Whats the Truth about Tibet?

I need everyone's input on this subject.

What is the truth about Tibet and the "Free Tibet" campaign?

What do we really know about the whole thing?

Obviously trouble is brewing, and at times like these we need to pick a side.
But who should I believe?

Well, let me put you in my seat, so that you may enlighten, correct, and/or inform me of the real crisis happening right now.

What do I know about Tibet?
Well, according to Wiki, I know that,

Tibet proclaimed its independence from China in 1911 on the eve of the fall of the Qing dynasty and the subsequent internal turmoil.

Tibet remained a defacto independent state until shortly after the conclusion of the Chinese civil war, when on October 1, 1949, the People's Republic of China was formally proclaimed in Beijing and the following year launched an armed invasion of Tibet. The Chinese army of 40,000 men routed the unprepared defending Tibetan army of only 5,000 near the city of Chamdo. The defeat subsequently led to the signing of the Seventeen point agreement by the Tibetan Government.
Source

ok... so Tibet was once a part of China and then declared its independence after the end of the last Dynasty.
Well, I can see how change can be good, so if China was oppressing them, good for Tibet. But I can also see how China would get mad... it would be like California saying, "F**k the US and the Bush administration... we're making our own country!"
Many people would agree with it, and many people would disagree with it.
So, China disagreed and took Tibet back over...
Which is probably what the US would do in the same position.

Ok, thats that.
So, what else do I know?
Well, after doing some research, I know that the "govt." of Tibet wants the UN and the International Community to:

1. Immediately dispatch independent fact finding delegations to Tibet to let the world know the truth;
2. Immediately persuade China to allow free press to visit and cover the whole of Tibet;
3. Immediately urge China to end the brutal killings in the whole of Tibet;
4. Immediately urge China to release all the Tibetans arrested and imprisoned;
5. Immediately urge China to allow international medical teams, such as Red Cross and Medicines Sans Frontiers to take care of injured Tibetans, who are too scared to visit hospitals for fear of being arrested;
6. Immediately urge China to allow free movement of people and provide access to daily needs, such as food and water.
Source

fair enough, I agree with all those things... if that is really the case.
I don't know, so I'll assume it is.

Ok, what else do I know?
Well, I know that the US supports Tibet and that celebs and other powerful figures also support Tibet...

These statements are backed up by the acts of the Chinese govt. against the Tibetan people, and the Dalai Lama's request of the Tibetans for peaceful protests...

The Panchen Lama is considered one of Tibet's most important religious figures. Determined to control religion in Tibet, the Chinese authorities kidnapped Gedhun Choekyi Nyima and his family in 1995, just days after he was recognized by the Dalai Lama as the 11th Panchen Lama. Despite repeated appeals to confirm his well-being, no international agency or human rights organization has been granted contact with Gedhun Choekyi Nyima or his family. To date, their well-being and whereabouts remains unconfirmed.

Suspicions that the Panchen Lama had been kidnapped by Chinese authorities were confirmed in 1996, when the Chinese government admitted to the UN Committee on the Rights of the Child that it held the boy and his family in "protective custody."

Dalai Lama Pleads for Peaceful Dialogue on Tibet

ok, so at this point, it seems to me that he, Tibet is under Chinese oppression, they wanted out a long tome ago, let them go!

Well, then I had to ask myself, "Hey, why are you listening to American media?"
Has America finally got something right?
Are we actually fighting for a just cause?
Could it really be that we want Tibet free?
... or could there possibly be some underlying purpose behind all this...
and low and behold, upon further research, the eastern nations are blaming the western nations for a CIA coverup and one sided opinions on the Tibet campaign in the media...

What!? CIA coverup?
ok. ok. I'll look into it...

oh, well, maybe they're right?...
The CIA's Sercret War in Tibet
ok... well, what does youtube have to say?
people can speak their minds on youtube, surly some people have to know about this propaganda campaign put on by the western nations!
and heres what I found:




Wow...
so know I'm being led to believe that the Dalai Lama is actually in cahoots with the CIA and was an oppressive leader.
China is helping Tibet.
And Tibet is better off after Chinese authorities took over...

But if thats true, why do the Tibetan people protest?

Heres what one of the youtube video posters mentioned:

The West is trying to demonize China. Why? To ensure an upper-handed position economically, politically, and socially.

Too many harbor strong opinions about Tibet, yet know nothing more than the few slogans offered by the mass-media outlets.

The media screams:
"They killed innocent monks!" - but those "innocent" monks and other young hooligans killed innocent Chinese before a single shot was fired on them.
"The Chinese are oppressive" - do you consider freeing over 95% of Tibetans from slavery, building a state of the art infrastructure, and a new economy oppressive?
"The Chinese suppress Tibetan Buddhism" - then why have the Chinese spent a fortune restoring ancient monasteries and places of religions significance?

China doesn't SPIN NEWS like we do. Their silence is too often mistaken as admission of guilt. Don't be another uninformed drone. Do everyone a favor and learn truths before forming opinions.

Here's to Peace & Harmony! The 2008 Beijing Olympics deserve support!
Source

So, now I'm here, asking you, the ATS community, to help me out.
Whats really going on here?
People need to pick sides, yes, but which side to choose?
If we support the freeing of Tibet, are we just a pawn in the US's engame plan?

I shared all I know about the subject with you guys.
Now its time to deny ignorance and get down to the truth...
so, Whats the Truth about Tibet?

please, help.






[edit on 9-4-2008 by Odessy]

mods, I'll take your opinions on this issue as well.

please.

I just found these dates leaning towards the free Tibet campaign:

1949 China invaded and occupied Uighur.
1950 China entered Korean War.
1951 China invaded Tibet. 1,200,000 Tibetans was killed by China.
1959 China disputed and the border disputed with India.
1969 China invaded the Soviet Union (Danmansky island).
1979 China fought against Vietnam as "Punishment".
1992 China insisted on owning Spratly Islands & Paracel Islands without permission.
1995 China occupied Mischief Reef that the Philippines had historically owned.
1996 China launched the missile in Taiwan Straits. China threatened Taiwan.
1997 China insists on the owning right to the Scarboro atoll that the Philippines has historically owned.
1997 China insisted on owning the territory of Japan (Senkaku Islands).
2000 The warship of China rounded in surroundings of the Japanese Islands. China surveyed the oilfield near Senkaku Islands.
2004 The nuclear submarine of China intruded into Japanese territorial waters.
2005 A Chinese government controlled information, and a Japanese embassy was attacked.
2008 Chinese People's Liberation Army killed Tibetan Protesters in Lhasa Tibet.
Source



I dont seem to be getting any responses on this increasingly important issue.
Perhaps it's because many of you also don't know how to feel about the subject.

But I know that there are ATS members that have an opinion so if you also want to find out more about the "free Tibet" movement, please FLAG the thread to get it more attention.
Perhaps then people with opinions will see the thread.







[edit on 9-4-2008 by Odessy]

Great work Odessy! I too am ashamed to say I am pretty ignorant when it comes to having a full understanding of the full issues of Tibet and China.
The info you have showed is a new view on the subject.
I am very interested in hearing more on this subject.
Flagged indeed

reply to post by Kashodi


thanks, I just really want to get to the bottom of this matter.

I would hate to go out in a "free Tibet" T shirt and be completely ignorant to the real truth going on.

anyway, here is a CNN report of the situation...
not sure how to take it though, as it might be our biased western opinion.

... seems legit to me though...

they say the Dalai Lama fled to India, and one of my previous videos say he was payed by the CIA to move to India.

As of right now, it seems to me that if the Tibetan people would be oppressed by the Dalai Lama regaining control and the reinstating of the Caste system, then why are THEY protesting against China?

I mean, they must know something we dont...

[edit on 9-4-2008 by Odessy]

What can I say other than you're on the right track. Most will attack those that bring up the serfdom rule of the lama class over its impoverished slaves but it is a fact. Freeing Tibet could mean that (according to History) putting it back into the hands of another controller. Just one that wraps itself in spirituality.

Sadly people believe that if someone wears a robe, white collar, or a golden hat, then clasps their hands together and walks around talking about love and peace they must be straight from "heaven". The celebrities add weight to this spiritual confusion thanks to this Hollywood culture we live in. How can you be a Buddhist and a millionaire?

The people of Tibet have always been under a form of control. Whether its the Lama class or the oppressive Chinese government. They are the ones manipulated and used while powerful forces (this includes the U.S.) play games with their lives.

The problem is most of the new-agers and neo-hippies know nothing of the history of Tibet but jump on the bandwagon because it's cool. These were the same knuckleheads I saw complaining about feeding starving third-world children genetically altered grains from a posh beach house party.

You know...the peace loving protesters that attacked people carrying an Olympic torch.

With the unemployed, homeless and desperate growing by the millions in the States you'd think we would have something else closer to home to scream about.

Maybe that is the point though.

Groovy.

- Lee

I read somewhere their monks sleep out on a subzero ledge once a year in a white cotton sheer bed gear. For sh's and giggles. To prove themselves above temperatures. They are some interesting folk to say the least. Being slovak, I probably have a few genes in common. LOL LA, I hear Madonna is really into Kabbala lately. Whatever.
The dessimated, homeless, unemployed, strong box seekers will have a voice someday.

[edit on 9-4-2008 by jpm1602]

[edit on 9-4-2008 by jpm1602]

lee anoma,

The whole millionaire Buddhist thing, well, spirituality is internal, so I dont think its a bad thing if people with money decide to walk on that path... we dont know whats in their hearts.

But the rest of what you say is true, about jumping on the bandwagon.
However, the thing thats making me lean towards a free Tibet is the Tibetan people in general.
Are they protesting for a free Tibet?
It would seem so.
and would the Dalai Lama reinstate the caste system?
If so, then why would the Tibetans protest China?
I mean, that would mean about 90% would be servants again.
... but religion is a strange thing...
I say if they want a free Tibet, let them have it...
but how do we know thats what they want, and not just what we're being told?



jpm1602,

I dont really know what to say to your comment.

[edit on 9-4-2008 by Odessy]

I will withhold myself from giving any inputs, because I will be called being an agent again in ATS then

However, you can check some other discussions in ATS:

www.abovetopsecret.com...
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reply to post by Odessy

Have star and flag from me for you great work:
very interesting thread, thanks for sharing it.

Odessey, you never have to say anything. Or something. Feel it, give it.

Originally posted by IchiNiSan
I will withhold myself from giving any inputs, because I will be called being an agent again in ATS then

However, you can check some other discussions in ATS:

www.abovetopsecret.com...
www.abovetopsecret.com...&colorshift=yes
www.abovetopsecret.com...
www.abovetopsecret.com...
www.abovetopsecret.com...
www.abovetopsecret.com...
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Thanks for the all the info!

I'll start reading!

reply to post by IchiNiSan


Well, after those threads, I'm still at a standoff...

seems many ATSers also have mixed feeling towards the subject.

But one question I have is, if the West is in some sort of propaganda to support Tibet and its cause, then why do we see footage of American cops physically harassing Tibet protesters? Cops Beat Peaceful Tibetan Protestors, NYC

Looks like San Fransisco is gearing up for protests soon.

Its the last stop of the Olympic torch before it goes to China.

In France, they had to stop the last part of the tour as officers had to extinguish the flame at least 5 times... exactly what the protesters were trying to do.

Seems that a lot of people want to see Tibet free... unfortunately, I think a lot of information has remained lost because of this...

All I want to know at this point is if the Tibetans want to be an independent state again... if so, then I'll support them... not the Dalai Lama, China, or any other Govt... but the people...

Originally posted by Odessy

Well, I can see how change can be good, so if China was oppressing them, good for Tibet. But I can also see how China would get mad... it would be like California saying, "F**k the US and the Bush administration... we're making our own country!"
Many people would agree with it, and many people would disagree with it.
So, China disagreed and took Tibet back over...
Which is probably what the US would do in the same position.

This comparison, if it wasn't so silly, would be really offensive. First, California would never want to leave the USA because Cali rocks and so does America.
In America you can wave any flag you like.... even a Tibetan flag. In America you can freely protest. In China all the athletes have a gag order. Or just try a big public protest.... see if you don't get run over by a tank.
In America you are free to come and go. In China try to go to Nepal and see if you survive.

reply to post by Odessy


Because American cops love beating the crap out of people. It's not a job like a firefighter or paramedic, where you're actually signing up for the benefit of the community. People who become cops do so to have a badge and legal use of weaponry whenever they get annoyed with something.

Why don't you read some actual legitimate books on Chinese and Tibetan and world history instead of asking for the "real story" from a bunch of clowns on a website about conspiracy theories?

To get you started, Tibet was never really a part of China. It didn't become "part of China" until it was invaded and conquered by the Mongols, who then put Tibet under its Chinese jurisdiction for simplicity's sake.

People should be allowed the right to self-determination. The Tibetans should be allowed to exercise that right.

Originally posted by Riposte
People should be allowed the right to self-determination. The Tibetans should be allowed to exercise that right.

Agreed...no matter what the history between Tibet and China, if today the people of Tibet wish to be free, they should have that right.

For that matter, if the people of California wish to be free, they should have the right to break away from the US. Our government is supposed to derive its power from the consent of the governed. What happens if we revoke that consent?

All people have the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, and if a government is interfering in any way with this, it is a bad government.

Originally posted by IchiNiSan
I will withhold myself from giving any inputs, because I will be called being an agent again in ATS then

I can't help but think that was directed at me, Ichi.

I admitted that you're probably not an agent, and I was just busting your balls.

Anyway, I agree 100% with you Odessy, I don't know enough to take a position on Tibet. The info seems pretty sketchy from both sides. What Ichi is talking about, in case you didn't catch it on the other threads, is Internet Brigades. Paid government agents that flood internet blog sites and forums with pro-PRC propaganda and positions, in an attempt to drown out legitimate discussion with bullying and such. There were several new accounts (NOT you Ichi, relax ) that popped up shortly after the Tibet thing first occured, with very similar posting styles and were very hostile right off the bat with their first post, then disappeared. They fit that bill perfectly.

reply to post by Odessy


So you read some Western material on Tibet... and in agreement with Western Media.

THEN.. and let me get this perfectly straight....


You watched a YOUTUBE VIDEO .. and believe YouTube to be a better source for information then News outlets? .. And that this has persuaded you to believe very, very, VERY VERY apparent CHINESE propaganda?

Wow.

Thats all I will add... just Wow..