Is Israel using ‘Thermobaric ’ weapons?

Back to the subject of the thread. Something everyone seems to be missing is that these types of explosions are typical of the explosions that explosives manufacturers experience. You get lots of explosive dust in the air, a small ignition, and BOOM, you have one heck of a large explosion. This is more of a possibility that use of thermobaric weapons which are difficult to deploy.

Why shouldn't anyone be able to live anywhere in the world in peace under a reasonable set of laws. What is wrong with Jewish people moving to their ancient homeland. The fact that they have created a nation with their own laws and not Muslim law? Being that people have been moving around the planet for thousands of years, who is to say what people have historical claim on any land. Maybe we should start by moving all the Arabs back to Saudi Arabia.

reply to post by pavil

Yes, but part and parcel of "unconventional warfare" is that one side will use civilians as shields, which is not very warrior like. On top of that Hezbollah intentionally targets civilian centers in Israel that have no military targets or significence by them. To me, that is against the Hague and Geneva conventions, but I don't hear anyone telling them they are so Evil.

were back to disproportionate force - hezbollah don`t have F16`s , Apache`s or warships , they make do with what they have , which as much as the outcry is anti-tank weapons explosives and missiles , and whilst it might not be `warrior like` this is war - the days of chiverly and honour are long gone , all we have now is missions , objectives and body counts

It's ok if Hezbollah directly targets civilians in Israel but watch out if Israel takes out a Katyusha Site that is parked in somebody's back yard or some Hezbollah Troops holed up in a school or hospital or a very densely populated civilian area.

i don`t think its that - reacting to the location of a rocket launcher is fine in war - counter battery fire anyone , its the massive AOE force thats used - as another poster said , the get 1 person in a building israel use artillery on it - and arti isn`t the most accurate in the world so will miss and kill innocnets , whereas the US enters the building with breaching teams to get the 1 person.

I just make the point that Hezbollah, supposedly one of the best trained and armed groups on the Muslim side, still has to resort to cowardly attacks, doesn't speak well of the fighting capabilities of that side IMO. The only ones that fight well in the Muslim world are the Egyptians, IMO. No offense to all the rest, your track history belies you.

a tiny bit biased are you i do concur about the egyptians BUT lets also look at what israel did AFTER the cease fire on the golan heights - israel also totaly ignore the ceonventions of war when they feel like it , and also openly attacked the USS Liberty for discovering the slaughter.

Sure you can fight that way, just be prepared to suffer civilian casualties. And be prepared to be called a coward when you intentionally attack civillian targets with no military targets in sight.

1 mans coward is another mans guerilla

Wars are hardly ever fair, one side almost always has a significent edge over the other, otherwise you end up with the trench warfare of WWI.

like that analogy actually - it could be very much considered that gaza is trench warfare - months and years of fighting with little or no progress and just people die; the great military might of the IDF vs the `freedom fighters` of hezbollah , and here we are 60 years after the war started and its the same fighting over the same piece of land.

oh but israel want to bring a new holocaust and get rid of them.... but its the paletinians own fault this time (now who else said that line a few years ago )

Originally posted by themillersdaughter
reply to post by BloodthirstyCapitalist

 

"Offered them land"? (You might want to check out the new thread 'Israel plans scandolous new settlement' that was just started. THIS is a perfect example of why Palestinians want to throw rocks at Israel. They're bloodthirsty expansionists.)

The Israeli's have offered land NUMEROUS times, and the Palestinians just slap their hand back. Under what terms would your Palestinian buddies ever actually broker peace with the Israelis? Total capitulation enough, or should the Israelis just line up and let the Arabs shoot them? Course, the Palestinians are a well-oiled political machine, and you can be certain that any agreement with them will be honored, right? Unless of course, they break out into factional infighting, and a number of party heads with Hamas are handcuffed and thrown off roofs... but that would NEVER happen.

I have a friend named Art Gish (Google Art Gish/Hebron). He and his wife are active in the Christian Peacekeeper's Teams...

I commend your friend on his brave service. Way to go Art!

That being said, why would I ever believe any of the litany of purported offensives you just listed? According to you, Israelis are demons who, on top of everything else you wrote, probably wait under the beds of Palestinian children so they can kill them in the night.

If I gave your list the benefit of the doubt, is any of that supposed to assuage the violence that Palestinian terrorists have committed? The suicide bombings, the hjackings, the countless murders? Palestinians danced in the streets when the Yeshiva massacre happened. Can't seem to recall when the Jews celebrated the murders of 8 palestinians....

One man's terrorist IS another man's freedom fighter. Americans were terrorists in the Revolution. They were insurgents, actually. I shudder to think what you would have done to them if you'd been around back then.

That's awfully cute. America's Founding Fathers = Palestinians, in your eyes? I can totally see that, except for the fact that A) the Colonial Army never willfully massacred large numbers of British Civilians, and B) the rules of war were followed, and British prisoners were actually treated quite humanely. Torries were allowed to return to Britain, if they so choosed. The American Revolution was fought by men of honor, and substance. Not some uneducated mongrel who straps c4 to his chest in the vain hope of being escorted up to the Great Whorehouse in the sky.

Lest you think I am just an anti-semitic blowhard...

Why would anyone think that.....

If there's a God, someone will get a good bead on one of them before they take off for Paraguay.

If I may ask the moderators, Is it now acceptable to advocate the assassination of Government officials on the board? Are we throwing all respectability to the wind now?

In closing, I just have one comment. People have been attempting to enslave, or destroy, the Jews for much of their existance. These people have gone through numerous diasporas, a holocaust, and the persecution of their people by more dictators than nearly any other group of people. Yet, they stand strong. They remain steadfast in their convictions, and in their faith. End of the day, do you really believe that the hateful and violent actions of a few psychopaths will really move them from their home? They were in Israel before the Palestinians, and they will be in Israel after the Palestinians. Once this reality is acknowledged, then peace can begin to work.

Originally posted by Harlequin
were back to disproportionate force - Hezbollah don`t have F16`s , Apache`s or warships , they make do with what they have , ...

I agree with you on many of your points, still Hezbollah for being such mighty warriors as they talk themselves up to be, are just your run of the mill guerrilla force, nothing special.

i don`t think its that - reacting to the location of a rocket launcher is fine in war - counter battery fire anyone , its the massive AOE force that used - as another poster said , the get 1 person in a building Israel use artillery on it -...

We don't always do that either, there is ample evidence of the US causing collateral damage and death to civilians. You use the ordinance necessary to take our your foe with a high degree of probability. If you don't like guerrillas taking up residence in your neighborhood then do something about it before the shells and rockets start landing on you. Israel seems to choose the next step up when it comes to ordinance but they usually get their target as well.

a tiny bit biased are you

i do concur about the Egyptians BUT lets also look at what Israel did AFTER the cease fire on the Golan heights -

Not that biased, the modern military history of much of the Arab world is one of getting their clocks cleaned, look it up.

Who started the shelling in Northern Israel in 1967? Syria reaped what they sowed as far as the Golan is concerned. I don't make Israel out to be saints, they did and do what is necessary for them as a country. What did Israel do after the ceasefire on June 11, 1967? Are you referring to taking of Hermon and Majdal Shams on the 12th? Just mopping up operations, why wouldn't they seize the highest ground there, when it was still in progress.

1 mans coward is another mans guerilla

Intentionally targeting civilians is cowardly no matter what. If Israel did or does it they would be cowardly as well. I do agree that Israel is pretty heavy handed when they go after targets, but they are always trying for a target. Hezbollah and Hamas just lob stuff at cities hoping to kill totally unrelated civilians. I will call them cowardly guerrillas from now on.

like that analogy actually - it could be very much considered that Gaza is trench warfare - months and years of fighting with little or no progress and just people die; the great military might of the IDF vs the `freedom fighters` of Hezbollah , and here we are 60 years after the war started and its the same fighting over the same piece of land.

Thanks, I assume your mean Hamas in Gaza not Hezbollah. Your Gaza analogy is only political, not military. Israel could militarily wipe Hamas out of Gaza in no time if they decided to.

Quite honestly it is both sides fault for the lack of lasting Peace in the area. Some Arab and some Palestinian factions will not rest till all of "historical Palestine" (that's a whole other thread) is Liberated from the "Zionists". Till those sides will accept Israel existence in the first place, there will be conflict. Most of Israel seems to accept the notion of a Palestinian State next to them, can't say the same percentage exists on the Palestinian side though.

Looks what happens when Israel unilaterally withdraws from an area. Gaza, by any definition, is a mess. What incentive does Israel have to do that again without strong guarantees of Actual Peace coming from it? Palestinians will have to come to grips with what they actually want, either endless conflict for more generations or accepting Israel as a neighbor. Palestinians have to decide what they want for their children, the major choice is there.

oh but Israel want to bring a new holocaust and get rid of them.... but its the palestinians own fault this time (now who else said that line a few years ago

)

I always have a problem with this. Why do you accuse Israel of genocide and Holocaust when they have had 40 years to do it and still there are Palestinians living? I would think that after 40 years of trying, Israel would have succeded in a genocide if they really tried. That's a very weak arguement. Back up your claim of Holocaust, a systematic campaign to erridacate Palestinians.

A lot of the current problem is that Hamas and Fatah do not agree on a course of action. Are you disputing this?


Drifting way off topic as these threads always seem to do. Sorry.

[edit on 11-3-2008 by pavil]

[edit on 11-3-2008 by pavil]

is there any confirmation of this outside of Al-jazeera?

I don't see the connection here, thermobarics are explosives, so how are the injuries described in the report connected? If they were close enough to the bomb to be effected, you'd expect them to show signs of being injured by an explosive and burned.

I don't deny that this is terrible, but show me something besides Al-jazeera and I'll take it a lot more seriously.


err...apparently conversation has strayed past this point and onto the usual so...nvm

[edit on 11-3-2008 by avingard]

reply to post by BloodthirstyCapitalist


I guess we should only pay attention to the list of atrocities committed by Palestinians. Of course, we should disregard the testimony of people actually WITNESSING the acts of the American backed Israeli regime. The litany of abuses was only one small part of the things people Art and his wife Peggy (who was kidnapped in Iraq and probably only released because of the photo in her pocket of Art in front of the tank) regularly share with college students in their lectures. If you think they have an anti-semitic agenda, you're just delusional.

Conveniently disregard the truth. It's your prerogative. On a site where "Deny Ignorance" is the motto, you sure are failing to do so.

Since Israel has no plans to follow international law, it would be hard to know exactly what would happen if they did. Why should the Palestinians be prepared to stop hostilities in the face of Israel's action? People are willing to die, Israel shouldn't whine when they are getting what they deserve. Like I said before if they REALLY wanted to protect their citizens, they would stop the bloodthirsty expansionism.

Israel will still be there as long as America props them up. If they didn't get billions in defense funds from the US, they'd be throwing rocks just like the Palestinians.

As far my contention that I hope someone metes out justice to our government leaders...as well as the corrupt nation of Israel...I absolutley do...that is my right, is it not?

reply to post by pavil


No, I maintain that there is more to the question that just whether or not civilians are caught in the crossfire.

Even if that is to case, there is a remaining question as to whether or not Israel has the capability to attack the terrorists in a manner that produces less collateral damage which they are not taking advantage of simply because it is easier to blow the heck out of a larger area.

Consider it in this light: Israel could go after Hizbollah with nukes and could still claim that they weren't targeting civilians- civilians were just caught in the cross-fire. But that would be accepting an extremely high level of collateral damage just because it's an easier answer than actually locating where the terrorists are within the city and taking them out through more precise means.

I believe that militaries have an obligation to accept casualties in order to conduct operations with due regard for civilian populations. For a military force to determine that its own safety is more important than that of a civilian population is ridiculous. The military chooses to expose itself to combat; civilians have combat thrust upon them. The military decides which tactical objectives are worth the sacrifice of human lives; civilians have no say. The military has the power therefore the military bears the responsibility.

Israel needs to cowboy the hell up and start getting down where the metal meets the meat before they have any right to call the terrorists cowards.

I'm not even disputing that Israel could be right. That's peripheral. I don't see any civilized viewpoint, regardless of which side it holds to be right, which can deny that for men with guns to decide the fate of unarmed men women and children is tyranny, and runs contrary to the values of both Democracy and Christianity (the two reasons that Americans support Israel, if I may remind you).

This thread is getting a little off topic,

In response to the OP, the news source is Aljezeera, I trust Aljezeera as much as I would trust a crackhead to hold my life savings.

I didnt always have that opinion Aljezeera, until one about a year into the Iraq invasion. I was watching a BBC program on how drasticaly different the perceptions of the war were, by different people.
They compared video footage, of a suicide bombing adn subsequent attack on a market by, insurgants.
They raw footage from a BBC new team, A Fox news crew, and a crew from germany, all in different parts of the market filming at the same time.
First they looked at the raw footage, then compared it to what was actually shone on the air.

Heres what happend ,from the BBC footage, its midafter noon at the market, there are a lot of people doing their thing. There are US military personel, around the market and mingling with the Iraqis, they have a shot of a soldier bartering for a piece of fruit wth a guy in the market.
The BBC reporter comments on how relaxed the tone is in the market.
Right about this time you see a guy on a scooter ride by, the cameraman kind of takes notice, but not really. But you can see a couple of soldiers in the background really notice the guy, because they both turn to look at him, with a WTF, look on thier faces, and BOOOM.
There is a huge explosion just of camera, and the camera goes down a,d out.
Then they show the footage by the german team, from the other side of the market. You see the same scene, the market is full and the mood is light. You see the guy on the scooter ride into the shot, and the soldiers in the background turn turn in surprise, and the guy blows up, taking out dozens of people.
SInce the german crew was farther away, the cameraman wasnt blown down or lose his shot, so he got unbroken footage of the event and the subsequent actions by the local and US military.
Instantly you see soldiers rushing into the chaos, not with weapons drawn but trying to help. There is sheer pandemonium in the market people screaming and crying and moaning, there were pieces of bodies and blood everywhere.
A few minutes later as the locals and soldiers are trying to help those still alive, you hear the unmistakeble, report of an AK47, and bullets start t splash around the square.
A US fighter flies overhead, probably about 2000-3000', as the camera turns to the shots and you can see the guy standing on a roof firing into the crowd. Right about this time a soldier runs towards the camera then past as bullets kick up dust around him.
He's been injured by the blast, nut he's running away or shooting back,
he carrying the limp body of a little girl, you can see the anguish in is eyes as he looks at the camera and says "why do they keep doing this?".
You start to hear more gunfire and a soldier comes into the frame and tells them they have to go its not safe, the the camera cuts.
Then they go to the footage by the Fox crew, which was embeded with a US unit responding to the bombing shows up.
They never actually get into the sqaure, but are kept a distance from the action.
You see the action in the square with the people running around, the fighter flys over head as you hear the AK start up. You see the guy on the roof shooting, and the soldier running with the little girl.
All three videos have commoninalty, proving that it was an accurate recording of the days events.
Then they went to the footage that was actually shown on the air by the networks.
The BBC report was just that, they reported that a suicide bomber blew himself up in the market and many civilians were killed, along with several US military personal, in the blast and susequent attack by insurgants.
They had edited footage, of the event, you know several clips for 1 minutes worth, of a ten minute event.
They then showed the German national news footage and it was very much the same as the BBC pretty straight forward reporting of the news.
Then on to fox, the fox coverage was all about how US solder were injured and killed in a bomb attack and machinegun attack.
All they showed was a soldier with a SAW hammering away at something, nothing of the soldiers risking thier lives to save civilians while under enemy fire.
Nor was there any mention of the 3 dozen local killed by the bomb and AK.
Then they showed what was played on Al Jezeera 2 weeks later.
Since they had no news crews themselves they used clips of the footage by the germans BBC and fox.
The commentary went somthing like this,
" A terrible tragedy in Iraq as American warplanes bomb a crowded market place"
They then showed footage of an F16 flying at tree top level, footage that was so obviously from a completly unrelated event.
How could you tell? you might ask, well the rust colored sky of sunset with the general overcast and clouds, was very different from the cloudless blue sky over the market.
So this F16 screams towards and over the camera, then it cuts to the german footage right at the the time of the explosion, not soon enough to see the guy on the scooter blow up, but just a few frames later, so all you see is explosion.
"American soldiers then fired on the helpless crowd"
They showed the FOX shot of the soldier on the SAW, then splice in the german footage of the bullets spalshing around the market, then back a FOX shot of a couple of soldiers, obviously shoot at something above them.
No mention of the AK attack or the suicide bombing.
You could tell they recorded the foriegn news feeds from thier broadcasts and splice it all together with some unrelated footage to concoct this story of US warplanes bombing a market.
They then went out ad did a "man on the street segment" in Aman jordan.
They played a recording of thier broadcast to several jordanians.
And got them all rilled up to dance around and shout "death to america"
"death to america".

I trust Al jezeera to tell me the truth about as much as our president.

Originally posted by Attari
Absalutely disgusting!

Israelis have also used daisy cutters and cluster bombs during the lebanon war while leveling buildings.

This is plain genocide!!! When will the world wake up to these horrors???

Looks like we will just have to wait for Holocaust 2 to happen as quoted by the israeli minister threatning 'shoah' on the palestinians.

Any zionist supporters out there wana justify this horrific act?

Don't forget that in Iraq the U.S. is using uranium depleted waste to coat and dust weapons- also leaving enemy tanks and vehicles contaminated so Iraqis cannot strip them of necessary parts without lethal consequences.

reply to post by dk3000


Yeah, thanks to depleted uranium sabot rounds, Iraqi farmers can't salvage parts from tanks that they could use on their tractors. Have you ever tried plowing 40 acres without a 125mm cannon? Next to impossible.

(edit to correct the bore size of the tanks)

[edit on 11-3-2008 by The Vagabond]

Chances are any type of explosion that is a thermobaric blast is a result of making bombs in the wrong environment. Muslims making bombs in their homes would be highly likely to set off these types of explosions on a fairly regular rate.

Muslims lost all of my sympathy, and I really at one time had considerable, thought that the Palestinians had a point, then they began genocide in Africa along with mass spread rape, and also began trying to take over Europe.

The more I learn about Islam, the more I see it as a cult that should be outlawed and treated like an illegal organization. What can you say about an organization that kills defectors, and maintains control through threats and intimidation. Everytime a young Muslim woman is killed for westernizing they should lock up all the members of her family, the sheikh, and his followers, and see how many others in the group are being controlled by intimidation. Offer protection for those who are willing to testify.

Israel was vastly unoccupied until Jews began migrating there to reclaim the country. Now huge numbers of Arabs claim it as their homeland. What a crock of nonsense.

Originally posted by mybigunit
I wonder if the owners of our media is the reason why it hasnt been printed...hmmm what does all of the owners of the major media have in common hmmmm....

Oh come on, for someone named "mybigunit" you're awfully shy about completeing your anti-semtic statements.

Maybe you meant, they all drive BMWs, right? Or, they all play golf?
No, sadly, that's probably not what you meant.

However, I would encourage you to grow some form of a backbone and actually state what you're attempting to imply with the above quote. Try to behave like a man, and say your peace.

reply to post by themillersdaughter


First of all I am part Native American from my grandmothers side. Second say we were here before the Indians and the Indians ran us off, Then after a world war the U.N. gives us only part of what was our country in the beginning would you like it? Then to be attacked by Canada, The Indians and Mexico soon after the U.N. mandate, We win that war and we get back most of our land only to be attacked again and we win that war and get all of it back. Later only the Indians that are still here are firing rockets at our schools and blowing up buses and night clubs with our innocent people in them.
Now what part of that don't you get? Its not just the bible that says it belongs to the Jews. History says it does, Not some politicized stuff from the last 60 years. I'm talking real history. Israel has given them land and tried to make peace with the Arab immigrants so many times and only got bombings and rockets in return. The Terrorist in Gaza and the west bank will never stop because they have shown over and over they do not want peace.

reply to post by poet1b


You were right about the first part however it is Israel shooting missiles at the bomb factory's then a huge secondary explosion happens. I saw it happen on the news in Gaza.

Originally posted by themillersdaughter
reply to post by BloodthirstyCapitalist

 

I guess we should only pay attention to the list of atrocities committed by Palestinians....The litany of abuses was only one small part of the things people Art and his wife Peggy...

Well, when the Palestinians committ so many of them, its rather hard to ignore.

As for Art and Peggy? Quite frankly, I don't care what they claim to have witnessed or not. The Palestinians have proven time and again that they excel at manipulating naive Westerners, so why would I ever think that his experience is genuine?

People are willing to die, Israel shouldn't whine when they are getting what they deserve.

So the students at the Yeshiva deserved to die, in your opinion? The Israeli olympians at Munich deserved to die? Come on, committ to anyone of the completely ridiculous statements that are making. Everytime you are asked for clarification as to whether the victims of Palestinian terrorists deserved to die, you evade the issue.

As far my contention that I hope someone metes out justice to our government leaders...as well as the corrupt nation of Israel...I absolutley do...that is my right, is it not?

Absolutely, beyond a doubt, and thankfully, Yes that is your right (see, that's what it looks like for someone to actually committ to an opinion, and respond to questions). Hell, thanks to the First Amendment, you have the right to express whatever opinion you may have. Thankfully, I also have that right.

In view of that fact, here's something to consider: There are strong opinions on either side of this issue. Some say the Israelis are in the "right", some say the Palestinians. Fundamentally, there is no final arbiter of what is truly "right" or moral, or what is immoral; morality is oftentimes subjective. Therefore if a conclusion is to occur in this particular issue, it will either be peace or destruction of one of the groups. Considering that your Palestinian friends are mostly thugs with rocks and aging AK47's who like to blow up city buses and murder schoolchildren, I wouldn't hedge my bet on them. When there are men like Ehud Barak, current Minister of Defense and the most highly decorated soldier in Israeli history, fighting to protect the State of Israeli all the rocks, ski masks and RPGs in the world won't be able to protect the Palestinian terrorists. They will be hunted down, and justice will be handed out.

I would personally support the Israelis if they drove a battalion of tanks through the Gaza strip, levelling it to the ground and driving the Palestinians into Egypt, but maybe I'm being a bit BloodThirsty myself.

Bloodthirsty? You? No way...!

As long as the US keeps funding them, they'll have the opportunity to work toward their ultimate goal of genocide by degree.

Without us, they'd fail. Miserably.

Maybe when we have our recession, our government will decide that billions annually for repressive regimes is not a sound investment. I know more people are becoming aware of the situation everyday and the outrage is growing, understandably.

Even though you've attempted to link my words against Israel to supporting terrorism, you haven't. If Israel would treat people humanely, there's no telling what the outcome could be. As long as they don't, they deserve what they get.

I agree LovingSoul!!

good point and this is of course nothing to laugh at...

Originally posted by The Vagabond
reply to post by pavil

 

No, I maintain that there is more to the question that just whether or not civilians are caught in the crossfire.

I agree with much of your post. However Hezbollah taking up positions among the civilians is reprehensible and doesn't get condemned often enough or loud enough.

The nuke analogy is not a very good one. I have stated previously that Israel's choice of ordinance is probably a little on the heavy side, but even when they pick appropriate weapons, the tactics employed by Hezbollah in this example (basing themselves amongst civilians), still cause many unnecessary civilian casualties.


I disagree with you that Israel or any fighting force should have to be endure more casualties due to the tactics of guerrillas that include fighting in the middle of civilian areas. Israel has given notice to civilians to leave an area where hostilities were going to occur and did so in the latest Lebanese campaign.

There comes a point where there is only so much you can do. What would you do for example if the civilian population intentionally protected a fighting force by spreading out amongst an army battalion for example? Do you not attack the military target for fear of hurting civilians?

This could easily be avoided if Hezbollah were brave enough to fight like a real military force instead of hiding behind skirts, children and the elderly.

Blame the real cause, Hezbollah's tactics of blending into civilian areas.

Lets hear people condemn that tactic in the first place, then you can condemn Israel for it's actions. Hezbollah seems to get a free ride by many of the posters here.

[edit on 11-3-2008 by pavil]

Originally posted by themillersdaughter

If Israel would treat people humanely, there's no telling what the outcome could be. As long as they don't, they deserve what they get.

So what's good for the goose should be good for the gander right? By that same token do the Palestinians since the don't treat people humanly either, deserve what they get. Right?

What should the Palestinians and HAMAS deserve to get for the attack on the Jewish Religious School?

I can't wait for your answer on this one.



[edit on 11-3-2008 by pavil]

If someone attacks you and you do nothing to defend yourself, you die. There is nothing inhumane about Israel defending itself against Muslim aggression, and that is exactly what Israel is doing.

The Palestinians lost all credibility long ago with their, "we will push them into the sea" national goal.