Scientific Evidence Of Life On Mars!! Why is NASA Obfuscating The Truth?

It took me some time to find a thread I felt inclined to reply to. As I read the posts I thought it time. While I do not admit to ANY degree or employment in the sciences, but just about every publication in the US on Science is on my coffee table or bookmarked on the net and when I'm not sleeping - i'm reading.

With all the information that comes out of NASA, JPL, Goddard and (most especially) Malin Space - please have your salt shaker in hand and be generouse with it. Through my real job, I got to know several people at JPL and NASA over the years. I even have had email conversations (with a lead scientist on a recent mission) that were abruptly stopped when I asked an apparent wrong question. The bottom line - certain people know the truth, the majority don't know a thing.

I've read over the past year and a half many of you that discredit many individuals - Richard Hoagland comes to mind. While I've enjoyed several dinner conversations with Mr. Hoagland, I agree some of his theories are questionable. I have found many NOT to be. Life on Mars? YES. However, what KIND of life is the question and when? I think the question is when will those "powers at be" decide that mankind can understand and accept the fact that there is life elsewhere in the universe.

My final question: When will the Brookings Report (presented on April 18, 1961 - almost 47 years ago) be updated??

Thank you for your patience to my rambling.

Excellent thread Mike.

I leave you this info, i started a thread some while ago, with little response (also based in the Levin investigations):

2007 Martian Life Reports - Oficial Argentina Investigation

[edit on 7-4-2008 by Orion437]

Originally posted by waffles
Did anybody even read my goddamn post? You are the most unscientific bunch of kooks I've ever chanced to hear opinionate, and I thought *I* was a kook.

...

Let me restate, since I think my post was too scientific for this crowd.

...
You people need to read a 6th grade textbook.

I think you should maybe do more research before blowing your top, you are ignoring the effect of salt in your equations. Salt will not only raise the boiling point of water but drops the freezing point as well. What's more the air pressure on Mars at sea level (nominally average) is between 0.6 - 1kp - variation seasonally - which puts the boiling point of water above 0 degrees celcius. at times, and more likely in the lower regions. Numerous salt deposits have already been found in teh form of chlorides and bromides in rock samples taken by Spirit and Opportunity.

It may be fleeting but it is scientific, so don't go attacking everyone just because some photoshopped pictures annoy you.







[edit on 7-4-2008 by Shere Khaan]

reply to post by seridium



Don't worry Seridium, vze2xjjk is a complete joke. No one pays any attention to his MS paint pictures. You should do the same thing I did and add this guy to your ignore list.


[edit on 8-4-2008 by rocksarerocks]

Originally posted by rocksarerocks
reply to post by seridium

 

Don't worry Seridium, vze2xjjk is a complete joke. No one pays any attention to his MS paint pictures. You should do the same thing I did and add this guy to your ignore list.


[edit on 8-4-2008 by rocksarerocks]

Please leave the mods to handle this issue, rocksarerocks.


[edit on 8/4/2008 by internos]

Excellent, definitely deserves funding.

reply to post by Orion437


You should have used at least two exclamation points and a question mark.

Although I think Mikesingh did a good job gathering information to present along with the article, I think this thread is over-hipped.

The opinion of Dr. Levin is a little different from what he had at the time of the Viking missions, when he said he did not had enough data to know for sure if the results were because of biologic or chemical action, and now he still does not have certainties, only conjectures, because to be sure he (or anyone else) would need more Martian soil to test.

NASA did not "obfuscate" any truth at the time, and if they did then Dr. Levin did the same.

The fact that we may be ignorant of what happens does not mean that this is because someone is hiding it from us, it only means that we are not aware of that.

Originally posted by Shere Khaan

Originally posted by waffles
Did anybody even read my goddamn post? You are the most unscientific bunch of kooks I've ever chanced to hear opinionate, and I thought *I* was a kook.

...

Let me restate, since I think my post was too scientific for this crowd.

...
You people need to read a 6th grade textbook.

I think you should maybe do more research before blowing your top, you are ignoring the effect of salt in your equations. Salt will not only raise the boiling point of water but drops the freezing point as well. What's more the air pressure on Mars at sea level (nominally average) is between 0.6 - 1kp - variation seasonally - which puts the boiling point of water above 0 degrees celcius. at times, and more likely in the lower regions. Numerous salt deposits have already been found in teh form of chlorides and bromides in rock samples taken by Spirit and Opportunity.

It may be fleeting but it is scientific, so don't go attacking everyone just because some photoshopped pictures annoy you.

Its not so much the photoshopped pictures, its the complete lack of evidence of anything followed by everyone agreeing 'oh yeah, totally, yep, life everywhere, liquid water sure.'
I'm also not even using any 'equations.' I'm not talking about water literally BOILING, I'm talking about the vapor pressure being extremely high. Not only is the vapor pressure of ice reasonable at that ambient pressure, but the vapor pressure of water is nigh-boiling. I don't think you are clear on this- water that is right below boiling, is still evaporating at almost the same rate.

Of course salts and any dissolved material has an effect on boiling and freezing points, but salts will have virtually no effect on the vapor pressure at 1/100 of an atmosphere- it will still be extraordinarily high.

Originally posted by rikriley
Calm down a little waffles we appreciate your input.

We do Speak for yourself Rik I for one have had it up to here with self righteous pompous know it all PSEUDO scientist who's only contribution to such an excellent thread is to scream and yell and throw temper tantrums like a two year old...

Keep up the good work Mike At this rate your list of titles will be as long as mine

....while the warmest soil occasionally reaches +81° F (27° C) as estimated from Viking Orbiter Infrared Thermal Mapper.

Mars Temperature Overview

+81° F Downright tropical Anyone who thinks that liquid water can't exist at +81° F is quite 'balmy'

Originally posted by zorgon
+81° F Downright tropical

Anyone who thinks that liquid water can't exist at +81° F is quite 'balmy'

And anyone with your knowledge and access to information that ignores pressure is what?

You can do better than that.

Originally posted by ArMaP

Originally posted by zorgon
+81° F Downright tropical

Anyone who thinks that liquid water can't exist at +81° F is quite 'balmy'

And anyone with your knowledge and access to information that ignores pressure is what?

You can do better than that.

Good Lord! I wonder why there's so much pressure on pressure?? So in other words, there can't be any water on Mars because of the lack of pressure!!

In a nut shell, in layman's language, Less pressure --> water boiling off/evaporation/steam ----> water attenuation on Mars ----> all water finally lost in space -----> Mars devoid of water -----> Mars dead!! But wait! Let's see what NASA has to say...

The relationship to sunlight and latitude may indicate that ice plays a role in protecting the liquid water from evaporation until enough pressure builds for it to be released catastrophically down a slope. The relative freshness of these features might indicate that some of them are still active today--meaning that liquid water may presently exist in some areas at depths of less than 500 meters (1640 feet) beneath the surface of Mars.

Courtesy: MSSS

This picture (above), acquired by the Mars Global Surveyor (MGS) Mars Orbiter Camera (MOC) in May 2000 shows numerous examples of martian gullies that all start--or head--in a specific layer roughly a hundred meters beneath the surface of Mars. These features are located on the south-facing wall of a trough in the Gorgonum Chaos region, an area found to have many examples of gullies proposed to have formed by seepage and runoff of liquid water in recent times.

Cheers!




www.msss.com...
www.msss.com...

reply to post by mikesingh


Great post Mike, and great thread btw.

-fm

Originally posted by mikesingh
Good Lord! I wonder why there's so much pressure on pressure??

So in other words, there can't be any water on Mars because of the lack of pressure!!

No, I didn't said that.

The state of water (as that of any chemical product) depends on the temperature and the pressure, that is why the first way of measuring altitude were based on the time it took to boil a specific volume of distiled water.

Water on Mars' surface (if it exists) is very difficult to find because of that, not only is the temperaure usualy too low to have liquid water but also the pressure is very, very low when compared to that of the Earth.

Those "leaks" of what could be water happen in many places, and if you look with more attention you will see that in all photos of those "leaks" they look like they are coming from the top of the layer imediately bellow the surface, like if the present surface is covering a previous surface that had water or ice on it. **

This article explains one theory of the movement of water ice from pole to pole, and in that theory the water is never liquid, it passes from ice to vapour and back to ice.

** Is this sentence correct? It took me some time to write it because I could not be sure of it.

Evaporation is a factor of elevation and temperature. Using Mount Everest to compare with Hellas Planitia on MARS we must invert understanding of pressure because we don't have a six mile deep continent here on Earth.
Everest is 29,028 ft. high, low pressure very low boiling point.
Hellas is 30,000 ft. deep and it atmospheric pressure is considerably great then TPTB will let you think.

reply to post by Woodlock


Not elevation, pressure.

Have you ever heard the expression "standard temperature and pressure"?

Is used because there are some predefined conditions of temperature and pressure that are used so chemists (mostly) can use them as a rule.

Saying that water boils at 100ºC is only valid for a specific pressure, at higher pressures it boils at a higher temperature (that is why there is something called "pressure cooker"), at lower pressures it boils at a lower temperature.

Atmospheric pressure on Mars is much lower than that of Earth, not because of altitude but because Mars has a less dense atmosphere.

If you see this page you will see many readings for temperature and pressure on Mars. Compare it with Earth values and you will see the difference.

But you are right when you say the elevation makes a difference, the lower lands on Mars (and maybe the bottom of those famous pits) have a higher atmospheric pressure, but still much lower that what we have at see level on Earth.

Originally posted by ArMaP
[

Have you ever heard the expression "standard temperature and pressure"?

I

reply to post by ArMaP

ArMap
Can we agree that the higher you go in elevation here on Earth, generally speaking it gets easier for water to boil. canwecanwecanwe
Less air pressure, think? I know you know that you just act like you don't. Less air pressure mean faster evaporation, just generally, anomaly like. I know you agree.
It's just like the lower you go in elevation, you know , below sea level. See I said it; "below sea level." Mars does not have a sea level to go by ArMap. You act like you don't know this. Mars has some thing Earth does not have. SIX MILE DEEP CONTINENT. The atmosphere is much thicker and heaver down there. Makes a good case for water, I have the pic, and posted it on this thread.

The lower you go in elevation here on Earth the hotter it gets. ON MARS theres a continent six miles deep and it's hot as hell. Hellas-ashell

You don't get it ArMap! It's my pic. I made it from the MARCIA raw data! It's Hellas full of fog. SIX MILES DEEP of water fog.


[edit on 9-4-2008 by Woodlock]

Originally posted by Woodlock
Can we agree that the higher you go in elevation here on Earth, generally speaking it gets easier for water to boil.

Yes, we can.

Less air pressure, think?

Less air pressure. That is the reason.

I know you know that you just act like you don't.

I thought I said that, I don't know why you are saying that.

Less air pressure mean faster evaporation, just generally, anomaly like. I know you agree.

I don't understand that "anomaly like" part, so I cannot agree with something I don't understand.

It's just like the lower you go in elevation, you know , below sea level. See I said it; "below sea level." Mars does not have a sea level to go by ArMap. You act like you don't know this.

No, I don't, I thought I said that the higher the pressure the harder it is to evaporate (and boil) water.

Mars has some thing Earth does not have. SIX MILE DEEP CONTINENT. The atmosphere is much thicker and heaver down there.

It's much thicker than on the rest of Mars, but the atmosphere on Mars has only 1% of the pressure of that of the Earth.

You don't get it ArMap! It's my pic. I made it from the MARCIA raw data! It's Hellas full of fog. SIX MILES DEEP of water fog.

I saw "your" picture and I have seen some other pictures with fog and clouds, but there are two things I have never seen: proof that the fog is water fog, as you say and liquid water, and that was what we were talking about, not ice, not vapour, but liquid water.


I really don't understand what is the problem, if it is I that can not understand what you say (maybe because it's getting late or just because I do not understand English as good as I liked, I have some difficulty understanding what you write) or if it is you that do not understand or do not want to understand what I have said.

Show me data that says that there are conditions (temperature and pressure) on the surface of Mars (in any place, it could be Hellas basin) and will agree that there could be liquid water on Mars surface.

Did you saw that page with temperature and pressure data that I posted?

Showing fog or ice does not mean that there is liquid water on the surface, it may even help proving that water on Mars passes directly from ice to vapour.

Originally posted by ArMaP
I saw "your" picture and I have seen some other pictures with fog and clouds, but there are two things I have never seen: proof that the fog is water fog, as you say and liquid water, and that was what we were talking about, not ice, not vapour, but liquid water.


I

You seem straight forward.
I not here to nitpick.

But you said;
"your" picture?
Thee picture.
You've never seen a "picture" like mine, like this pic. I said "pic". Pic means; take a good look.
This pic is a photo made with a camera that comes from scientific correct data. You haven't seen a photograph, a digital image photograph like this. If you knew the work put it to this !?# get on my bad side? will u?


Tell me this. Just what do you see when you see all that white at the bottom of the photo.
You see what you want to see. You can deny my presumptions if you like. It's not my fault you don't add up the facts.

Don't feel bad. Nobody knows this is real data. Go look at Malin's.

Originally posted by ArMaP
You can do better than that.

yes I can... but why?

Besides maybe you have bad data on the REAL pressure on Mars...