Jesus is Not God!

I believe what Jesus tells us, I believe what I read in the Bible, and I believe that if the Bible seems to contradict itself, that it must be an error in interpretation and not in the scripture itself. So when I see all the confusion among churches and God’s children about our Lord and Savior, I find it necessary to try to clear up this confusion as much as possible.

I know that the devil is dieing with us on earth, and he is (as stated by Jesus in John 8:44) the father of lies, and if he created the lie, one must presume that he does it well. I also know why Satan would want us to believe that Jesus is God. There are several very good reasons, but here is one very good reason. Satan does not want us to believe that we can live without sin, he doesn’t want us to believe that on earth with our earthly bodies we can be perfect in the eyes of God.

Jesus tells us that we can in fact be perfect (Matthew 5:48 Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect) (Colossians 4:12 Epaphras, who is one of you, a bondservant of Christ, greets you, always laboring fervently for you in prayers, that you may stand perfect and complete in all the will of God.), and he tells us how to be perfect (Matthew 19:21 Jesus said to him, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.” Jesus as the Son of God is the proof that a HUMAN can live with out sin.

If the devil deceives us into believing that Jesus is God he can continue to prove to us that we can’t live with out sin, and that it is ok to go on sinning. I know a lot of people that truly believe that Jesus is God, and all of them believe that we can’t be perfect, so that is enough proof to me right there that I am on the right track.

Another great reason that Satan would cause this confusion is so that churches would be separated. God wants us to come together and agree with one another (Philippians 2:1,2 Therefore if there is any consolation in Christ, if any comfort of love, if any fellowship of the Spirit, if any affection and mercy, fulfill my joy by being likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind.)

The more Christians that come together, the more powerful we become, and by causing us to argue and to disagree with each other, he puts a limit to how powerful we can become. This is also happening all over the place, hence all the different denominations of Christianity. It is all of the devils lies that cause us to stay separate in our search for knowledge.

Once again I would like to point out that if there is any contradiction in the Bible, the contradiction is in the interpretation not the scripture. The Bible clearly states that God cannot be tempted (James 1:13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God” for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone.) by evil. Now if Jesus is God this would cause Mark 1:13 to contradict James 1:13 for Jesus was brought up on the mountain and tempted (Mark 1:13 And He was there in the wilderness forty days, tempted by Satan, and was with the wild beasts; and the angels ministered to Him.) by the devil. As a side note, I would like to point out that I don’t believe in coincidence because everything happens for a reason, so I don’t think that it is just by chance that the would be contradiction between James 1:13 and Mark 1:13 helps to prove that Jesus is the Son of God and not God himself.

All one????? Jesus was not a man but God manifested in the flesh. However while he was manifested in the Flesh he was also in heaven because he does talk to Jesus several times. You also have to realize that Jesus doesn’t know what God knows at first and he doesn’t have God’s powers until they are given to him, but this still doesn’t make them separate. So you will have to either ignore that or just come up with something that makes sense to you. Now even though Jesus was born and has a birth date, you have to realize that he always was. Then you have to some how figure out how God took on the sins of the world and states that he feels separation from God and dies on the cross and is resurrected by God while he is dead. Wow that is really confusing, is it not? But wait, God is not the author of confusion (I Corinthians for God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of saints.)

Now lets focus on God and the Son of God. Jesus existed sense the beginning, not in flesh but in the mind or thought of God. He was born as a human in the flesh and like all of us was born in the image of God. He, like all of us, has a connection to God, for with out Gods Spirit (or breathe) none of us (including the devil) could live. For it is God’s breathe (or Spirit) that keeps us alive (Genesis 2:7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.) Jesus’ very life proves that a man, with God, can be perfect. Because of the fact that Jesus lived with out sin he had a connection with God that it is hard for us (sinners) to comprehend, hence the confusion with this subject. Jesus however did feel the same separation from God that we (sinners) feel every day when he was on the cross and excepted our sins on himself (Matthew 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, “Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?” That is “My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?”) If we, with God’s help stopped sinning, we too would have the same connection to God that Jesus did. Now, Jesus sits at the right hand of God and has been given all authority over heaven and earth. He did not become God, nor is he as powerful as God, for Jesus said himself in John 14:28 “My Father is greater than I.”

Edit: Fixed all caps title

[edit on 3/7/08 by FredT]

mod edit: to remove !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! from title

[edit on 3/22/2008 by kinglizard]

reply to post by sparda4355



I don't believe in the Trinity,the 3 gods in 1.

But was Jesus just a human?

Mary was impregnated by the Holy Ghost as is stated in Matthew 1:20.
Now in several religions and many myths,such a person would be a demigod;part mortal part divine,they have some godlike powers.


The rest of us humans were only born in the likeness of God.

Neither are You!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Real classy

reply to post by sparda4355


Hi sparda/

Your quote...

I don't believe in the Trinity,the 3 gods in 1.

The Trinity is a Three ...

''Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit''(Matthew 28:19)
These Three are not GODS!
The Father who is/was always.
The Son of God...when questioned who He is, He quotes..I AM' which is in the Old Testament ''I AM THAT I AM (Exos. 3.13. - 14).
The Holy Spirit that was always present.
All these three are not three individual entities, but all are in God.
The Son...''Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God. Amen.''(Romans 9:5)
and another.......''Christ Jesus, who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,
but emptied Himself,
taking the form of a bond-servant,
and being made in the likeness of men.''(Philippians 2:5-7)
One very important ...In the beginning was the Word(Logos),
and the Word was with God,
and the Word was God.''(John 1:1)
''And the Word became flesh,
and dwelt among us,
and we beheld His glory,
glory as the only begotten from the Father,
full of grace and truth.''(John 1:14)

The WORD became Flesh!
The Word was always present from the Beginning!
The Word on itself is NOT a Demi God!
The Word on it's own cannot exist without the Father.

''God was manifest in the flesh,
justified in the Spirit,
seen of angels,
preached unto Gentiles,
believed on in the world,
received up into glory.''(1 Timothy 3:16)

It is not the Bible that 'contradicts' itself, but Man and his own understanding of the Word of God,that contradicts himself!
Man has no understanding of the Knowledge of God and therefore manipulates Scripture to fit his own so called 'knowledge' of truth, of which there is no truth...of which but Pride has won over truth.

But was Jesus just a human?

No,Jesus Christ is God.
He became a Servant of Man...God took flesh and became Man .
Being God the creator,He lowered(humbled) Himself for mankind to be restored to its 'first' nature(as was intended) being One with God...OUR own fallen nature, would/could not allow us to be re united with God as it was before the fall.
Why?
Because man was created and not the creator!
Why was not Satan allowed back into heaven?
It was not GOD who did not allow him, BUT Satans OWN wickedness and evil that could not behold Heaven...Pure goodness cannot contain evil.
Satan condemned himself to his destiny,he chose the path that he is on and therefore wishes all to fall with him...But Scripture clearly says that man has a choice as to who he wants as his God.
There is the short and wide....
Or the Long and narrow path...

Mary was impregnated by the Holy Ghost as is stated in Matthew 1:20.
Now in several religions and many myths,such a person would be a demigod;part mortal part divine,they have some godlike powers.

The Theotokos(God Bearer-Mother of God) was found worthy to such a miracle...as it was written in the Old Testament and spoken of by Prophets!
''"I shall put enmity between thee and the Woman, and between thy seed and Her Seed" (Genesis 3:15)
We are not Gods in the sense of the Word 'GOD' but we are called to be Godlike in humility.God humbly became man so that we too can be united in His likeness and Image.
quote///
The Angel, having appeared, told Her(Mother of God)
, "Rejoice, O Blessed One! (literally, "filled with grace")
The Lord is with Thee!
Blessed art Thou amongst women."
Mary was puzzled by the words of the Angel and unsure what this greeting was supposed to mean.
The Angel continued by saying to Her: "Fear not, Mary, for Thou hast found favor with God.
And therefore, Thou wilt bear a Son and shalt name Him Jesus.
He shall be great and shall be known as the Son of the Most-high, and to His Kingdom there shall be no end."
Still puzzled, Mary asked the Angel: "How can that be, since I know not a man?"
The Angel replied that this would be accomplished by the power of the omnipotent God: "The Holy Spirit shall come upon Thee,
and the power of the Most-high shall overshadow Thee; therefore, accordingly, that Holy One which shall be born of Thee shall be called the Son of God.
Your relative, Elizabeth, not having had any offspring till her very old age, shall soon give birth to a son; for with God nothing shall be impossible." Then Mary humbly answered, "Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word" (Luke 1:26-38)
Defender of Christians~the Blessed Theotokos

The rest of us humans were only born in the likeness of God.

You are correct!
Man was created perfect.
Man was perfect in the sense he had all there was for him to live a perfect life before the fall...The breaking of Gods ONE commandment resulted in mans fallen nature....SIN came through Man 'spiritual bodily death' resulted and ''Physical, bodily death is the separation of the spirit from the body, but spiritual death is the separation of the spirit from God, which is caused by sin.
Christ abolished original sin, cleansed the fallen Adam (Eph, 1:7). With His divine blood He raises man into a new creation (1 Cur. 15.13-26).

Christs resurrection ''If Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile and you are still in your sins (1 Cor. 15:14, 17).
Therefore man has the opportunity to be once again re united with God as was before the fall.

many references to my answers~found here

IX
helen

[edit on 3/7/2008 by helen670]

reply to post by helen670


Here are some contradictions to your verses...

God is not a man nor a Son of Man
NASB Numbers 23:19
God is not a man, that He should lie, Nor a son of man, that He should repent.
Compared with…
Jesus is a man and the Son of Man
NIV Acts 2:22
"Men of Israel, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know.
NIV Luke 22:69
But from now on, the Son of Man (Jesus) will be seated at the right hand of the mighty God."
Contradiction #2
God cannot be Tempted
NIV James 1:13
When tempted, no one should say, "God is tempting me." For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone.
Compared with…
Jesus was tempted in every way
NIV Hebrews 4:15
For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are-- yet was without sin.
Jesus suffered when he was tempted…
NIV Hebrews 2:18
Because he himself suffered when he was tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted.
Contradiction #3
God is Spirit
NIV John 4:24
God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth."
Compared with…
Jesus is not a Spirit, but flesh and blood
NASB Luke 24:39
"See My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself; touch Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have."
Contradiction #4
God does not change
NIV James 1:17
Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows.
Compared with…
Jesus does change
NIV Luke 2:52
And Jesus grew in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and men.
Contradiction #5
God cannot die
NIV 1 Timothy 1:17
Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen. (Ref. Jeremiah 10:10 “Yahweh” is the eternal King, not Jesus)
Compared with…
Jesus Christ died for our sins
NRSV Numbers 23:19
God is not a human being, that he should lie, or a mortal, that he should change his mind.
NIV 1 Corinthians 15:3
For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures.
Contradiction #6
God knows everything there is to know
NIV Isaiah 46:10
I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say: My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please.
Compared with…
Jesus did not know everything there is to know
NIV Mark 13:32
No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.
NIV Luke 2:52
And Jesus grew in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and men.
Contradiction #7
God does not grow weary
NASB Isaiah 40:28
Do you not know? Have you not heard? The Everlasting God, the LORD, the Creator of the ends of the earth Does not become weary or tired. His understanding is inscrutable.
Compared with…
Jesus grew weary
NASB John 4:6
So Jesus, being wearied from His journey, was sitting thus by the well. It was about the sixth hour.
Conclusion:
If Jesus is God, the Bible is full of contradictions. If the Bible has contradictions, it is not inspired by God and therefore must be “just another religious book.” Due to the information presented, we have two options:
Jesus is God; the Bible is full of contradictions and it loses all credibility.
Or…
Jesus is not God, but the Son of God; He is a human being with freedom of choice, and he chose to walk out the prophecies spoken about his life. He chose to trust and obey God and never sin. He was able to do the things he did because God was with him (Acts 10:38). He died for our sins as our one-time sacrifice. God made Jesus’ sacrifice the acceptable payment for all of mankind’s sin. God then promoted Jesus to His right hand and made him King of Kings and Lord of Lords.

reply to post by helen670


also...

I believe, I understand, and I know; three totally different concepts that can easily be confused. I believe planes can fly because I have read about planes flying and have been told by credible sources that they do so. I understand the basics of why a plane leaves the ground and how the pressure under the wing becomes greater then the pressure above the wing. I knew that I believed a plane could fly and I knew I understood the basics aerodynamics that are applied to how a plane flies, but until I saw a plane fly with my own eyes, I did not know that a plane could fly. Confusing? I hope so!!! With God the same concept applies, but because I cannot see God or carry on a conversation with God I have to rely on something else to take my belief and understanding to a new level. For example, I believe God created the earth because I have read many books that give God credit for doing so; I also have heard that God created the earth from several credible sources. I understand that God created the earth because I have read and understand the biblical versus that describe him doing so. But how do I know God created the earth, nobody was around to witness it. Moses; who wrote the first five books of the Bible didn’t do so until 4-5 hundred years later, and nobody has really proven that the Bible is 100% accurate? How do I know the Bible is accurate, how do I know that God created the earth? God has a way of helping me feel out the truth. The only way I can describe the way he helps me is that it just settles easy in my heart. People can try to deceive me during conversation, but when I am reading the Bible with just God and myself the truth is revealed to me every time. I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and that the authority that He has was given to Him by God, and that the actions that he took were because of God, and that the things He preached were from God, and that He laid down His life for our sins, not so that we have a free pass to Heaven, but so that through Him and His teachings we have a chance to be saved. I understand this because of not just one or two biblical verses, but hundreds and hundreds of verses and teachings from the Bible. Here is where it gets confusing though, through words or a couple verses here and there I can also understand the teachings of the Holy Trinity. Well if I can understand either teaching from the same Bible what do I do? I will tell you what I do, and have done. I pray for understanding and every time I pick up the Bible it clearly teaches me the same message over and over. So I know that Jesus Christ is the Son of God because God imprints it clearly in my heart when I ask for his guidance. Now you know why I believe what I believe, but now let me show you what I believe.

-Is Jesus God? NO
(John 1:18) Nobody has seen God, how many people saw Jesus???
(Numbers 23:19) This is pretty clear, it actually says God is not a man or the Son of Man!
(Acts 2:22) States Jesus is a man accredited by God to do miracles and signs etc…
(Luke 22:69) States that Jesus is the Son of Man
(James 1:13) clearly states that God cannot be tempted
(Hebrews 4:15) clearly states that Jesus was tempted in EVERY WAY
(Hebrews 2:18) even states that Jesus suffered when He was tempted (truly tempted)
(James 1:17) states that God does not change
(Luke 2:52) states Jesus grew in wisdom and favor in Gods eyes, so He did change and this also proves that Jesus did not always know everything, He learned
(John 14:28) tells everybody that My Father (God) is greater than I (Jesus)
(Isaiah 46:10) God knows everything
(Mark 13:32, Luke 2:52) Jesus does NOT know everything
(I Corinthians 15:28) Jesus IS subject to God!!!
(Ephesians 1:17, Romans 15:6, II Corinthians 1:3, Ephesians 1:3, I peter 1:3) How can Jesus be God and God be Jesus’ God???
(John 20:17, Revelations 3:12) says God is His God and what’s interesting about rev. 3:12 is that Jesus is already sitting at the right hand of God and still refers to Him as His God
(John 14:1) Jesus shows that there are two separate entities by saying trust in God, trust ALSO in Me


-Is Jesus our Lord and Savior? YES
(I Corinthians 8:6) One God and One Lord

-Is God the Lord? NO
(I Corinthians 8:6) Jesus is the Lord and there isn’t two Lords!

-God and Lord are they the same thing? NO
(I Corinthians 8:6) One God and One Lord two separate purposes

-Does Jesus proclaim that God is greater than Him? YES
(John 14:28) for My Father is Greater than I

-Did Jesus ever feel separation from God? YES
(Matthew 27:46) Very powerful words coming from the Son of God

-Is God connected to Jesus spiritually? YES
(John 10:30) This is how spiritual connection is described; it is later described with us included.

-Is God’s spirit in us? Yes
(Rom 8:9)

-Is God ever referred to as the Lord? YES (based on translation)


-Does Jesus have God in Him? YES
(John 17:21) but like Jesus is in God He wants us to be in them and them in us

-Does Jesus talk to God? YES all the time!!!
(Matthew 6:46, Matthew 14:23, Matthew 26:36, etc…) why does Jesus pray to God???

-Did Jesus always have authority? NO
(Matthew 28:18) the authority he has is given to Him

-How did Jesus get his authority? God gave it to Him
(Matthew 28:18, Romans 13:1) It was given to Him by God

-Did Jesus completely die on the cross? YES
(I Corinthians 15:3) not that any would argue this, but this verse clearly states Jesus died

-Can God die? NO
(I Timothy 1:17) God is immortal

-Was Jesus tempted? YES
(Hebrews 2:18) It is because Jesus was tempted, but did not fail or lead into the temptation that he is able to rescue us from our temptations (if he could not have sinned then what kind of example is He?) (If I don’t know what it is like to have tasted red wine can I tell you what it tastes like?)

-Can God be tempted? NO
(James 1:13) This is my point if God is not tempted by evil and Jesus is God then He was not truly tempted! It is like me waving poop in your face when you are hungry, you might be hungry and I might be trying to tempt you, but no matter what, you won’t be eating the poop, so you’re not really tempted.

reply to post by sparda4355


continued...

-Did Jesus sin? NO
(Romans 8:3, I John 3:8) it is because Jesus in the flesh did not sin that he condemned sin, and just to clarify, would you say Jesus is of the devil? Didn’t think so.

-Can we stop sinning? YES
(Matthew 5:48, Matthew 19:26, II Corinthians 13:11) Jesus says to stop sinning, then he says that by ourselves it is impossible, but with God anything is possible, then after Jesus dies they tell you to be perfect.

-Does this mean if we sin we can’t go to heaven? NO
(Matthew 6:12, Matthew 6:14, Matthew 18:21,22,)
If you ask for forgiveness, you will be forgiven, but you too must forgive those who sin against you and ask for forgiveness.

-If you don’t forgive, will you go to Heaven? NO
(Matthew 6:15) If you don’t forgive, you won’t be forgiven, and if you are not forgiven, you do not fall under grace?

Exercise: Give somebody an object. It now passed from person to person, have Father give it to his son. It now passed from father to child. Now have Father give it to himself. Hmm…..



Here is a clear description of the giving from the Father to the Son. It starts out with Jesus looking up to talk to His Father in Heaven, He talks about how God gave authority to Jesus over all flesh so that… then states that His Father is the only true God and the He (Jesus) was sent by God, Jesus finished the work that God gave Him to do,

Joh 17:1 Jesus spoke these words and lifted up His eyes to Heaven and said, Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son so that Your Son also may glorify You,
Joh 17:2 even as You have given Him authority over all flesh so that He should give eternal life to all You have given Him.
Joh 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
Joh 17:4 I have glorified You upon the earth. I have finished the work which You have given Me to do.
Joh 17:5 And now Father, glorify Me with Yourself with the glory which I had with You before the world was.
Joh 17:6 I have revealed Your name to the men whom You gave to Me out of the world. They were Yours, and You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word.
Joh 17:7 Now they have known that all things, whatever You have given Me, are from You.
Joh 17:8 For I have given to them the Words which You gave Me, and they have received them and have known surely that I came out from You. And they have believed that You sent Me.
Joh 17:9 I pray for them. I do not pray for the world, but for those whom You have given Me, for they are Yours.
Joh 17:10 And all Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine; and I am glorified in them.



Jesus states here that He only does what He sees His Father do, His Father loves Him so shows Him what He does, the Father brings people back to life so Jesus does too, now this is where it gets tricky, the Father doesn’t Judge, but the Son does, because God gave that job to Jesus. So apparently they have different jobs! Honor the Son like you Honor the Father, if you don’t honor His Son you are not Honoring Him

Joh 5:19 Then Jesus answered and said to them, Truly, truly, I say to you, The Son can do nothing of Himself but what He sees the Father do. For whatever things He does, these also the Son does likewise.
Joh 5:20 For the Father loves the Son and shows Him all the things that He Himself does. And He will show Him greater works than these, so that you may marvel.
Joh 5:21 For as the Father raises the dead and makes alive, even so the Son of Man makes alive whomever He wills.
Joh 5:22 For the Father judges no man, but has committed all judgment to the Son,
Joh 5:23 so that all should honor the Son, even as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him






It is at least clear at this point that Jesus and God are not one and the same… So therefore Jesus cannot be God or there would be two Gods and there cannot be two Gods, for the Bible clearly states there is only ONE God!!! Why is it so common to believe that Jesus is God??? There was a controversy over this subject a long time ago, before all our modern translations today.


In conclusion...
There are verses in the Bible that appear to be calling Jesus God, I do not deny that and I have seen all of them and have done research on most of them. So far all of the verses that make it appear as though Jesus is God can also be interpreted in other ways. It is apparent that the pagan belief system that was prominent around the time the Bible was being translated to English affected certain words to be translated in certain ways. The only other explanation that I could come up with is that the Bible contradicts itself, and I won’t accept that! My point is that only a couple verses here and there would lead me to believe Jesus is God and on the contrary I have seen hundreds and hundreds of verses that CLEARY state that Jesus is not God, but the Son of God, with authorities given to Him by God. So God is our God and the God of Jesus, and Jesus is our Lord and Savior.



Here are a few people/groups that agree with me…
Letter from Thomas Jefferson
"No historical fact is better established, than that the doctrine of one God, pure and uncompounded, was that of the early ages of Christianity . . . Nor was the unity of the Supreme Being ousted from the Christian creed by the force of reason, but by the sword of civil government, wielded at the will of the Athanasius. The hocus-pocus phantasm of a God like another Cerberus, with one body and three heads, had its birth and growth in the blood of thousands of martyrs . . . The Athanasian paradox that one is three, and three but one, is so incomprehensible to the human mind, that no candid man can say he has any idea of it, and how can he believe what presents no idea? He who thinks he does, only deceives himself. He proves, also, that man, once surrendering his reason, has no remaining guard against absurdities the most monstrous, and like a ship without rudder, is the sport of every wind. With such person, gullibility which they call faith, takes the helm from the hand of reason, and the mind becomes a wreck." -- Thomas Jefferson: Letter to James Smith, Dec. 8, 1822

reply to post by sparda4355


continued 2...

Words from the Illustrated Bible
"The word Trinity is not found in the Bible . . . It did not find a place formally in the theology of the church till the 4th century." -- The Illustrated Bible Dictionary


Arthur Weigall
Historian Arthur Weigall: "Jesus Christ never mentioned such a phenomenon, and nowhere in the New Testament does the word 'Trinity' appear. The idea was only adopted by the Church three hundred years after the death of our Lord." -- The Paganism in Our Christianity

The Catholic Encyclopedia
The New Catholic Encyclopedia states: "The formulation 'one God in three Persons' was not solidly established, certainly not fully assimilated into Christian life and its profession of faith, prior to the end of the 4th century. But it is precisely this formulation that has first claim to the title the Trinitarian dogma. Among the Apostolic Fathers, there had been nothing even remotely approaching such a mentality or perspective." - (1967), Vol. XIV, p. 299.

Dictionary of the Bible by John L. McKenzie
"The belief as so defined was reached only in the 4th and 5th centuries AD and hence is not explicitly and formally a biblical belief. The trinity of persons within the unity of nature is defined in terms of "person" and "nature: which are Gk philosophical terms; actually the terms do not appear in the Bible. The Trinitarian definitions arose as the result of long controversies in which these terms and others such as "essence" and "substance" were erroneously applied to God by some theologians." Dictionary of the Bible by John L. McKenzie, S.J. p. 899

An interesting point by Robert A. Heinlein
"Anyone who can worship a trinity and insist that his religion is a monotheism can believe anything." -- Robert A. Heinlein

Historian Will Durant
Historian Will Durant: "Christianity did not destroy paganism; it adopted it. . . . From Egypt came the ideas of a divine trinity." And in the book Egyptian Religion, Siegfried Morenz notes: "The trinity was a major preoccupation of Egyptian theologians . . . Three gods are combined and treated as a single being, addressed in the singular. In this way the spiritual force of Egyptian religion shows a direct link with Christian theology."


How the Trinity “concept” came about…
A BRIEF HISTORY OF THE CHURCH AFTER NICAEA
325 AD - Constantine convenes the Council of Nicaea in order to develop a statement of faith that can unify the church. The Nicene Creed is written, declaring that "the Father and the Son are of the same substance" (homoousios). Emperor Constantine who was also the high priest of the pagan religion of the Unconquered Sun presided over this council.
According to the Encyclopedia Britannica:
"Constantine himself presided, actively guiding the discussions and personally proposed the crucial formula expressing the relationship of Christ to God in the creed issued by the council, `of one substance with the Father'."
The American Academic Encyclopedia states:
"Although this was not Constantine's first attempt to reconcile factions in Christianity, it was the first time he had used the imperial office to IMPOSE a settlement."
At the end of this council, Constantine sided with Athanasius over Arius and exiled Arius to Illyria.
328 AD - Athanasius becomes bishop of Alexandria.
328 AD - Constantine recalls Arius from Illyria.
335 AD - Constantine now sides with Arius and exiles Athanasius to Trier.
337 AD - A new emperor, Contantius, orders the return of Athanasius to Alexandria.
339 AD - Athanasius flees Alexandria in anticipation of being expelled.
341 AD - Two councils are held in Antioch this year. During this council, the First, Second, and Third Arian Confessions are written, thereby beginning the attempt to produce a formal doctrine of faith to oppose the Nicene Creed.
343 AD - At the Council of Sardica, Eastern Bishops demand the removal of Athanasius.
346 AD - Athanasius is restored to Alexandria.
351 AD - A second anti - Nicene council is held in Sirmium.
353 AD - A council is held at Aries during Autumn that is directed against Athanasius.
355 AD - A council is held in Milan. Athanasius is again condemned.
356 AD - Athanasius is deposed on February 8th, beginning his third exile.
357 AD - Third Council of Sirmium is convened. Both homoousios and homoiousios are avoided as unbiblical, and it is agreed that the Father is greater than His subordinate Son.
359 AD - The Synod of Seleucia is held which affirms that Christ is "like the Father," It does not however, specify how the Son is like the Father.
361 AD - A council is held in Antioch to affirm Arius' positions.
380 AD - Emperor Theodosius the Great declares Christianity the official state religion of the empire.
381 AD - The First Council of Constantinople is held to review the controversy since Nicaea. Emperor Theodosius the Great establishes the creed of Nicaea as the standard for his realm. The Nicene Creed is re-evaluated and accepted with the addition of clauses on the Holy Spirit and other matters.
If Nicaea just formalized the prevalent teaching of the church: then why all the conflicts? If it were the established teaching of the church, then you would expect people to either accept it, or not be Christians. It was not the established teaching, and when some faction of the church tried to make it official, the result was major conflict.
It was a theological power grab by a faction of the church. A major complication throughout all this was that the emperors were involved and directed the outcome. At Nicaea it was Constantine that decided the outcome. Then we have the flip-flopping of opinion with the result that Athanasius is exiled and recalled depending on who is in power. In 357 AD the declaration that homoousios and homoiousios are unbiblical, and that the Father is greater than His subordinate Son. This is 180 degrees from Nicaea.
In 380 AD Emperor Thedosius declares Christianity the state religion. One can come to the conclusion that whichever way Theodosius favors, that is the way in which it is going to end. This is exactly what happened next.

reply to post by sparda4355


continued 3...

In 381 AD the struggle was finally ended by the current emperor, Theodosius the Great, who favored the Nicene position. Just like at Nicaea, the EMPEROR again decided it. The emperors were dictating the theology of the church.
The big difference now was that there was not going to be any more changing sides. It was now the state religion. You cannot make Christianity the state religion and then change its beliefs every few years. It would undermine its credibility as the true faith. The Trinity was now the orthodox position, and the state was willing to back it up with force.

reply to post by sparda4355


I have done research... and research... and research...

I have argued and argued...

Quite honestly... I pretty much know for a fact that you will not agree with me... So one might ask... why create the thread?

Becuase I believe this to be the truth... I believe that if you truly read these replies... everybody who enters this thread... One day, this will hit you, your eyes will open up to this, and it might make a big impact on your life!

I am NOT saying if you don't believe what I believe you will go to hell... I am not saying you won't get into heaven... I am just saying... this will have a big impact on your life and new meaning to the word!!!

Click here for more information.

Originally posted by jakyll
reply to post by sparda4355

 

I don't believe in the Trinity,the 3 gods in 1.

But was Jesus just a human?

Mary was impregnated by the Holy Ghost as is stated in Matthew 1:20.
Now in several religions and many myths,such a person would be a demigod;part mortal part divine,they have some godlike powers.


The rest of us humans were only born in the likeness of God.

He was flesh... He was mortal... Yes he was human...

If he was "half" God as the pagons would believe... He would NOT be able to DIE on the cross...

He was PURE... and he was GOD'S Son as he always claimed to be, His was living the life of His Father (as His Father would ask him to), when you looked into Jesus' eyes... You were looking into the eyes of His father...

If you saw Jesus, you saw His Father, becuase we were ALL created in God's image, the only problem is... WE ALL SIN! Jesus did not...

JESUS NEVER DID ANYTHING THAT HE DID NOT ENCOURAGE US TO DO... AND SHOW US HOW TO DO IT!

INCLUDING: Walking on water, healing, living a life without sin! He even told us we could cast a MOUNTAIN into a lake with the faith of a mustard seed... He meant this literally! (I believe)...

NO don't ask me if I am perfect... for I am NOT... I am a student of Christ, not a master of his ways! But it sure is something to strive for!

Matthew: “Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?” that is, “My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?” (27:46)

Originally posted by helen670

It is not the Bible that 'contradicts' itself, but Man and his own understanding of the Word of God,that contradicts himself!

[edit on 3/7/2008 by helen670]

Care to take a wager on this?

No offense... I AM a christian... but I think you might want to take a look at Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John before you state that the bible doesn't contradict itself...

Just to name a few...

What were His last words while on the cross???

Good question... depends who you ask!

Matthew: “Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?” that is, “My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?” (27:46)

Mark: “Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?” meaning, “My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?” (15:34)

Luke: “Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit.” (23:46)

John: “It is finished.” (19:30)

Who carried the cross?

Again... Depends on who you ask

Matthew: Simon of Cyrene (27:32)

Mark: Simon of Cyrene (15:21)

LUke: Simon of Cyrene (23:26)

John: Only Jesus himself carried the cross. (19:17)

Did Jesus drink while on the cross?

Matthew: Yes

Mark: No

Luke: Not mentioned

John: Yes

Okay... now I am not trying to disprove the Bible... There are flaws, it is a watered down version from the origional... It is the message we get from the spirit that guides us that is important, not the book itself...

I hate it, but just like the bible itself, your posts are sooooo long I get bored and cannot concentrate to read all of it/them. I came to this thread to simply comment that I have several friends who practice/live Hindu, and I found it funny that when explaining to me the way it works for them, how they choose a god and what gods there are, they chose to call Jesus our God. I could in no way exlpain to them why he is not, they just don't get it.

The Trinity is a Three ...

Yes,but the word trinity has 2 meanings....
To some Christians it is 3 parts of one whole,to others it is 3 seperate,independent beings that make up the Godhead.


If Jesus is born of God as well as Mary then he is correct in saying that he is of God,it does not mean he is God!

Jesus took on the qualities of both parents.The divine which allowed him to perform miracles,take on the sins of the world etc,and the mortal,which is weak enough to suffer temptation etc.


Through faith we can have the "divine powers" that Jesus has.For example....

Peter walks on water just like Jesus.
Matthew 14:22-31.

22 And straightway Jesus constrained his disciples to get into a ship, and to go before him unto the other side, while he sent the multitudes away.23 And when he had sent the multitudes away, he went up into a mountain apart to pray: and when the evening was come, he was there alone.24 But the ship was now in the midst of the sea, tossed with waves: for the wind was contrary.25 And in the fourth watch of the night Jesus went unto them, walking on the sea.26 And when the disciples saw him walking on the sea, they were troubled, saying, It is a spirit; and they cried out for fear.27 But straightway Jesus spake unto them, saying, Be of good cheer; it is I; be not afraid.28 And Peter answered him and said, Lord, if it be thou, bid me come unto thee on the water.29 And he said, Come. And when Peter was come down out of the ship, he walked on the water, to go to Jesus. 30 But when he saw the wind boisterous, he was afraid; and beginning to sink, he cried, saying, Lord, save me.31 And immediately Jesus stretched forth his hand, and caught him, and said unto him, O thou of little faith, wherefore didst thou doubt?

Miracle workers.
Mark 3:14-15.

14 And he ordained twelve,that they should be with him,and that he might send them forth to preach,15 And to have power to heal sicknesses, and to cast out devils:

Hi Sparda/

So, you like lengthy easy to understand posts?
Well, here are a few of Jesus is GOD!
Although......
You have asked questions and have already had an answer beforehand,...I will be honest here,it really does not matter as to what answer I, nor anyone else have to give you, but since you asked, I will reply.....

The references that you make have already been dealt with thousand of years ago, by Fathers of the Church....theologians!
They have not changed and are still available to be read by whoever wishes to come to the knowledge of the Truth!
The New Testament was written in Greek,therefore refer to the original Greek translation of the exact word used....no contradictions!
Since the New Testament was written in Koino Greek, it is only fair to translate the same english word for it's context!
I have seen enough of the 'so called' properly translated copies and it's a real Joke!
Actually it's plain
There are so many that have complete TEXTS missing!
You seem to have chosen the NIV for your reference to which you seek answers for, falsely put there and definitely not the EXACT word or a not completed sentence or some strange new word appears to be added.
Unless you correct them, I cannot reply to the NIV texts as a reference to your questions and the answers you provided, based on those texts!


Your original post heading.....Jesus is Not God!(way too many exclamation marks)
From what I have provided based on Scripture, it only proves that Jesus is God.....Present in the Father, Son and Holy Spirit!

The Old Testament that Orthodoxy refers to is the Septuagint(as I'm sure you are aware)It is the Old Testament written by seventy (or seventy-two) Jewish scholars translated the Pentateuch (Torah) from Hebrew into Greek as that was the main spoken Language...
Septuagint texts and much more

Jesus Christs took on Human nature...In the words of the Apostle Paul, "(Christ) being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God, but made Himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant" (Philippians 2:6-7)
And yet again in the Old Testament .....''This voluntary self-abasement of the Messiah is thus described by the prophet Isaiah:
"He hath no form nor comeliness,
and when we shall see Him,
there is no beauty that we should desire Him.
He is despised and rejected of men,
a Man of sorrows and acquainted with grief … and we esteemed Him not. Surely He hath borne our griefs and carried our sorrows; yet we esteemed Him stricken,
smitten of God,
and afflicted.
But He was wounded for our transgressions; He was bruised for our iniquities.
The chastisement of our peace was upon Him,
and with His stripes we are healed.
All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned everyone to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on Him the iniquity of us all.
He was oppressed,
and He was afflicted,
yet He opened not His mouth … He was taken from prison and from judgment; and who shall declare His generation?" (Isaiah 53:2-8)
Jesus Christ can only be that God!
On the Divinity of Jesus Christ!

The human who would restore Eden would be anointed,
the biblical symbol for the gift of Wisdom,
since the perfumed anointing oil was drawn from the tree of life,
and thus his mind would be transformed.
He would see with anointed eyes and hear with anointed ears,
and as a result, his judgements would be different.
They would be wise.
Then, and only then,
would Paradise be restored (Isaiah 11).

read also.Paradise Lost~



'I AM' is another name For God!
Like I previously stated in my reply to you...

"And God said to Moses, 'I AM THAT I AM.' And He said, 'Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, 'I AM has sent me to you.'" (Exodus 3:14).
The EXACT words that Christ used ''I AM'' .......when the Jews asked Him "who art Thou?",
Jesus replied "Even the same that I said unto you from the beginning" (John 8:25).
Shortly after this He added: "Verily, verily I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM" (John 8:58).
Here it must be noted that Jesus had not said "I was," as would have been grammatically correct in the context,
but rather used the present tense "I am," or more exactly, "I am He who is." The deep meaning of these words becomes clear when one considers the Hebrew original meaning.
When Moses asked God's name at the burning bush, the Lord answered: "I am He who is" (YHWH). The very name "He who is" (YHWH)
The rest can be found in the link I gave above, which further validates that Christ is indeed God!

"It is also written in your law that the testimony of two men is true.
I am One who bears witness of Myself,
and the Father who sent Me bears witness of Me." (John 8:17-18)


"But when the Helper comes, whom I shall send to you from the Father...He will testify of Me." (John 15:26)

"And we are His witnesses to these things, and so also is the Holy Spirit whom God has given to those who obey Him." (Acts 5:32)


"God is not a man, that He should lie Nor a son of man, that He should repent. Has He said, and will He not do? Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good?" (Numbers 23:19).

"I will not execute the fierceness of My anger; I will not again destroy Ephraim. For I am God, and not man, the Holy One in your midst; and I will not come with terror." (Hosea 11:9).

thriceholy.net...



eg/In Genesis is not Adam and Eve called 'ONE FLESH'?
but, are they not TWO seperate people?


"Then the LORD God said, 'Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil..." (Genesis 3:22).
Is God talking to Himself?
Like one of US?
It is not Angels, for Angels are neither male nor female...nor do they look like the 'Image' or Likeness' of God.

"In the beginning was the Word,

and the Word was with God,

and the Word was God.

The same was in the beginning with God.

All things were made by Him,

and without Him was not anything made that was made…

And the Word was made flesh,

and dwelt amongst us;

and we beheld His glory,

the glory as of the only Begotten of the Father,

full of grace and truth…

No man hath seen God at any time;

the only begotten Son,

who is in the bosom of the Father,

He hath declared Him"

(John 1:1-18).

The name Word bestowed upon the Son of God reveals better than any other name the mystery of the inner relationship between the First and Second Persons of the Holy Trinity, God the Father and God the Son.

"Then God said, 'Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.' So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them." (Genesis 1:26-27).


God in THREE Witnesses~read it all

The Bible is the Word of God......it does not contradict itself....Man however with his faults and 'Spiritual pride' thinks himself all knowing!
If one has no teacher, then one cannot begin to understand what is being said in subject,likewise a true understanding of the Word of God must have himself a teacher.
God in His great Mercy, has revealed to all of Mankind the Truth...The Son of God became the Son of Man who took away the ''the curse of the law’ (Gal. 3:13)also save man from Sin (2 Cor. 5:21)of which man brought onto himself...
God humbled himself to save fallen man so that man may be raised...and yet we fall and stay fallen.
The Son of God ‘came to call not the righteous,
but sinners to repentance’ (Mt. 9:13)


“All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.”
—2 Timothy 3:16-17




"Holy, holy, holy
is the LORD of hosts..."
(Isaiah 6:3)

IX
helen

[edit on 3/8/2008 by helen670]

reply to post by sparda4355

If he was "half" God as the pagons would believe... He would NOT be able to DIE on the cross...

Of course he would! Demigods are not immortal!

In early Christianity there were groups,such as the followers of Arian,who believed that Jesus was a demigod.

In myths and legends,when a demigod dies,they are usually given great honors and high status.A few,like Heracles,become a full God.(he was accepted into the Olympian Pantheon.)

If the devil deceives us into believing that Jesus is God he can continue to prove to us that we can’t live with out sin, and that it is ok to go on sinning. I know a lot of people that truly believe that Jesus is God, and all of them believe that we can’t be perfect, so that is enough proof to me right there that I am on the right track.

Majority opinion/belief doesnt determine truth. John 1:1 tells us that Jesus was with and was God.
There are many places in the bible indicating that the Father, the Son and teh Holy Spirit are three seperate entities in one person.
Difficult concept to grasp at first... think of a 2 dimensional person trying to get to know a 3 dimensional person.

The devil does not use just lies, in order to get someone to believe a lie you have to mix it in with some truth or something that at least sounds true or something that would be understood as truth.
The devils goals are to get you to doubt Gods word and to turn from God.
thats all that will satisfy him.

Hi. New here. I haven't had the opportunity to read the entire thread, just a few comments here and there to know that there is much disagreement whether Jesus is God or not. I, myself, do not believe he is God for the very reason that he himself said "No man has seen God." And the very fact that God himself said, "My glory I will not share with another." And that as to the Holy spirit appearing as a dove, this is not the true shape/image of God. I believe that what is really going on with these three is a mystery we should enter into very carefully. We must be humble enough to know we are but dust and God allows us to know only what he wants us to know, and there's very little (or nothing) we can do about it. I pray we try to be tolerant Christians, the way Jesus approached the woman (a Samaritan?) at the well and did not crush her mustard seed of faith, the way Jesus said of the Roman General that he had not found any greater faith in all of Israel and that Roman, obviously, understood no other form of Bible religion than mere Judaism, Jesus did not crush his mustard seed either. I have been frowned upon for not believing Jesus is God, by people who can show me scriptures that say he is. I can also show scriptures that imply he is not. But none of this matters really - shall we try to convert a man from Christianity to Christianity? This is foolishness and is a dishonor to the mustard seeds of faith we all have in us. Let's be tolerant, and watch, and wait, and pray. He is coming and his reward is with him. Don't get caught hating others when he gets here, my friends, he will see you as an evil servant beating on your fellow servants and cast you into the outer darkness with the rest of the hypocrites. Why let that happen to you when you can do better than that? This is the commandment I give to you, that you love one another, he said. It is better to have him say, Well done, good and faithful servant, than, depart from me you who work wickedness. God love you all. Time is running out, Israel is being surrounded by enemies, there is no time left to waste hating and arguing. Lift up up your heads, your redemption draws near. Don't eat and drink with sinners and beat on others, the Lord sees all.

reply to post by Methuselah


It appears to me that you either choose to ignore the several biblical quotes that I have shown to back up my belief or you simply have not yet read them... I have had these conversations a million times before, I have done sooooooooooooooooooo much research and if you actually use a tipping scale to see which side has MORE proof it is clearly that Jesus is the SON of God and that the very FEW verses that show that Jesus could in fact be God, are simply a stretch or a translation error...

[edit on 8-3-2008 by sparda4355]