F.B.I. Counsel: No Attempt Made By F.B.I. To Formally Identify 9/11 Plane Wreckage

I think what may be missing from the discussion is why that kind of typing wasn't necessary:

The amount of cooperative evidence is/was overwhelming. Flight data recorders, radar flight path tapes, thousands of eyewitnesses, cell phone calls from the planes to loved ones who identified the voices, flights leaving departure gates and never arriving at their destination, etc, etc, etc.

Science is only science when you look at all of the available data and draw conclusions from the preponderance of evidence. The only "proof" in life is mathematics. Everything else comes from a preponderance of evidence.

The simple reason why the "truth" movement isn’t taken seriously is because of selective analysis. They tend to look at only what supports their ideas and utterly ignore what doesn't, thereby taking things completely out of context.

The reason the typing wasn't done: there was no need to. Like someone else stated: do you really think the insurance companies would cover the loss of the aircraft if they had one iota of doubt which plane wound up where?

But, they must be in on it to, right? Oh, and the airlines. And airline employees: pilots who flew around the "decoy" aircraft, maintenance personnel who worked on said "real" airplanes....oh and those in the towers who gave clearances to land and take off....oh and the FAA employees (all several hundred) involved in routing the "decoy" and "real" airplanes through varying airspace....oh and the FAA recordings need to be all tampered/faked........and the people who did the tampering are obviously in on it......and the people who killed the people involved with the tampering......and the people who off loaded the passengers and marched them off to their deaths (murders)......oh and the people who saw this happening.................................................

Originally posted by Griff


OK. I'm getting sick of this "thousands" that you claim. Name them.

If you can't get me a link to the names, then YOU can't claim this anymore. Because if you can't back up your claim that 1,000+ witnesses saw and/or recovered stuff, then you are just stating your opinion.

The burden of proof is on you to supply these 1,000 + witnesses.

Hope this helps.... I don't have ALL the names...but here is a short list of SOME of the people that were there followed by quotes from several people that were representing these teams.


Alexandria VA Fire & Rescue,
American Airlines,
American Red Cross,
Arlington County Emergency Medical Services,
Arlington County Fire Department,
Arlington County Sheriff's Department,
Arlington VA Police Department,
Armed Forces Institute of Pathology,
Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco and Firearms,
DiLorenzo TRICARE Health Clinic staff,
DeWitt Army Community Hospital staff,
District of Columbia Fire & Rescue,
DOD Honor Guard,
Environmental Protection Agency Hazmat Teams,
Fairfax County Fire & Rescue,
FBI Evidence Recovery Teams,
FBI Hazmat Teams,
Federal Aviation Administration,
Federal Disaster Medical Assistance Teams,
FEMA 68-Person Urban Search and Rescue Teams Maryland Task Force 1, New Mexico Task Force 1,
Tennessee Task Force 1,
Virginia Task Force 1, Virginia Task Force 2,
FEMA Emergency Response Team,
Fort Myer Fire Department,
Four U.S. Army Chaplains, Metropolitan Airport Authority Fire Unit,
Military District of Washington Engineers Search & Rescue Team, Montgomery County Fire & Rescue,
U.S. National Guard units,
National Naval Medical Center CCRF,
National Transportation Safety Board,
Pentagon Defense Protective Service,
Pentagon Helicopter Crash Response Team,
Pentagon Medical Staff,
Rader Army Health Clinic Staff,
SACE Structural Safety Engineers and Debris Planning and Response Teams, Salvation Army Disaster Services,
U.S. Army Corps of Engineers,
US Army Reserves of Virginia Beach Fairfax County and Montgomery County,
Virginia Beach Fire Department,
Virginia Department of Emergency Management,
Virginia State Police

Some Quotes:

You could see where the plane had gone in. It sheared off some of the light poles and those were on the ground. There were some plane parts around. We got right up to the building. The frustrating thing is you couldn’t get in because of the smoke. –Colonel John F. Roser, commander of the Rader Army Health Clinic at Ft. Myer, VA.

We could not see the plane. The only thing that we saw was a piece of the front skin with the “C” from American Airlines by the little heliport control tower.–Lieutenant Colonel Frank Bryceland

I rushed through Henderson Hall (a close-by Marine barracks) to the Pentagon. Along the way, debris of an airplane wing was on the grass. –Dr. Duong Nguyen, COL, MC (retired), physician

We noticed pieces of the aircraft that had landed inside the courtyard, and the FBI personnel were marking the location where each piece landed. –Colonel Jonathan Fruendt, Surgeon

But we did go right up by the helipad almost. You could see pieces of the airplane sitting there, and it looked like some cushions or some pieces. –Lieutenant Colonel Bernadette Close

At that point we were able to see the last part of the plane, where it stopped, basically. It was a big 8 by 10 or bigger, I’m just guessing, hole in the wall. You could see the tire, the landing gear, were just forward of it. There was a fire that was burning right up against the wall. –Sergeant First Class Reginald Powell, radiologist

I remember looking down the corridor, and you could see where part of the plane had busted through the wall, and the firefighters wouldn’t let us in. They were scared the entire wall was going to collapse. You could still see a tire and some unrecognizable little small portion of the plane. –Specialist Kristopher Leigh Sorensen, Medical Laboratory Technician

Firefighters Carlton Burkhammer and Brian Moravitz "spotted an intact seat from the plane's cockpit with a chunk of the floor still attached."

www.rense.com...

“We discovered cockpit wreckage at our feet while attempting to rescue people from a Navy operations area.”
www.geoffmetcalf.com...

“Shaeffer stood on a service road that circled the Pentagon between the B and C rings. A chunk of the 757's nose cone and front landing gear lay on the pavement a few feet away, resting against the B Ring wall.”
www.hamptonroads.com...


[edit on 22-3-2008 by CaptainObvious]

reply to post by Whodunnit


Okay, I'll bite.

Do you know which items, on a typical commercial airliner, have an actual serial number? Which items on 757s and 767s have serial numbers and are typically tracked. Why are they numbered and tracked? Tell me how a FDR identifies the airframe it's attached to, or does it? Which serial numbers should "match" and which do you think don't? Which data points does a FDR track. Which type/model of FDR is typically on a 757 or 767? What was the serial number of the FDR and does it match maintenance records for the airframe(s) in question? When was the last time a “D” check was completed? You have personally researched your claims, right? Or, conversely, at least verified what you’re claiming is accurate?

Which items were recovered from the various wrecks that contained serial numbers and weren’t checked?

reply to post by jthomas

If you read carefully, Leo's premise is false. One does not need to go through any formal process of identifying the wreckage to know what the wreckage is from.

Nice scientific method there.

I don't need any formal process to tell me the Earth is flat either.

Originally posted by jackinthebox
reply to post by jthomas

 

If you read carefully, Leo's premise is false. One does not need to go through any formal process of identifying the wreckage to know what the wreckage is from.

Nice scientific method there.

The scientific method is not at issue here. We knew the wreckage was from AA77, just as we know if you got in a car crash and your car was destroyed, we know it was your car.

Try to understand that any "formal process" of identification was unnecessary to know that the wreckage was from a 757 and from AA77.

Originally posted by CaptainObvious

Hope this helps.... I don't have ALL the names...but here is a short list of SOME of the people that were there followed by quotes from several people that were representing these teams.

Yes, that list has been available for quite awhile and so have numerous reports from some of these groups. Here are just a few of those reports:

Part 1:

Collapse Rescue Operations At The Pentagon 9-11 Attack: A Case Study on Urban Search and Rescue Disaster Response
www.ukfssart.org.uk...
"Operations divided the incident into geographic Divisions (e.g. Division A, B, C, D)for the fire attack, EMS, and rescue operations; and into functional Groups (e.g. Fire Attack Group, Medical Group, Search Group, etc). Then came the collapse, which drastically changed the situation.

"The size of the collapse area and the presence of confirmed live victims before the collapse compelled the Pentagon I.C. to divide the incident into Branches in order to manage the growing scale of the disaster and the large number of fire, EMS, and urban search and rescue (US&R) resources that would be required to handle the incident. He established a Fire Attack Branch (to manage all the suppression operations) and a US&R Branch, both of which would function until the last victims were removed and the building secured twelve days later."

www.arlingtonva.us...
"Arlington County After-Action Report on the Response to the September 11 Terrorist Attack on the Pentagon

"This After-Action Report (AAR) describes the activities of Arlington County and the supporting jurisdictions, government agencies, and other organizations in response to the September 11, 2001, terrorist attack on the Pentagon. This incident produced a Unique paradigm of response considerations and requirements. It was a major fire and rescue operation within the broader context of a terrorist attack. This terrorist attack occurred in Arlington County, VA, but at a U.S. military facility under the direct control Of the Secretary of Defense. The incident response engaged a large number of agencies, organizations, and individuals from all levels of government and the private sector, and it lasted for an extended period."


THE PENTAGON ATTACK ON 9-11: ARLINGTON COUNTY (VA) FIRE DEPARTMENT RESPONSE
www.fireengineering.com...

"After the fire was under control, resources were directed at recovering victims. The task of recovery fell to the FBI and a complement of military personnel. However, because of the significant number of support columns destroyed and damaged in the impact, it was feared that structural collapse was inevitable if not imminent. The ACFD turned to its resident experts, the TRT, to resolve the situation. For incidents of any magnitude, the team uses a joint effort between the ACFD and AFD TRTs. This crisis required every last bit of effort and expertise from both departments. Command had recognized early in the incident that it would need substantial support at the Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA) level. The IC called for the mobilization of the Fairfax and Montgomery County USAR teams and two task forces from the NMRT. This request was predicated on the region's mutual-aid agreement and the local jurisdictions' experience in working with each other. Chief Plaugher directed Chief Schwartz to increase the number of requested teams to four. The additional teams were from Virginia Beach and Tennessee. Because of the protracted nature of the response, a team from New Mexico was also deployed several days later, as was the local MDW TRT stationed at Fort Belvoir. Normally, the request to solicit federal support would go through state channels; however, because FEMA representatives were already at the Pentagon, FEMA approved the request and notified the State EOC.

"The USAR teams began working around the clock in 12-hour shifts for the next eight days to shore up and stabilize the precarious condition of the building. After several days, the FEMA schedule of 12 hours on and 24 hours off was implemented, but many of the local team members found that to be more disruptive to their recovery because of their having to adapt from a day-oriented to a night-oriented work shift. The ACFD/AFD team had never undertaken an operation of this scope; therefore, the guidance and assistance of the internationally experienced Fairfax and Montgomery County USAR teams were invaluable. They provided insight in the management and planning stages and helped orient the initial efforts. This close working relationship gave both components an opportunity to witness the high level of competence of the other and forged a tight, cohesive bond that will pay dividends in future undertakings."

MDW Engineers honored for Operation Noble Eagle
www.belvoir.army.mil...
"Soldiers from Fort Belvoir's Military District of Washington Engineer Company had mixed emotions Friday about being honored for their part in Operation Noble Eagle at the Pentagon following the Sept. 11 terrorist attack on America.

"The MDW Engineer Company is the only unit in the U.S. Army that specializes in collapsed-building rescue. The soldiers deployed to the Pentagon immediately after the attack and worked continuous 24-hour shifts until Sept. 21."

Part 2:

A Review of the Temporary Shoring Used to Stabilize the Pentagon After the Terrorist Attacks of September 11th, 2001
www.aesvn.org...
"During the deployment at the Pentagon, four FEMA Urban Search and Rescue Task Forces worked together to assess the structural damage and to stabilize the structure to allow recovery of victims and evidence. A fifth Task Force from New Mexico (NMTF1)
was brought in during the last few days to relieve the teams that had been there all week and to finalize shoring operations."
[...]
"When deployed, an US&R Task Force is made up of 62 specialists grouped into four major areas of expertise: Search, Rescue, Technical and Medical. These groups include professional firefighters, paramedics, doctors, engineers, heavy rigging specialists, K-9 search dog teams, logistics, communications and planning personnel."
[...]
"The Fairfax County FEMA US&R Task Force, Virginia Task Force One (VA-TF1) was alerted at 10:56 a.m. on the morning of September 11th. Task Force members were instructed to contact Task Force headquarters and report to Fire Station 18 in Falls
Church, VA as quickly as possible with full gear. Two buses were chartered and the Task Force, along with its truck loads of equipment were escorted by police to the Pentagon."
[...]
"FEMA deployed four other US&R Task Forces to the Pentagon."
[...]
"In addition to the US&R Task Forces, FEMA had an Incident Support Team (IST) in place in the early hours of the incident. The IST is a small group of experienced US&R veterans that provide logistical and planning support to the Task Forces during the
operation."
[...]
"The reconnaissance quickly determined that it was unlikely there were any survivors in the building due to the intense fire caused by the jet fuel. The fire had been so intense, it has been estimated that the heat in some areas exceeded 2,000 degrees Fahrenheit. Since it was unlikely that there were any survivors, the mission quickly turned from a rescue operation into recovery of victims and evidence."
[...]
"Debris had to be removed from hazardous areas before shoring could begin. The United States Army brought several units to the site to provide additional manpower for clearing and removing debris. After stockpiling the debris, it was hauled to a
parking lot on the north side of the building where the FBI spread it out and sorted through it for evidence. Occasio nally a victim or evidence was found while removing the debris, which delayed operations even longer as the appropriate agency was called in for removal."

The Role of the Volunteer Fire Service in the September 11, 2001 Terrorist Attacks
www.nvfc.org...
"Research during the course of this project found that 1,930 volunteer firefighters, EMTs, and administrative volunteers from approximately 80 volunteer fire and rescue organizations contributed nearly 30,000 hours of service22 in response to the September 11 attacks at the Pentagon."
[...]
"When Flight 77 crashed into the Pentagon, however, the regional system responded with volunteer and career firefighters
and EMTs from Virginia, Maryland, and the District of Columbia."
[...]

Capturing History: Photojournalists and 9/11
www.loc.gov...

Necessarily, any claim that AA77 did not hit the Pentagon must include the statements from these people as to what they actually saw and handled. But since the question was first asked of 9/11 Truthers in 2002, not one has answered it.

That's quite remarkable, isn't it?

reply to post by jthomas

The scientific method is not at issue here. We knew the wreckage was from AA77, just as we know if you got in a car crash and your car was destroyed, we know it was your car.

Wrong. I have filled out many accident reports, and the VIN number is always included. In the event of a fatal wreck, or even a felony involving the vehicle VIN numbers are verified on the frame, motor, firewall etc.

reply to post by jthomas


Nice cop out. I asked you for your evidence to support your claim that 1,000+ people identified the plane wreckage.

You have now demonsrated that you will not. So much for your claims that we have to provide you with evidence of our claims eh?

reply to post by CaptainObvious



Thanks CO. I still didn't see where any of those quotes can lead people to a positive identification of flight 77.

Plane wreckage is just that until you positively identify which plane it was.

To all those who do not even accept the possibility that there might be a domestic conspiracy surrounding the events of 9/11, please tell me how you can prove that the plane that hit the Pentagon was not a different plane than the one reported. That is assuming of course, that it was indeed a plane that hit the Pentagon.

For you to deny that there is even the possibility of a conspiracy, is illogical considering the history of deception by our leadership, and irresponsible as a citizen of the revolutionary ideals upon which this nation was founded.

Originally posted by jackinthebox
reply to post by jthomas

 

The scientific method is not at issue here. We knew the wreckage was from AA77, just as we know if you got in a car crash and your car was destroyed, we know it was your car.

Wrong. I have filled out many accident reports, and the VIN number is always included. In the event of a fatal wreck, or even a felony involving the vehicle VIN numbers are verified on the frame, motor, firewall etc.

The VIN is neither needed to know it was a car, nor that it was your car unless you stole it. You keep missing the point.

Originally posted by Griff
reply to post by jthomas

 

Nice cop out. I asked you for your evidence to support your claim that 1,000+ people identified the plane wreckage.

Nice cop out, Griff. Read carefully. I said "saw and/or recovered the wreckage."

Tell us what wreckage they recovered, Griff. You know who to go to now. I gave you the list.

What was the wreckage they saw?

Originally posted by jackinthebox
To all those who do not even accept the possibility that there might be a domestic conspiracy surrounding the events of 9/11, please tell me how you can prove that the plane that hit the Pentagon was not a different plane than the one reported. That is assuming of course, that it was indeed a plane that hit the Pentagon.

For you to deny that there is even the possibility of a conspiracy, is illogical considering the history of deception by our leadership, and irresponsible as a citizen of the revolutionary ideals upon which this nation was founded.

I don't know of anyone who would "deny the possibility of a conspiracy."

What we DO know is that no such conspiracy has been demonstrated in the six years since it was first claimed. We are perfectly happy to see the evidence, but none has been presented. There are of course a multitude of claims and assertions, but no evidence.

You are also perfectly welcome to demonstrate that all of the independent evidence demonstrating that AA77 hit the Pentagon is false. But that is a burden on your shoulders, one that 9/11 Truthers are always reluctant to assume.

We all have waited six years for your evidence. I guess we can keep waiting.

reply to post by jthomas

The VIN is neither needed to know it was a car, nor that it was your car unless you stole it. You keep missing the point.

And what point would that be? That we should accept what we are told without proof?

Okay, so the VIN is not needed to prove it was a car. What does that tell me? Nothing. I do not need proper identification to tell me that something airborne hit the Pentagon. That much I accept.

But at a bad enough wreck, you will have to use the VIN number to positively identify the make and model of the vehicle. Furthermore, if it is a stolen vehicle, you will need it to verify who the owners are. I belive a hijacked plane is a stolen vehicle is it not?

reply to post by jthomas

What we DO know is that no such conspiracy has been demonstrated in the six years since it was first claimed. We are perfectly happy to see the evidence, but none has been presented. There are of course a multitude of claims and assertions, but no evidence.

There is no proof, I will grant you. But there is indeed evidence. Did you expect the perpetrators to not hide and destroy the evidence of their crime? Especially if it was in their possesion? All of these claims and assertions must now be considered, given the evidence of a flawed investigation by those charged with finding the truth.

You are also perfectly welcome to demonstrate that all of the independent evidence demonstrating that AA77 hit the Pentagon is false. But that is a burden on your shoulders, one that 9/11 Truthers are always reluctant to assume.

Once again you expose the flaw in your logic. The onus is upon the government to make its case as to what happened based upon the data and physical evidence. They are tasked with making the official investigation. I will not let my eyes see, nor my ears hear that which is not evident. If their investigations can not fulfill its obligation, then a new investigation is warranted, by those without vested interest in hiding the truth.

The fact that the materials which would settle this argument are kept locked away from independent scrutiny is certainly cause for suspicion. There should be a demand to have those materials properly examined.




[edit on 3/22/0808 by jackinthebox]

[edit on 3/22/0808 by jackinthebox]

Originally posted by jthomas
Tell us what wreckage they recovered, Griff. You know who to go to now. I gave you the list.
What was the wreckage they saw?

How do we know what the alleged wreckage was, when it was not formally identified?

Sloppy procedure has resulted in any alleged wreckage, that was allegedly from the plane, that allegedly hit the Pentagon, being unidentified.

All that believers of the official story need to do is to provide the forensic evidence that proves the alleged crash was the alleged flight AA77. Where is the forensic evidence? Anecdotal evidence does not identify a plane.

people.....the VIN number is ALWAYS used.....dont fool yourselves. I was a claims agent and you get nowhere with out the VIN and/or the license plate....both identify the car. Get it right and do some research. Unless you can provide that you have NO case.

Originally posted by jthomas

Originally posted by Griff
reply to post by jthomas

 

Nice cop out. I asked you for your evidence to support your claim that 1,000+ people identified the plane wreckage.

Nice cop out, Griff. Read carefully. I said "saw and/or recovered the wreckage."

Tell us what wreckage they recovered, Griff. You know who to go to now. I gave you the list.

What was the wreckage they saw?

And as stated before. Plane wreckage is just that until positively identified as flight 77. How hard is that to understand?

reply to post by Griff


Griff... What you aren't grasping here is that there was no question as to what hit the pentagon. I don't think Jthomas was looking to cop out. He was clearly stating that literally thousands of people saw what was left of an airplane.

There was no reason to sift through thousands of tons of wreckage to find a serial number. The FDR was found.

This FDR actually had recorded information from a flight the day before?

Pilots 4 911 Truth even state this somewhere on their site.

The FDR that was found by firefighters gives you what you (truthers) are looking for. That the FDR was from flight 77 and contained the flight data from 911 and the several hours from a prior flight.

Now, if you want to start with the "planting the FDR with doctored data" B.S. then go for it. I would love to know how it was done.