Raelian Conspiracy to Overthrow Religion

reply to post by ThreeNF

Not just my opinion.

It undermines the value of human life. You are creating humans for selfish purposes.

Statement of Thomas H. Murray, Ph.D.
Commissioner, National Bioethics Advisory Commission
Testimony before the Subcommittee on Oversight and Investigations
United States House of Representatives

The Commission discovered that the potential ability to clone human beings through somatic cell nuclear transfer techniques raises a host of complex scientific, religious, legal, and ethical issues—some new, and some old. Especially noteworthy was the diversity of views that we heard among religious scholars, indeed even among those within the same religious tradition. Although we did not agree on all of the ethical issues surrounding the cloning of human beings, we nonetheless unanimously concluded that given the state of science, any attempt to create a child using somatic cell nuclear transfer, whether in the public or private sector, is uncertain in its outcome, is unacceptably dangerous to the fetus, and therefore, morally unacceptable.

bioethics.georgetown.edu...





[edit on 4/18/2008 by Bigwhammy]

Originally posted by ThreeNF
reply to post by Bigwhammy

 

The last I heard was that there were 13 clones, but I really can't say for sure. Clonaid is a separate entity from the Raelian Movement. From what I understand it has been the parent's decision to not reveal the identity of the cloned children they are raising, out of fear that it would destroy the child's upbringing.

So Rael is cruel and perverse enough to have 13 human children cloned when there are huge scientific and ethical concerns.

Issues Raise by Human Cloning Research

The rate of failure in animal cloning should serve as a
fire bell in the night. Behind the headlines of apparent
success in animal cloning lies a failure rate as high as 95 to
97 percent.

Would human cloning lessen the worth of individuals and
diminish respect for human life by turning procreation into a
manufacturing process?

Is there a bright line between the joining of a man and a
woman's reproductive cells and the replication of just one
person's genetic material?

Is the one creation and the other mere construction?
The Christian philosopher G.K. Chesterton wrote, ``The
whole difference between construction and creation is exactly
this, that a thing constructed can only be loved after it is
constructed, but a thing created is loved before it exists.''

No don't let these issues slow you down Rael... after all, the clock is ticking and you will die one day. The technology to make instant human bodies and transfer memories obviously is not going to happen in Rael's lifetime so what then?

Yes - the Raelians are certainly a deadly threat to humanity as we know it - so dangerous in fact, that this frightening video of Rael was recently released onto Youtube to illustrate the terrifying prospects. I will warn you however: If you are under 18, or have young children in the room - it may be wise to make sure they are not around when you click this link.

You have been warned...


www.youtube.com...

[edit on 18-4-2008 by jimbo999]

reply to post by Bigwhammy


Umm, Rael didn't clone anything

Mod edit- Please read: One line responses



[edit on 4/18/2008 by Cuhail]

reply to post by ThreeNF


Oh for some weird reason I though he was the leader of the Raelian movement. I thought he used Raelian funds to start clonaid.

Of course he did. It's all his idea. After all the aliens contacted him personally with the instructions. Wonder why they didn't tell him how to make these instant bodies and transfer memories while they were at it... hmmmmmmmmm?

On May 31, 1997, an issue of the popular science magazine New Scientist said that the International Raëlian Movement was starting a company to fund the research and development of human cloning. This alarmed bioethicists who were opposed to such plans. They warned lawmakers against failing to regulate human cloning. At the time, European countries such as Britain had banned human cloning, but the United States had merely a moratorium on the use of federal funds for human cloning research. Former United States president Bill Clinton requested that private companies pass their own moratorium. Claude Vorilhon, the founder of Raëlism, was opposed to this move and denied that the technology used to clone was inherently dangerous.

en.wikipedia.org...

Originally posted by Bigwhammy
reply to post by ThreeNF

 

Not just my opinion.

It undermines the value of human life. You are creating humans for selfish purposes.

Statement of Thomas H. Murray, Ph.D.
Commissioner, National Bioethics Advisory Commission
Testimony before the Subcommittee on Oversight and Investigations
United States House of Representatives

The Commission discovered that the potential ability to clone human beings through somatic cell nuclear transfer techniques raises a host of complex scientific, religious, legal, and ethical issues—some new, and some old. Especially noteworthy was the diversity of views that we heard among religious scholars, indeed even among those within the same religious tradition. Although we did not agree on all of the ethical issues surrounding the cloning of human beings, we nonetheless unanimously concluded that given the state of science, any attempt to create a child using somatic cell nuclear transfer, whether in the public or private sector, is uncertain in its outcome, is unacceptably dangerous to the fetus, and therefore, morally unacceptable.

bioethics.georgetown.edu...





[edit on 4/18/2008 by Bigwhammy]

Out of curiosity, do you even understand what that says? Let me highlight a particular phrase that stood out.

"... given the state of science, any attempt to create a child using somatic cell nuclear transfer ..."

Again, do you know what that means? I'm going to guess not, and I'm going to say that "somatic cell nuclear transfer" will become old school technology with respect to cloning in the future

reply to post by ThreeNF


I do understand. You are side stepping. You just admitted that Rael's group clonaid claims to already have cloned 13 people!!! And that was the state of the technology when he claimed it. Unethical and horribly irresponsible if its true.

However, It's probably just a lie.

[edit on 4/18/2008 by Bigwhammy]

So either Rael is an out right liar, or he is a mad guru with a team of unethical scientists working for him.

Human Cloning and Human Dignity:

Given the enormous importance of what is at stake, we believe that the so-called "precautionary principle" should be our guide in this arena. This principle would suggest that scientists, technologists, and, indeed, all of us should be modest in claiming to understand the many possible consequences of any profound alteration of human procreation, especially where there are not compelling reasons to proceed. Lacking such understanding, no one should take action so drastic as the cloning of a human child. In the absence of the necessary human wisdom, prudence calls upon us to set limits on efforts to control and remake the character of human procreation and human life.

It is not only a matter of prudence. Cloning-to-produce-children would also be an injustice to the cloned child – from the imposition of the chromosomes of someone else, to the intentional deprivation of biological parents, to all of the possible bodily and psychological harms that we have enumerated in this chapter. It is ultimately the claim that the cloned child would be seriously wronged – and not only harmed in body – that would justify government intervention. It is to this question – the public policy question of what the government should and can do to prevent such injustice – that we will turn in Chapter Seven. But, regarding the ethical assessment, Members of the Council are in unanimous agreement that cloning-to-produce-children is not only unsafe but also morally unacceptable and ought not to be attempted.

www.bioethics.gov...

[edit on 4/19/2008 by Bigwhammy]

From the clonaid website, the Raelians claim to have 5 clone babies.

CLONAID's™ scientists have done extensive research in order to define the best cloning process, adapted to human cells. We are very happy that we have been able to give birth successfully to five clone babies. We are now offering our services on a worldwide basis, in strict respect of local laws. If you want to reserve and be among the next ones to receive this service, please contact us.

Against the advice of the American Medical Association and every other responsible medical authority.

The American Medical Association holds four points of reason why cloning should not take place. They are:
1) there are unknown physical harms introduced by cloning,
2) unknown psychosocial harms introduced by cloning, including violations of autonomy and privacy,
3) impacts on familial and societal relations, and
4) potential effects on the human gene pool (Council on Ethical and Judicial Affairs 4-6). We just simply do not know the harms that will come from cloning.

The Human Fertilization and Embryology Authority agrees with the general public impression that to clone human beings would be ethically unacceptable as a matter of principle.

www.indianchild.com...

reply to post by Bigwhammy


You seem to be thinking very locally here. What ever happened to the "world view" you were talking about in a previous thread? Just because America says something is wrong, doesn't mean it is. And just because your moral belief is that cloning is wrong, doesn't mean that you're right. You have every right to be against it, but as long as the Raelians, (or Clonaid, rather), are doing it in a place where it is not illegal, then there's not really much of an issue.

Personally, I think people are scared of cloning because of its obvious implications: if we clone a person does that person have a soul? And if not, how are they alive? And if so, did we just "play God"? Either way, the implications for religion, and in particular for Christianity, are potentially damning. I remember when I was in Seminary I asked my teacher if a person were cloned if it would have a soul. He completely ignored the question. At first I thought he did that because he just didn't know, but the fact is that the answer to the question scares the faithful. It scared me, after all. I just didn't realize it at the time.

I can see why you might think the Raelians are conspiring against the Christian faith now.

Just remember that not everyone has the same moral structure as you do. Morals may not be literally subjective, (though I think they are), but even if they're not literally, they are in this life. Some groups of people think it's right to do something that you think is wrong, but the only person who's really wrong is the person trying to stop somebody else from doing what they think is right, (even if they're really wrong).

I also was blown away by you saying certain things are impossible, with regards to the technology the Raelians are striving towards. First of all, doesn't the Bible say that with God, all things are possible? I assume what you meant to say was that because the Raelians are not with God, it is impossible for them to do it. But also, you have to realize that twenty years ago some people were saying the same thing about some of the technology we have today. Most things that were in "science fiction" books fifty years ago are a reality today. What we see as impossible today will be common reality tomorrow. A small glimpse into the past:

"Heavier-than-air flying machines are impossible."

--Lord Kelvin, president, Royal Society, 1895.

"Drill for oil? You mean drill into the ground to try and find oil?
You're crazy."

--Drillers who Edwin L. Drake tried to enlist to his project to drill
for oil in 1859.

"Louis Pasteur's theory of germs is ridiculous fiction".

--Pierre Pachet, Professor of Physiology at Toulouse, 1872

"Everything that can be invented has been invented."

--Charles H. Duell, Commissioner, U.S. Office of Patents, 1899.

"640K ought to be enough for anybody."

--Bill Gates, 1981

reply to post by an3rkist

as long as the Raelians, (or Clonaid, rather), are doing it in a place where it is not illegal, then there's not really much of an issue.

Oh as long as its legal you're ok with it? I'm ok you're ok la dee daaa...

Sorry it's a big issue.

What about in 10 years when the clones develop genetic diseases that were unforeseen by Raels mad scientists? That's what the leading experts in the field are waring against. We do not know enough about the long term implications. We could seriously screw humanity. Rael doesn't care.

All the top scientists are in agreement it is not safe or ethical at this point in time. That does not seem to phase Rael in his quest for immortality. In spite of all the warnings, he claims to have already done it. That's the point.

Here is a great summary of what the Raelian message is about. I particularly like this statement,

"RAEL brings us a new vision and a new understanding that liberates us
from tradition, habits and social conditioning."

Raelian Message

Originally posted by Daniem

The serpent was trying to help the humans get the knowledge. Yet you say its a bad thing. Why should learning knowledge be a sin? Seems like a method of control to me;

The tree is known as Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. They were given The Tree Of Life in which all was they/we needed. The tree of the knowledge of good and evil was the antithesis of the tree of life. One sustained life, the other brought death. If the tree of life represented the grace of God, then the tree of the knowledge of good and evil must depict something contrary to grace.

The tree of life in the middle of the garden. Its centrality speaks of both its importance and its availability. Adam and Eve had unhindered fellowship with God who was the source of their life. As long as they desired, they could sustain that relationship. Eating of that tree, they would never die AND never be separated from their Life-giver and Sustainer. Sadly after the "big Bite" they were banished from the garden as we know and a cherubim with an omnidirectional "flaming" sword to guard against any future entrance into the garden.

The "serpent" knew if he could, as he did, tempt humans we still won't receive any knowledge. Why would he trade that for his love of destruction on humankind? If Adam & Eve received great wisdom (eg as Solomon had and he still messed up THOUGH HE HAD CONTROL OVER DEMONS, they get their payback) So they would have rid of Satan right there. We are first in God's eyes and certain Angels did not like that idea hence the fall of millions...if not billions and their "jealousy" towards us. Actually their hate towards humans.

God had a plan ,He is Omniscient and knew what steps would be taken by Lucifer. The tree was a test in which we failed. If we had "knowledge" we would have destroyed ourselves, or better certain wack jobs would have done so a long time ago.

We would have played gods ourselves and used all the things we cannot comprehend/understand today against each other, the spiritual side. We would not only fight demons but Angels as well, well we would think we can

Thankfully He gave us another chance ,"To him who conquers I will grant to eat of the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God" (Rev. 2:7).





[edit on 4/27/2008 by qonone]

[edit on 4/27/2008 by qonone]