Tax the rich and feed the poor until there are no rich no more

Originally posted by gdeed
The rich is anyone with a job. And those with jobs pay taxes. Taxes pay for schools, roads, hospitals, clean water, welfare etc.

Well actually no, please don't assume what I mean by the use of a word.

The rich are those at the very tip of the pyramid scheme.

If you think a working person is rich, then you really have no concept of what wealth is privately owned at the expense of starving children.

Is your life worth your pay check, really? You think it's a privilege to able to work? Sorry but I'm not going to be grateful to able to work for a wage so someone else can get wealthy off my labour.

Wealth is an illusion designed to give some people more power over others.
You're trapped in a system that continues to take from you to give to the less deserving. You are being forced to pay for a system that enslaves you in working for the majority of your life to create wealth for someone else.

Your life is worth far more than any paycheck and so is the future of our planet. Money is not the answer to our survival and betterment. Money in fact stifles our creativity. If everything wasn't based on making capital we could have had cheap clean energy years ago. We wouldn't be living in dirty overcrowded cities. Our transportation system wouldn't be based on the car and the burning of fossil fuels.

The capitalist system encourages people to be unfair, self serving, greedy, criminal. It discourages real growth other than wealth. It creates a society where Human contact is measured in contracts and potential gains instead of compassion and looove baby for your fellow Human Being.

The working man cannot . . . repurchase that which he has produced for his master. It is thus with all trades whatsoever. . . since, producing for a master, who in one form or another makes a profit, they are obliged to pay more for their own labour than they get for it. [Proudhon, What is Property, p. 189]

What is property, what is capital in their present form? For the capitalist and the property owner they mean the power and the right, guaranteed by the State, to live without working . . . [and so] the power and right to live by exploiting the work of someone else . . . those . . . [who are] forced to sell their productive power to the lucky owners of both. [The Political Philosophy of Bakunin, p. 180]

When a workman leaves the mill, carrying his pay in his pocket, the civil law guarantees to him what he thus takes away; but before he leaves the mill he is the rightful owner of a part of the wealth that the day's industry has brought forth. Does the economic law which, in some way that he does not understand, determines what his pay shall be, make it to correspond with the amount of his portion of the day's product, or does it force him to leave some of his rightful share behind him? A plan of living that should force men to leave in their employer's hands anything that by right of creation is theirs, would be an institutional robbery -- a legally established violation of the principle on which property is supposed to rest." [John Bates Clark, The Distribution of Wealth, pp. 8-9]

Originally posted by RWPBR
Screw the poor. If there were no poor than I could not be rich. In order to have "haves" there must be "Have nots" I say we eat the poor or use them as fertilizer or something

Why post something like this? You're obviously trolling and baiting someone to step in and correct you for spouting that kind of filth....

In any case, there is no such thing as 'haves' and 'have nots'. Someone who has alot of money and property is only materially bloated... in the end they will lead a mortal life and answer to the same fate as everyone else.

While a great concept in theory, it would never work.

If I worked hard my whole life and amassed a great deal of wealth, I would be very mad if a bunch of "poor" people who did nothing to better themselves, tried to take away my hard earned money. I wish there was no such thing as poverty, but there will always be lazy people who constantly want free handouts without working towards any sort of goal, its all take, take, take with no effort on their part. These types of people are leeches, and should be treated as such - they deserve to be poor.

I am in no way rich, far from it, but I have worked for what I have and I believe that if you do work for your wealth that you appreciate it more, no matter how much it is. And another thing, if you cant afford to feed one kid, why in gods green earth do they have another, then another, then another?! yea, it makes no sense to me either.

reply to post by NewWorldOver


All I am saying is there will always be poor people and rich people.
It hasnt changed in the entire history of mankind and it never will. As long as I am willing to work a little harder or save a little more than someone else I will be more prosperous.


As far as your take on spirituality goes, to each his own. I give to Ceaser what is Ceaser's and I give to my God what is my God's. Even Jesus said " The Poor will always be with us"

reply to post by gdeed


so where are all these rich people that have been taxed into poverty? bush is a multi-millioniare and never has run one successful business or worked one hard day in his life...give me a break. and there are so many examples of smart people that have come up with money making ideas, that have had the rug pulled out from under them, from lying, cheating, wealthy people. the american dream of becoming wealthy is only achieved by a few people. the rest do it by leaching off of trusting, and honest common folk, that think their honest work will be rewarded by the people at the top. the wealthy stay that way by moving their company to another country that pays dirt poor wages. or bribes congress to give them either a overpriced government contract or passes some legislation that screws the worker and taxpayer. Enron workers, i guess in your estimation were lazy, and so were the lower wage earners of Bear & stearns. thousands of workers had their retirement savings wiped out by a few wealthy investors. hundreds of thousands of workers in this country have had their whole families put into poverty, because the wealthy could find a worker in vietnam or other third world country, to work for 50 cents an hour. NAFTA and GATT were passed, so "capital" could have countries competing against each other, to see who could provide the cheapest labor and least amount of government intervention. the wealthy make sure that people get paid just enough so they can return to work the next day. the wealthy, should be damn glad that they haven't been killed off by all the people that have gotten screwed over by them. and as far as the wealthy providing the jobs?....only if they themselves can make a pile of money, and if they can't?...oh well!...tough luck!! you make them sound like they are some type of savior for the slopped-headed, knuckle-dragging, poor, lazy, worker. and if you think i'm a communist...hell no, that didn't work either. i wouldn't mind being wealthy...but i also wouldn't whine and cry about paying taxes, i'd be happy to, if paying people a good living, provided me and my family, a highly properous, modern, functioning society to live in.

[edit on 30-3-2008 by jimmyx]

Originally posted by deadline527
While a great concept in theory, it would never work.

If I worked hard my whole life and amassed a great deal of wealth, I would be very mad if a bunch of "poor" people who did nothing to better themselves, tried to take away my hard earned money...

That's because your perception of what I'm saying is wrong.

No one is going to take anything from you. I just want a system that works for all of us where your labor, whatever that is, is really working for you and not someone else exploiting your labor.

It would work better for all of us, it is the only true way EVERYBODY could be 'wealthy' and have all they need. But it's easier to just look after number one, even though its short sited and really hurts ourselves in the long run. All these selfish people taking resources for themselves and selling the access at a profit is why the economy is in the crapper. It's why you have to walk by people everyday asking for spare change. It's why we have to have charities with their band aids instead of fixing the root of the problem. It's why one third of the world is starving. It's why your fellow countrymen are dying in Iraq.

But I'm OK, and I fear change, and anyway the media says there's a spook under my bed and terrorists in my closet, and if I question my existence I'm a traitor to my country, the one that's been taken over by criminals who use my labor to finance their games of power and control fed by their own paranoia...Yeah I'm OK!

Well so were 4000 US troops not too long ago...

Feed your mind, not your bank account...

[edit on 30/3/2008 by ANOK]

You have no right to forcibly take from me property which I have worked to get. How I got my property is none of your concern: it could be inherited, worked for and earned or won in a bet... it doesnt matter.

If you try and take my property forcibly from me, you are a point blank thief. Not a liberal, not a socialist or communist... you are a thief. Simple as that Im afraid.

Originally posted by RWPBR
...It hasnt changed in the entire history of mankind and it never will. As long as I am willing to work a little harder or save a little more than someone else I will be more prosperous...

Saying it will never change is why we're in the mess we are. I'm glad the rest of Humanity didn't have your attitude. There would still be slaves on plantations, and you'd be working far more than 40 hours for the pittance you're paid now.

This myth of working harder keeps popping up a lot lately...That was an illusion the state came up with to make the working class work harder. How many of them did it make rich? How many just went through life just working harder?

Today, as Tim Wise writes in “The Mother of All Racial Preferences" white baby boomers are benefiting from the largest transfer of wealth in American history as they inherit their parents’ estates. Some of that wealth dates back to the years of slavery, when Blacks were forced to work for free while their white owners and the American economy accumulated the benefits of their toil. Another large category of the transferred wealth is land, much of it stolen by the American government from Native Americans and Mexicans and sold for a pittance to white settlers. For the average white family, however, some of the largest sources of wealth are the result of racial preferences in government policies that were started in the 20th century. Focus On Affirmative Action

(pls don't focus on the race reference, not the point of this quote)

Your viewpoint is very black and white and exactly the way the state wants you to think. The state wants you to work harder while your pay check goes down along with your economy. You have to realise the 'powers that be' have all they need, they don't care how the economy is as long as it's doing its job of controlling the masses.

Hard work is great as long as you are benefiting directly from your own labour instead of through a boss and around a system of taxation and monopolisation that feeds a class of people who do nothing but sip martinis on their yachts while your labour adds zeros to their bank accounts.

They are the ones sucking off the system, and you, not the lower classes who are just stuck in a cycle of working harder and watching their worth dwindle because the economy falls around them and prices go up.

Maybe you just haven't lived enough life yet to see this pattern of existence in our modern world? Or maybe you can't see around the carrot?

Originally posted by 44soulslayer
You have no right to forcibly take from me property which I have worked to get....

If you're talking to me you are not reading what I said. Where did you get the idea that I suggested taking anything from anybody by force?

That's what the state does...

Joy and Carl Gamble bought an English stucco house in Norwood, Ohio, in 1969. They raised two children there and worked seven days a week in their small grocery store to pay off the mortgage. “ We had the house fixed up just the way we liked it,” Carl says. “When we retired, we planned to sit down and enjoy it.”

But now the Gambles live in their daughter’s basement. Their house stands vacant in the weedy field that was their neighborhood—seized by the city and transferred to a developer who wants to build shops, offices and condominiums.

Source

reply to post by ANOK


It was generalised towards anyone who supports the premise of this thread.

All I want to know is how would your philosophy answer the question :

Why should the rich be penalised for their success?

One thing you have to consider...

When all the poor and starving people get houses and toilet paper and material wealth.. where does all the material come from, sure as hell ain't coming from this world.

Rich, Poor.
Democrat. Republican.
White, Black.
Christian, Muslim.
Strong, Weak.
Smart, Stupid.
Good looking, Ugly.
Gays, and straights.
Haves, and have nots.
Yeah i'd say we learned alot from the sixties.
Lord this world is doomed!

[edit on 30-3-2008 by TimeTracker]

Originally posted by 44soulslayer
Why should the rich be penalised for their success?

Only one reason, envy.

That’s why Cain killed his brother Able.

God, I hate it when the only solution people can come up with to fix world issues is to create a new tax. I also do not like it when musicians and entertainers try to tell the rest of us how to live. I can't believe so many people buy into this garbage.

[edit on 30-3-2008 by zerotime]

Originally posted by 44soulslayer
Why should the rich be penalised for their success?

What do you mean by penalised. Why are you under the assumption that anyone should be penalised? That is what the system we have now does.
What do you mean by success? The wealth of the elite comes from our labour, not their success. Unless you call exploiting people success. Unless you call poverty success? Unless you call war and the death of 4000 success?

There is enough wealth and resources for us all to be comfortable why should we struggle for what belongs rightly to all of us. The Earth belongs to us all, not the few who decided to claim it as their own and profit from it.

Stop thinking of everything on a personal level, were all in this together and until we realise this we will never be free of oppression, exploitation, coercion, war.

I want a system where you and me, the workers, own the means to our own production. So what we produce goes directly back to ourselves instead of through a half dozen other people first. We produce the worlds good and then we have to buy those good back at an inflated price from the wage we're given. You can't see how that is unfair to you and me?

We are not free when we don't have the means to live life without being reliant on a system or a boss for our survival.

The rich can just go away with what they have, but don't expect us the workers to prop up your exploitative existence any more. If any of them have any conscience at all they should see that their wealth is just a paranoid hording of resources, and with a fair system no one needs to want for anything.

It's a crime against Humanity for some to have billions when others have nothing, especially when the system that creates those billionaires does so off the backs of those who have nothing.

reply to post by ANOK


It is thinking like that that keeps the poor poor. Keep it up mate.
The less people like you do for the system the more the things I do for the system benefit me and mine. Dont let me change your mind. Keep blaming others, keep up the class warfare. The less players in the game the better !

Why should we spend our time keeping you down when you disenfranchise yourself.

Maybe one day when your ideals loose out to reality I will let you wash my car or mow my lawn for old times sake.


Cheers



[edit on 30-3-2008 by RWPBR]

So let me get this straight. I start a company from the ground up using my business skills which I learned by educating my self…earn a six or seven figure income from busting my hide and managing that business, giving people jobs, paying taxes, and providing economic growth…

Then I’m supposed to just hand over my earnings to some poor person because they made different choices then I did.

They chose to buy beer and cigarettes and I chose to buy a book on how to improve my self?

Is that about right? You really think this is how things should work?

reply to post by concreteconspiracy


Six or seven figures is rich, but not wealthy. Talk about true wealth, lets talk ten plus figures. True wealth where you never have to go back to your business to run it personally. Where you never have to lift a finger a day in your life. Where you can buy a yacht a day, and not worry about anything. Where you could could give away a million, and it would only be considered a drop in the bucket. That you have so much money, that you couldn't even spend it in ten life times.

After reading this thread, I honestly believe no one would have anything against you. It is those who have wealth, and horde it. It is those who have wealth and can pay living wages, but send their corporations over seas to obtain workers for slave wages. It is those who want to bring in foregin workers for cheap labor, because they can't send their corporations over seas.

It is those who want to tell people who are already working 2 or 3 jobs just to struggle to keep what they have, you have to work harder. Even though they are one pay check away from the streets. They tell the people hard work equals good pay. While they try to do everything possible from having to give them a good wage that they can actually live on, even going as far as terminating an employee right before having to give a pay raise. Then turning around and hiring someone else to do the job for less. All the while they keep creating more and more wealth by investments the common person can't touch.

No doubt you are rich. Hopefully you have everything paid in full including your house and car. Six figures is not wealthy. Even seven figures by today's standards is not wealthy.

Excluding you and everyone like you, how do you really feel about those who are truly wealthy and only care about their wealth increasing even to the point of denying an honest days wage for an honest day of work? They rather pay slave wages or sweat shop wages and cut as many corners as possible just to line their own pockets. They would rather see their stock investments increase even if it hurts the business and the consumers of that business.

[edit on 31-3-2008 by Mystery_Lady]

Originally posted by ANOK

What do you mean by penalised. Why are you under the assumption that anyone should be penalised? That is what the system we have now does.
What do you mean by success? The wealth of the elite comes from our labour, not their success. Unless you call exploiting people success. Unless you call poverty success? Unless you call war and the death of 4000 success?

"Take from the rich and give to the poor"... that seems like penalising the rich to me.

Wealth is not only generated from exploitation. I have never exploited a single person to get where I am today. Hell, Ive never even employed a person in my life. I got where I am today solely by my hard work and ingenuity, my parents hard work and ingenuity and theirs before them.

There is enough wealth and resources for us all to be comfortable why should we struggle for what belongs rightly to all of us. The Earth belongs to us all, not the few who decided to claim it as their own and profit from it.

Because not everyone is worthy of wealth and comfort. The lazy, the ignorant and the stupid do nothing for society hence they should not be subject to the comforts and benefits of wealth.

Needless to say, rich and poor are meaningless designations without each other. What I mean to say is that without the poor the rich cannot enjoy luxury. Because if everyone had exactly the same standing and money in life, there would be no luxury goods or services. Conversely the poor need the rich in order to offer employment, pay taxes etc.

Stop thinking of everything on a personal level, were all in this together and until we realise this we will never be free of oppression, exploitation, coercion, war.

This is an economics issue, it has nothing to do with war. The rich didnt start this war, idiotic politicians did. The rich didnt benefit from this war, the politicians did.

I want a system where you and me, the workers, own the means to our own production. So what we produce goes directly back to ourselves instead of through a half dozen other people first. We produce the worlds good and then we have to buy those good back at an inflated price from the wage we're given. You can't see how that is unfair to you and me?

So basically youre a proponent of Karl Marx and Das Kapital. Fair enough.
But you realise that without the entrepreneurs and industrialists you wouldnt have any employment at all.

It is a free market, if you dont want to work for someone else, start your own enterprise if you are capable enough. Thats what my family did. Working for someone else is inherently pointless, because you dont get any reward. I agree with you on that. However what I cant understand is why you are proposing taking money from the landowners, industrialists etc instead of trying to get into their position yourself.

We are not free when we don't have the means to live life without being reliant on a system or a boss for our survival.

Very true, I agree 100%. However you are not being forced to work for anyone. As I said, its a free country and a free market. You can do as you please and start your own business or endevour.

The rich can just go away with what they have, but don't expect us the workers to prop up your exploitative existence any more. If any of them have any conscience at all they should see that their wealth is just a paranoid hording of resources, and with a fair system no one needs to want for anything.

Fair enough, you dont want to work for the rich any more... dont. Who is forcing you? "The system" i bet youre going to say... If I didnt need to submit to an employer then neither should you. Its a question of choice. In reality workers like having easy access to employment. They are lazy to go out and start their own endevour. They are scared of the risks of business and they are incapable of running their own company. Hence they rely upon the rich and then simultaneously criticize them for "hoarding wealth". This entire concept of anarchism, communism and socialism is born of nothing more than envy and jelousy.

It's a crime against Humanity for some to have billions when others have nothing, especially when the system that creates those billionaires does so off the backs of those who have nothing.

No its not. Those who gain wealth do so in honest terms for the most part. The system allows only those who are worthy to gain wealth. It allows only the most intelligent, pioneering people to gain money from the system. It allows only those who are willing to "play the game" to get anywhere.

I consider the system to be a brilliant and unrestricted form of meritocracy. You get what you deserve based on your ability to get it. It would be a different case if the country you lived in forced you to work in the factories like Soviet Russia. However the countries we live in are free countries. Any time you dont want to be a worker, pick up the courage and become an owner instead.

Originally posted by Solarskye
If it wasn't for the rich then all these so called poor people would be out of a job and homeless.

Excuse me, but I disagree. Id say its the other way around, if it wasnt for the poor, there would be no rich people.

You see, for one person to be rich, another person needs to be poor.

You cannot have rich feudal lords without the poor serfs working the fields.
You cannot have rich plantation owners without the slaves picking the cotton.
You cannot have Superrich multinational companies without the countries fll of child and slave labour.

My point, there is a direct connection between rich and poor.

Furthermore, there are relatively few true "rags to riches" stories. Many of the superrich got that way because of their parents, who were fortunate enough to take advantage of economic situations (read: other peoples suffering)

You make what you make of yourself even if you are born into poverty.

So, those people living in the sahara only need to go out and look for a job? Come one man, even you cant believe that.

Here in the united states there is no poverty.

Bull**** There is much poverty in the US, and all across North Ameirca. Granted its not desperate poverty as say in Ethopia, but its still poverty; people not sure of if they get to eat next week, if they will have a roof over their heads, etc.

Go to other countries around the world and you'll see the real poverty. These people don't have cars to drive or cell phones to use.

There are many people just like that in most city cores.

Most of the rich are that way because the have good work ethics and spend most their time working sixty to eighty hours a week.

What do you define as rich? 70,000 a year? If so, your in line with US census data, which doesnt even tough upon the superrich, the people who actually own the lions share of the wealth in this world, such as the heads of Exxon, Microsoft, and Wal-mart.

Get off this rich need to help the poor stuff. The poor needs to help them selfs.

I simply think the Superrich need to pay their fare share of taxes. As it stands, many corporations that fall into that bracket actually reviece negative tax credits because of all the writeoffs and tax shelters they have. In other words, a corporation that is shipping US jobs to china is actually getting a nice rebate from the government for doing so well at crushing the US economy.