Pentagon DNA Evidence....Is it Possible?

Originally posted by magicmushroom
Captain why do you keep quoting bogus rubbish, the crime scenes were preserved oh really. Both crime scenes were conntaminated..........

Please supply a source that shows the so called contamination you are claiming. Please also point out what "rubbish" I have posted.

Originally posted by magicmushroom
The facts are that at both the twin towers and the Pentagon work was started to clear the sites asap therefore denying any investigation team first hand knowledge of the sites and evidence.

You need to gain a little more knowledge on what a search and rescue mission involves. This was what was going on at all impact sites. Crime scene and search and rescue. If you look at the Pentagon. (since thats what this thread is about) Take a peek at how much work was involved just to get access to the victims. There was a very large crew of shoring workers that had to make sure areas of the Pentagon was safe so that crews could get in there. Does this contaminate the crime scene? No.


Collapse Rescue Operations At The Pentagon 9-11 Attack
A Case Study on Urban Search and Rescue Disaster Response
By Larry Collins
www.ukfssart.org.uk...

Originally posted by magicmushroom
In any other situation the crime scene is completely sealed and not touched till forensic teams can gather evidence. ............

How the heck can a forensic team get access in an unstable building?? How can you gather evidence that is under hundreds of thousands of tones of burning debris???

Originally posted by magicmushroomThe haste in which these sites were cleared is evidence that the real perps did not want the real evidence to be found. In reality such sites would not have been cleared for months till every grain of evidence could be found ..........

you lack knowledge in missions like these. So, I won't blame you for this uninformed quote.

Originally posted by magicmushroom
The real question is why do people such as you really want to believe the so called official story..........

No the real question is WHY do you ignore the facts? I don't WANT to believe anything...thats the difference between me and you and other truthers. You guys ignore facts. Read the document that is in this post. It may help you understand. I doubt it though. Don't put words in my mouth either, I know what ALL governments abilities are.

Originally posted by magicmushroom

That you are willing to believe in alleged facts when it is known that the so called evidence from these sites has been grossly contaminated and ..........

Back it up Mushroom... please provide evidence for you claim.

Originally posted by magicmushroom

Evidence from crimes scenes so compromised such as these would and could not ever be used in law to prove a fact of an event or truth. You omit the theory that if there were passengersd on the planes they could have been killed elsewhere and DNA evidence gathered from the persons to be later used as so called evidence.

No I omitted NOTHING. No one has raised that point on this thread until now. (unless I missed it) You need to tell me, since civilians worked alongside government officials, how this was done? Again...if you bothered to read the hows and whys that I have posted in this thread...you would not have written such a long winded baseless post.

Originally posted by magicmushroomThe pictures of burnt bodies at the Pentagon does not mean that there were bodies at the Pentagon. They are just pictures of burnt bodies and nothing more. Pictures are not proof positive of time, place or event.

This is further proof that truthers ignore ALL evidence. This was a statement I expected from Ultima. You will deny ALL evidence that show your theory false.



The rest of your rant was off topic and therefor since I was warned yesterday for it, I will refrain from commenting on it.

I'd like to thank jthomas for this quote from anpther thread

Originally posted by jthomas

"The reconnaissance quickly determined that it was unlikely there were any survivors in the building due to the intense fire caused by the jet fuel. The fire had been so intense, it has been estimated that the heat in some areas exceeded 2,000 degrees Fahrenheit. Since it was unlikely that there were any survivors, the mission quickly turned from a rescue operation into recovery of victims and evidence."

So, those bodies went through 2,000 degrees Fahrenheit but were still able to be identified with the older version of DNA testing?

Really?

D, not many people need to be involved, this is the mistake that so many make. They beleive that because so many people/agancies were involved therfore any wrong doing or manipulation cannot take place.

The simple fact is this that the perps rely on these people and agencies to do their respective jobs as they would normally do. How would any of these P/A know if evidence is planted or otherwise, they would not be looking for it would they so they are just unwitting accomplices to an event.

Just like in any crime the Police etc. investigate and act on the evidence they find but that does not infer that the evidence could be false or planted. Finding bodies at the Pentagon is exactly what you would expect to find in such an attack, but who those people were and how they died is a different matter. Obtaining DNA does not prove how the event happened or what killed them. DNA is a test to aid identification and as such the crime scene can be contaminated by others and the DNA samples themselves can be tamperd with, How many people do you think that takes well just one thats all.

To simple believe that even if a large number of people could be involved but could not keep quite is again being ignorant of history.

Captain, you have nothing to offer here but the so called proofs that have been aired by the establishment and you misunderstand me completely. I'm not saying the DNA tests dont work or anything else. What I am saying is that you cannot believe the so called truth from a lying and corrupt Goverment and that is the point that you and others miss.

No Goverment anywhere in anytime can be trusted, again read history for that fact. With that in mind you treat anything they say or do with a big helping of misstrust. The current US Goverment and past ones have colluded to kill and murder not just people of other countries but even its own people. Yet people like you keep banging on about what you think the truth is when you are blind as a bat.

You refuse to look at all the evidence and pick out what suits so you can launch an agenda full of Goverment speak. I don t know whats worse those who carry out the deeds or those who support them. The fact that we were told over and over again by so many so called esperts that the alleged plane that hit the Pentagon vapourised in the fire yet so much DNA was left to identify all the bodies, oh really.

Lets face it your Goverment aided by others killed thousands of your fellow countrymen. Do you remember WACO, OKLAHOMA, RUBY RIDGE ETC. those murderous acts were not carried out by Muslim Terrorists they were carried out by American terrorrists all with official state backing and you have the audacity to come here and try and tell us the Goverment was not repsonsible for any of these acts when there is proof positive of their involvment.

What is it, is it simply the scale of 9/11 is to big for you to grasp or understand. You ask for proofs well they are there, just study your own history if your really interested. I would start with Pearl Harbour and then take in M. Luther and JFK. As stated before dont just look at this event in isolation but as a whole.

reply to post by magicmushroom



So, by not many people, how many are you talking about? 25? 50?

Plus, you would need people at all locations, with the capability of planting or compromising the evidence. With access to theses scenes, and capable of not drawing much attention.....including the Pentagon.

Originally posted by Griff
So, those bodies went through 2,000 degrees Fahrenheit but were still able to be identified with the older version of DNA testing?
Really?

Actually the photo I posted a page or two back...showed 3 victims. They did not appear to have been incinerated in 2000 degree flames. It would seem that if just those victims were identified...then why not state that?

The fact that they stated 184 of 189 means some were not identified. Why lie about how many were identified by Nov 16th 2001 then? WHy not say "We can't positively identify any of the victims until newly developed DNA testing is done"?

D, you would not need people at all locations, evidence can be added tampered with removed months later. But I will give you one thing to think about. Do you remember the terrorist passport that was found just hours after the towers came down. How possible is that, that in a buildings that was pulverised to dust, half a million tons of debris and we are later told that you could not find one intact item from the buildings contents or bodies just how likely is that to have happened.

Of course it is possible anything is but given all the other evidence at the scene why is it out of the hundreds of thousands of items in those buildings and the contents of the planes the only thing that survived intact was a passport and a terrorist one at that. How many peope would be needed for that to be found, just one. And just who was this person at the site. Whilst everyone near it was dead or fleeing for their lives this one regular joe just happend to be near a half millon tons of rubble cloaked in a storm of plaster board particles that managed to find an intact passport lying on the ground.

Or was he just part of the plot "finding" a piece of highly incriminating evidence to give weight to the official story. This find was a mistake by the perps, it would have been more credible if more personal effects had been found, but even the best laid plans can go wrong and in the fear, terror rage and anger that follows these events little details like this are soon forgotten, I will let you work it out.

reply to post by magicmushroom



I guess i'm curious why you are hesitant to give approx numbers of how many would be involved. You say not many, but how many is not many? What agency would they work for....that had access to the Pentagon, crime scenes, tc...with little or no notice?

D, I'm not hesitant on this subject but it such an event would need the help of outside agencies and as such it would be hard to say just how many were involved and has to what level of involvement. Again I think you are looking it along the lines of the more involved the more chance of leaks etc. But do bear in mind those that plot to kill thousands would not hesitate to kill those who committed the deed, tying up those loose ends so to speak.

As for timescale my belief is that the aforementioned events in the US are connected, practice makes perfect. So what was the time between Oklahoma and the first attack on the towers and the time from that first attack to 9/11. That would give you an rough time scale of planning.

How many people would it take to plant a micro nuke in each towers etc. the norm would be to use 4 to 6 man teams. From the top you would have about a dozen behind the real plan, then gofers with limited info fed to the teams carrying out the deads. Calculate the number of events on the day and multiply the numbers. Then kill all the team members involved by contract killers who would not know the reason for the his and could care less anyway.

The main issue would be to compartmentise all the info, each group only has one piece of the jigsaw so cannot see the whole picture. Then dont forget after the attack you would literally have thousands of people officially involved in the events who goping about their normal duities would try to work out what really happened but even here when anything like the truth was being found the spoilers would be at work.

From the great buffon himself why would anyone trying to find out what really happened be called unpatriotic and if you dont side with us your siding with the terrorists, what better way to shut people up.Any normal law abiding citizenwould want to know the truth no matter where the trail led to.

The fact is there is and there have always been those who plot to kill in the name of greed and power and there is no shortage of willing participents ready to help them for same.

Put simply the number involved would probally be less than a hundred most of whom will now be dead. If you look at the agencies involved its not that hard to do, The armed forces. Police, FBI what do they do, well they follow orders, they do what they are told, and if someone says we stand down tomorrow then thats what they do. That dose not mean that thousands of these people were involved in the event it just means they do as they are told and usually do not ask why. They are indirectly involved but have no knowledge why.

Well, I see this thread has turned into rants of paranoia and baseless accusations.

Mushroom, no one is denying that the government is not capable of doing horrendous actions. You have not provided one SINGLE shred of evidence to back up your rants.


You refuse to look at ANY evidence. You said so yourself.

Your mind has been made up...you are not seeking the truth. In your made up mind, you know what it is. Thats sad.

reply to post by Griff


Griff... what "older" version?? Please show me where there is older DNA testing?

Captain if you cannot tell the difference between logical debate and rants thats your problem. To state that you agree that Goverments do wrong and then expect said Goverment to provide honest and impartial facts is rather naieve. I have provided you with more than enough real facts and info for you to persue its your choice if you use it or not.

Perhaps you are upset because I have not acquiesced to your theory. Believe it or not I do keep an open mind on anything, one acquires knowledge constantly but one needs to look at the whole issue. Screaming one has not provided proofs or evidence is not absence of proof or evidence.

For you to pursue the argument of the efficacy of DNA testing of victims found at the Pentagon site you must include all variables irrespective of ones personal view. You have failed to do that so the whole preamble of your thinking is therefore flawed. Only when you take all the evidence into account believed or not can you then base a sound argument upon the subject.

Lesson over.

reply to post by magicmushroom


Logical Debate??

In your thousand word rant, you have offered nothing but accusations. I am here to listen to evidence. I am here to look at what is out there.

Am I naive? Not at all. I started looking at the possibility of a 911 cover up STARTING with the Pentagon. It didn't take long to figure out what happened there was not a cover up in regards to what happened at the Pentagon.

As I stated to Griff... nothing is impossible as to what could have happened. All one has to do is look at the evidence by ALL people involved in the recovery mission at the Pentagon.

The government was not the only entity at the Pentagon in the minutes post impact and the months that followed.

If you have any information to counter the evidence that I have posted, please feel free to share it with me. I am all ears.



[edit on 22-3-2008 by CaptainObvious]

Captain, justt o assist you read the following; "Immediately following the attack the Pentagon decided to manage medical and mortuary needs with military resources, DMORT personnel were redeployed to Pennsylvannia on 13th September" So as you can see from that DMORT played no part in evidence gathering at the Pentagon site.

reply to post by magicmushroom


You might find this interesting....

www.ukfssart.org.uk...

Recovering the Deceased
The following approach was applied to the recovery of Pentagon Incident fatalities:
When a victim was located, work in the area was halted to protect the body, personal belongings, and evidence. An FBI evidence team (one of several on constant standby in front of the collapse) would document the site and gather evidence. If physical extrication was required, a Rescue Squad from the assigned US&R task force was given this task. The next step in the process was a Military Mortuary Team who collected and removed the victim from the building.

reply to post by magicmushroom


Magic... you are correct. I am the one that posted the link to their website in my OP.

Please read through all the links I posted. The military was in charge of the mission. It was the Pentagon remember? That being said...civilians were among the thousands that were involved in the search, rescue, repairs, gathering remains..etc. etc.

Now, instead of showing me the links, please provide me with the evidence that shows the government was planting burnt bodies and charred remains.

Thanks again.

C.O.

Captain, I did not say the Gov was planting bodies or remains, there was no need to was there as the building was occupide in part and we are told at least from the official story that a plane carrying passengers hit the Pentagon therefore there should be some human remains. That said it dose not mean the evidence following is factual or relates to said bodies.
Your coming at this argument from the basis of were the tests carried out feasible the answer to that is yes and no, yes under the right circumstances you can extract viable DNA and sometimes you cannot.

The chances from getting viable DNA from so many victims given that some would have been entirely consummed by fire and others would have been tainted from a miriad of chemicals is highly doubtful. Again alleging that DNA was obtained from personal effects from the plane when the official story states that the plane was entirely consummed is again highly dubious.

Most people have never even seen a dead body or what fire and natural elements do to it. DNA gathering is still not an exact science and its not like its portrayed in CSI.

The problem is that the official story is like a swiss cheese and as an example even all the human remains found at WACO were not positively identified. Some times you just cannot get the evidence that you require. But from the point of 9/11 the perps had to make sure that the people believed the cover story.

reply to post by magicmushroom


Then Mushroom....are you stating that the results of the DNA tests were faked?

Please explain to me how the Pentagon when down. In your opinion.

Thanks.

Originally posted by Disclosed
You might find this interesting...

But still no evidnece that the bodies from the planes were in the buildings.

Originally posted by ULTIMA1

Originally posted by Disclosed
You might find this interesting...

But still no evidnece that the bodies from the planes were in the buildings.

Other than the DNA evidence, body fragments, and personal effects?

Originally posted by Disclosed
Other than the DNA evidence, body fragments, and personal effects?

Please show me an official report that states the bodies from the planes were in the buildings.

The fragmants and personal effects does not show bodies from the planes being in the buildings, they can be from people that wer ein the building.