Is the Cross Just Another Lie? (Revised)

I'm wondering why if your not a Christian this would have any bearing on you? there is a lot of things I don't like or disagree with but if it doesn't concern me why comment on it?

Originally posted by MatrixProphet
So you have been sent in as a heavy hitter? Yes, most of what you are saying has been discussed already. Please excuse me if I do not rehash it all again.

Ya, I'm kind of the resident loudmouth Christian.

Of course! There are engravings of the cross on sarcophagi that goes back to ancient Egypt. And it was used in their worship. Many Christians adopted beliefs from other pagan societies and incorporated them into Christianity...eventually.

Absolutely. But what would define things as a slam dunk match or a coincidence? And are you referring to the Egyptian Ankh, the fertility symbol? Let me know before I respond further.

It might behoove you to study more about Constantine and his connection to the cross and the establishment of Christianity.

I already have and know what all he was up to. He was an odd one, no doubt, and did a lot more harm than good regardless of his intentions. He definitely left a historical stink bomb for Christians to clean up.

"These crosses were used as symbols of the Babylonian sun-god, and are first seen on a coin of Julius Caesar, 100-44 B.C. and then on a coin struck by Caesar's heir (Augustus), 20 B.C. On the coins of Constantine their most frequent symbol is (an x with a circle), but; the same symbol is used without the surrounding circle, and with the four equal arms vertical and horizontal; and this was the symbol specially venerated as the 'Solar Wheel.' It should be stated that Constantine was a sun-god worshiper, and would not enter the 'Church' till some quarter of a century after the legend of his having seen such a cross in the heavens." -The Companion Bible, see also "The Non-Christian Cross."

Again, absolutely. There have been many cross symbolisms throughout history. See: HERE.

For comparison, See: STAR SYMBOLS and CIRCLE SYMBOLS. Just like the star symbol or circle symbol, the 'T' symbol is also frequently used although the meanings for certain things differ dramatically. So is the same with the Christian cross compared to other 'T/t' symbols used for other things. I simply don't see an issue.

I am sorry but I do not accept elusive comments like: 5,000 -25,000 first century Greek texts that confirm that Jesus died on a cross, especially when I read what the scholars have written or discovered, especially without documented proof. Ambiguous comments do not ring true.

As in, Greek New Testament and extrabiblical manuscripts dating back to 1st century A.D. They verify the crucifixion by eye witnesses. Then in the 2nd century, secular sources are also found.

And please remember, there was much apostasy in the first century amongst the Christians and dispute among them regarding what was actual truth. They were being hit with philosophy from many segments - Hellenism, Roman beliefs, gnosticism, etc. etc. For anyone to assume or to imply that none actual got incorporated into the Christian doctrine (along with the cross) would be showing a sign of ignorance.

Roman, maybe. I will give you that and ignore forming a rebuttal for now. As for Hellenistic or Gnostic philosophy, this simply seems illogical once you understand what they entail.

I thought you were aware; there was very little actually recorded in the first century as most information was transmitted orally!

Oh, I am definitely aware of this. And this fact even enhances my argument. Considering oral tradition was so rampant in 1st century A.D. due to lack of materials and literacy of the population, the tremendous amount of references that actually exist concerning Jesus and the crucifixion is amazing. As some have said before, more writings concerning Jesus exist than pretty much anything else in antiquity.

To say that there were as many as 5,000 to 25,000 texts? There are many books that would inform you otherwise. Actually to hear actual scholars speak (there have been many documentaries lately), they say that there was very little recorded in the first century, and that what was actually recorded is; being questioned as to their authority or origin. I am surprised you did not know this!

No, I know this. Not sure why you keep getting condescending and assuming I do not know these things. Anyways, again, yes. There are approximately 5,000 complete NT manuscripts of some 25,000 Greek segments. So what do I care if 'many books inform me otherwise?' It does not make these manuscripts magically disappear from existence.

Yes, there were many historians within the first three centuries. Unfortunately none were around at the time of Jesus death. Anything said about his death would be conjecture.

Thank goodness for the eye witness NT manuscripts then!

[edit on 3/30/2008 by AshleyD]

That is a good question! I was a Christian for many decades. I am a searcher for truth and always have been. It is the reason I left religion because I was not getting sufficient answers.

There has to be those who search out the light out of the darkness. How can new things be discovered unless there were those who are willing to go out on a limb to express them?

We need to ask; are the Gods including Jesus - wanting mankind to learn the truth on matters? Jah has always had throughout the millenniums - prophets that he used to dispense new knowledge as he sees fit.

"He said: 'To you it is granted to understand the Sacred Secrets of the kingdom of God, but for the rest it is in illustrations, in order that, though looking, they may look in vain and, though hearing, they may not get the meaning."

"And he went on to say: 'Go Daniel, because the words are made secret and sealed up until the time of the end."

Are we experiencing the "end of times!" If so, wouldn't Jah keep to his words and reveal his new light, now? And who would he use? Did he ever stop using prophets? What proof do we have that he did? There have always been a select few who have gone against the masses and questioned things that were considered wrong by many. But how does anything ever get discovered? If all felt the way most do, nothing would ever be discovered!

"Think of yourself as an incandescent power, illuminated and perhaps forever talked to by God and his messengers."
- Brenda Ueland

reply to post by MatrixProphet


I agree that there is nothing that specifically states the "cross" was nothing more than a stake. However, there is nothing that specifically states it wasn't. Hence the dilemia did Christ die on a real cross? The answer is, it doesn't matter. The point of the crucifixion is not what method was used. The point is the extreme suffering, death and resurection. Cause of death was more than likely shock from the beating, mode of death was execution.

I have stated why I believe it was a traditional cross, but here is another. Jesus shouted with a loud voice, "It is finished." then he died. Anyone who can shout with a loud voice is not suffering from breathing difficulties. It appears that His heart gave out from shock/trauma.

Could it be that jesus ressurecting and coming back to life is a metaphor or somthing to refer that there is life after death.
He re-lives again but in heaven not earth. Maybe his message is live how you want but not with fear. Did he prove that there is life after death by sending messages to us humans via heaven.
Is heaven another higher dimension or a location across the universe to where we are originaly from ???

I wanted to stay out of this because I don't have biblical resources handy to back up my claims (all my books are packed up *sigh*).

But Jesus had nail scars in his hands (which he showed to Timothy) and was nailed to a cross through his hands (or wrists) and feet. He also bore the crossbeam on his shoulders through the City to the place of crucifixion after his scourging, he fell, and another person was chosen to carry the cross for him. This indicates a cross-beam was used. It has been shown before that if a crossbeam were carried, it meant it was indeed the crossbeam and not the actual stake. The stake would have already been prepared and waiting for the prisoner.

He could have been nailed to a normal pole as some have said, but this would mean he was nailed with his arms straight up and his feet straight down. I don't buy that. There's been too much study to the contrary.

Also, all crucifixes were made from trees (wood).

[edit on 3/30/08 by idle_rocker]

reply to post by MatrixProphet

Are we experiencing the "end of times!" If so, wouldn't Jah keep to his words and reveal his new light, now? And who would he use? Did he ever stop using prophets? What proof do we have that he did? There have always been a select few who have gone against the masses and questioned things that were considered wrong by many. But how does anything ever get discovered? If all felt the way most do, nothing would ever be discovered!

Are you saying you are a prophet? If so, you must realize you must be tested rigorously.

Originally posted by LucidDreamer85
Could it be that jesus ressurecting and coming back to life is a metaphor or somthing to refer that there is life after death.

Yes, if you include the reports of those who saw Him after the resurection as a metaphor also.

As the world gets closer to the end times, there will more not less attacks on Christian beleifs. Some are by well meaning people who truly believe that they are doing a service to society by discrediting everything that Christians believe. The rest is done out of hate and maliciousness. Either way, I fight in the spiritual realm, not the physical.

reply to post by idle_rocker

Are you saying you are a prophet? If so, you must realize you must be tested rigorously.

To answer your question: Yes. And have I been tested? Oh, if you only knew! But, there is a point where I need to let the facts speak for themselves. It is not my role nor duty to change anyone but to make the information available. I am not part of any religion nor cult, nor do I wish to start one!

Thank you for your politeness!

"I just take dictation!"
- Hemingway

Originally posted by MatrixProphet
reply to post by AshleyD

 

I'm just responding to this by request. If any of the following has already been mentioned, my apologies. I haven't read the entire thread.

So you have been sent in as a heavy hitter? Yes, most of what you are saying has been discussed already. Please excuse me if I do not rehash it all again.

AshleyD entered this thread at my request. I wanted to see it from her perspective. Thanks for your input AshleyD.

I do have some questions to put, but I shall have to think about them first in order that they be clear.

[edit on 30-3-2008 by rizla]

reply to post by MatrixProphet


Well could you enlighten us on this information you have been given? I haven't seen anything yet that would change my belief structure that I came to after years of study. What is it that we are to know from you?

What is it I may have to say as a prophet?

Regarding the comment; “I must realize that I will be tested rigorously”: actually there will be no repeat of the situation like the Sanhedrin. It does not go quite that way! There is not a need for it. What Jesus did is not to be repeated, it would not work anyway. To be used as a prophet today, the refining with fire comes before, and is part of the training. My role is to make available new insights if a person wants it. But a person first needs to know that you exist! Hence, the thread I have opened up. I may do more threads of this sort – if I am shown. Anything, to get people to think and to reason. What one does with the information is strictly up to them.

There are many on earth today who have a “knowingness,” I am amongst the ones that have this. It involved gaining tremendous life experience, beyond the average person and insight that could only come from God. There are many who connect on a deep spiritual level and there is a sort of secret language that exists. No, I am not a Gnostic! No, I am not New Age! It is an understanding that transcends religion and the world in general. And we all know that we are basically on the same wave length even with differences in some beliefs.

I am not interested in converting the religious over to my way of thinking. Actually, I am not interested in the religious at all. Those who are religious who are reading this and are very happy with your beliefs and do not really have any questions that aren’t already getting answered…then you do not need me! But part of my role is to expose the lies we have been taught. There are some out there that actually wish to hear it.

The ones that would be more open to what I and other “enlightened” ones have to say, are those who realize that religion and the politics of the world no longer work for them. They have tried everything but the answers have not come from orthodox means nor from traditional beliefs and their teachers. There are many throughout the world that are looking for “new information” and are expecting it, they are waiting for it. There is a connectedness that is unexplainable. But, it exists none-the-less.

I do not have to convince anyone of anything nor do I need to argue a point to death! Jesus didn’t either when he went before the High Priest. The Truth will shine on its own. I know that we have entered a time of; exposure, enlightenment and the opening up of conspiracies on all levels of life and understanding. This is a good place to do it!


[edit on 31-3-2008 by MatrixProphet]

[edit on 31-3-2008 by MatrixProphet]

reply to post by MatrixProphet


No. The Bible tells us that many will come after Jesus who are not true prophets. That is what I mean by being tested...you must be tested to find out if your are true.

I am not trying to be ugly, I just want to know so that I can begin my testing procedure in my own mind.

reply to post by idle_rocker


Who is to do the judging? I am not taking you as mean. I would do the same thing in your shoes. Ask God what he thinks!

Yes, there are many false prophets but unfortunately they get all the attention! LOL!

In my estimation the best way to do any testing of any information that may not at first feel comfortable is: ask God. I always asked him to "write it in the sky" if I needed direction, for I needed it to be obvious, especially when I felt dim.

It is better if nothing is being required of you but to listen and then to make determination if it is the truth or not. Let it sink in and test the feeling for a while and see where it leads. If one is being asked to act on something right away, then generally it is coming from Satan. Jah's truth rarely depends on a quick emotional decision, and his way is usually smooth even if it is uncomfortable.

Originally posted by MatrixProphet
In my estimation the best way to do any testing of any information that may not at first feel comfortable is: ask God. I always asked him to "write it in the sky" if I needed direction, for I needed it to be obvious, especially when I felt dim.

It is better if nothing is being required of you but to listen and then to make determination if it is the truth or not. Let it sink in and test the feeling for a while and see where it leads. If one is being asked to act on something right away, then generally it is coming from Satan. Jah's truth rarely depends on a quick emotional decision, and his way is usually smooth even if it is uncomfortable.

Hey Matrix!

This information you have and the "secret" language is IMO, not a secret but rather the opposite. Tapping in can be arduous at times because there are times when we are not invited into the "conversation". For myself- I found this to occur only when I am not ready to handle the information. The times I pushed for this connection- it was more than I could handle and I regretted it.

When I come from a truly good place- the help/assistance I want to be a part of works out without a hitch and my awareness of the difference between benevolence and malevolence is pretty spot on.

I will U2U you with my dream and what we discussed because it is a definite communication that I do not know what to do with or if I am supposed to anything at all- it may have been just for me to see for my own peace of mind. The desire to share it could be an invite from the malevolent side trying to set me up for only God knows what!

I have to say I feel a strange absence of benevolence lately and I have some suspicions about that!

The thread is going quite nicely in that I am not seeking the usual brand of attacks which is a heavenly relief!

Originally posted by MatrixProphet
In my estimation the best way to do any testing of any information that may not at first feel comfortable is: ask God. I always asked him to "write it in the sky" if I needed direction, for I needed it to be obvious, especially when I felt dim.

It is better if nothing is being required of you but to listen and then to make determination if it is the truth or not. Let it sink in and test the feeling for a while and see where it leads. If one is being asked to act on something right away, then generally it is coming from Satan. Jah's truth rarely depends on a quick emotional decision, and his way is usually smooth even if it is uncomfortable.

1 John 4: 1Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. 2Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: 3And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

This is what the Bible tells us to do whenever someone claims to be a prophet or claims to have “special knowledge.” Remember that Christ is not Jesus’ last name. It means that He is the promised Messiah and that He fulfills all of the prophecies from the Old Testament.

14And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.

I understand what you are saying, but I don’t go by feelings if it is contrary to the Bible. The “end times” are described as a time when:

Acts 2:17 In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams

I look forward to what you have to say.

reply to post by dk3000

This information you have and the "secret" language is IMO, not a secret but rather the opposite. Tapping in can be arduous at times because there are times when we are not invited into the "conversation". For myself- I found this to occur only when I am not ready to handle the information. The times I pushed for this connection- it was more than I could handle and I regretted it.

Good for you! But I need to add; you are the exception not the rule. You are a person that has reached out and gotten out of your box and are willing to tap into that universal energy. It is difficult for others to do because they have too many go-betweens or filters. You don't want to take for granted the connection you do have as it can take a lot to teach someone what you already know.

Welcome back!! Remember that song/show?.

reply to post by darkelf


Thank you for your input! The Bible does not say that there would not be accurate prophets in the last days, either. I am very aware of those scriptures, they are right on.

But remember, I used to be Christian and no longer consider myself religious. So it is natural that we will have differences. Jah said that there would be new light in the last days and so where is it to come from?

Would there not be ones he would use today? We are living in the most exciting time in man's history. Some of the new message would need to apply to us in these days, that would not be so applicable in Jesus day.

I am not trying to sway you. Please read my information above about my being a prophet. See where you fit.

Originally posted by MatrixProphet
reply to post by idle_rocker

 

Who is to do the judging? I am not taking you as mean. I would do the same thing in your shoes. Ask God what he thinks!

Yes, there are many false prophets but unfortunately they get all the attention! LOL!

Yes, but you keep evading my question. If I am to make a judgment, I must have something to judge. I know what I must judge it against...now what am I judging?