of a business of making money than reaching the lost.

-Jimmy

reply to post by TheWalkingFox

Any other Christians here puffing the pipe that this fellow is toking from?

That depends, mine says 'Marlboro' on the box.

I think what he was trying to convey was that the religious cults are vilified by the government and the MSM. While I have no doubt this is true, I also don't think of these as heroes either. The latest fiasco in TX included a 911 call from a 16 y/o girl who was forced to marry an adult man against her wishes. That is against the law, and should these charges prove true, that should be punished to the fullest extent of the law. I'm no fan of cults.

Maybe his has the word 'Camel' on it...?

TheRedneck

reply to post by TheWalkingFox


I never said they didn't pay taxes. Just that with their life styles, "communal living", they have much less income.
Has any of those groups ever been charged with tax evasion?
Please provide a Link.
The latest Texas group wouldn't have broke the questionable law.*On age of consent and marriage. If they had been in another state.
Rather hypercritical of the government to abuse over 400 children by taking them away from their parents over a minor*, supposed infraction of one. One that was probably a "false flag".
* Why would the government be legislating the age that young women
are illegible for marriage?
Was the girl 15.11months? 16 is the age of consent, for marriage. Why was no such girl ever found?

[edit on 15-4-2008 by Howie47]

reply to post by Howie47


Well she was being "abused" from what I hear, I believe it though, it is a rather sexually deviant cult that they were in, the peligamy is also illegal. Although I don't agree with there religion, they still have the right to practise it as long as they don't hurt anyone.

reply to post by TheRedneck


The question about cults is. Who or what is a cult? Who does the finger pointing? At first a cult was a group that blindly followed one charismatic leader. Many mainstream religions could fit that definition. Groups that separate themselves from the mainstream. Regardless of what kind of
leadership they do or don't employ. Are the one's now label as a cult.
If you think, or live outside secular world's mind set. You are a cult.
Pretty soon most every religion, except the ones with government "permits". Will be labeled a cult.
It's back to the USSR. They couldn't take over the world using them.
So they've switched to a more subtle approach. Subterfuge!

reply to post by Howie47


Very true, Christianity was considered a cult at one time believe it or not. I guess any religion that is not excepted by the majority is a cult now days.
Some are dangerous, some are interesting and some are just plain silly

Well she was being "abused" from what I hear

reply to post by jimmyjackblack


That is the accusation. Innocent until proved guilty. The last I heard they
couldn't even find such a girl. Any enemy could call up and make such an accusation. But the government were looking for something. So they could pounce. That is why a , "false flag", is very possible.
Also teenage girls of that age, will cry abuse, over just not being able to get their way. It is a very thin line the accusers are walking here.
At the least, they have grossly over reacted.

reply to post by TheWalkingFox

You have to be "godless" to believe that these three groups - all of which worshiped a human being as god incarnate, all of which indulged in child marriage, all of which have followers ready to maim or kill each other at a single word from their "prophet" are bad?

None of these groups worshiped any of there leaders as God.
An invented lie to justify their persecution! Even if that did happen,
it wouldn't be a crime. That is pure fear mongering!
A person was deemed an adult at age 12 in the old testament. Up to about 100 years ago. 13 year old girls regularly got married. Kept them out of trouble. Kept them from becoming street walkers and drug addicts.
I suppose the godless love their teenage prostitutes. It's OK for them to indulge in that. But not for religious people to allow there young daughters to get married. Guess the system forgot the meaning of the story. "Romeo and Juliet".
Your last quote is utter rubbish, designed to insight hatred and fear!
You have not a ounce of proof.

[edit on 15-4-2008 by Howie47]

So I just want to make sure here.

Here, we have Howie - a Christian, of course - stating that there is nothing wrong with an adult man marrying, and subsequently screwing multiple twelve year olds, many of whom are in fact that man's daughter. He defends these practices, and goes on to say that you should do it, too, so your daughter won't be a drug addict and a prostitute. Also that every girl of this age will claim sexual abuse for any slight offense of not getting her way.

He further denies documented reality regarding these sects and their reverence for the leaders - Jim Jones, Vernon Howell (David Koresh), and Warren Jeffs, to follow the examples given. He claims this is all made-up by "the government" - from the confessions of these men, to their writings and video tapes and eyewitness accounts and mounds of uncontested evidence. In effect, he is creating his own alternate reality to justify the belief that these pedophiles and abusers were modern-day heroes.

Aaaaaand following the first act is a period of acquiescing silence from this board's numerous Christians. I do thank Jimmy and TheRedneck for at least poking this stuff with a stick, though.

By the way, Howie, which last quote? The one about pipe-smoking? I'm just curious about how many of the locals applaud your stance.

reply to post by TheWalkingFox


Your depravity, unconscionable misinterpretation, and abuse of common decorum, knows no bounds. You probably never got anything straight, in your whole life. Ignore list for you. You sneaky Fox.