Moses Was Hallucinating on Mt. Sinai: Study

Originally posted by masqua
One of the most common misrepresentations for any type of 'vision' that an individual might have is the charge that they were on some type of drugs.

I don't buy it.

Just because something is common doesn't mean it was the source.

Next thing we'll hear is that Martin Luther King was on something when he "had a dream".

Likewise, a common misrepresentation of visions had while hallucinating is that they are erroneous. Many innovations in culture and science have come during hallucinations. Sufi's mention it alot in their writings as well.

I think you're being a bit disingenuous with the MLK remark. He "had a dream", not a vision of a burning bush. And no one said "Gee.. look at the redness around his eyes" after his speech either, as they did when Moses came down from Sinai.

Originally posted by rizla
I think the evidence speaks for itself. I have learned something from this thread. Ancient jews and Jesus himself almost certainly used drugs and other drugs, including opium, to receive visions from God.

As such, I do wonder if this throws those visions into question.

[edit on 5-3-2008 by rizla]

It is getting late here and I am extremely tired, so let me see if I can get this out where it sounds coherent...

No I dont think it would throw visions into question. But I think it would change the way that we look at things or rather we would need to redevelop/rethink how we analyze and see things.

i.e. - The question of Quantum Physics & the mind...
And as I pointed out in another post - if God created the plants as well as humans, I doubt that either are 'evil', per say. Again, both the plant & the bodies are tools...and as a species we have been known to abuse both (i.e., overeating, etc.)...but does the abuse of a tool make the tool evil?

So the point is that plants are a mirror of something that we have already in us, so to speak. And if we can start to see the role '___' plays in our own body, at Death, in the womb before birth, and when dreaming... perhaps we can draw a parallel to that of the plant kingdom (if indeed "as above so below" and the plant kingdom is a reflections, as it were, of the 'higher' human body/intellect.)

Again, seeing how the brain works in light of quantum mechanics may indeed uncover all of these other things...such as visions, whether they are plant induced or directly induced from within the brain.

And if its all connected, then there may be something to learn from the visions if its coming from mass consciousness.

Now again, Im extremely tired, and I dont expect this post to exemplify the epitome of the english language...but the point is there for those who want to see it.

Peace

dAlen

My people I give you the fifteen "crash" uhh... I give you the Ten commandments.

Ugh I have to ask, but why exactly does he think that every religious movement or rite had such drugs back in the day? All the person said was "I experienced visions of spiritual-religious connotations" yet I don't know what visions this person saw. How can we be sure of this?

Furthermore I looked up this alleged planet on wikipedia (Not the best of sources I know but I just wanted a synopsis) and it seems that this plant is located in the amazon rainforest. Now It seems to me that this plant had a bit of a ways to go before actually reaching the middle east (if that is indeed where moses was). Although I won't deny it states it's used in religious practices, but in shamanism from what I see.

Ayahuasca (Quechua, pronounced [ajaˈwaska]) is any of various psychoactive infusions or decoctions prepared from the Banisteriopsis spp. vine, native to the Amazon Rainforest (which is also called ayahuasca). The resulting drinks are pharmacologically complex and used for shamanic, folk-medicinal, and religious purposes. To occidental ethno-biologists it is noted a variety of 200-300 plants are used in the different brews made by the Ayahuasceras. It is an open question whether Ayahuasca should be noted as one particular shamanic medicinal brew, or that it should be noted as an entire medicinal tradition specific to the Amazonas.

en.wikipedia.org...

That is very interesting and I could see how it would be true, but really does it matter? In the long run the true believers will not be convinced by anything that does not already fall in line with their beliefs. Be those beliefs for or against the things in the bible the outcome is the same.

I tried to believe, but I found the bible to come off as a fanciful story with a lot of good lessons to be had. Do I believe he saw a real burning bush? Of course not, that just seems goofy to me so the idea of him being high as a kite makes sense. I am more willing to accept it than say a Christian, who likely would just be offended at the very implication.

editing to add that even if he was high, does that discredit what he saw or give him more spiritual credit to things that can only be seen while high?

[edit on 5-3-2008 by MaMaa]

I know this might be a little off topic, but here's "proof" that the burning bush was actually samuel L. Jackson lol!



www.youtube.com...

[edit on 5-3-2008 by Question]

All the shamens/ heavy religius figures/tribes witches n wizards all took Psycadelic plants/mushrooms way back then as a means to communicate or get info from there gods n spirits.

its common knowlege. do a google.

theyve been doing it for thousands of years.
Nothing as strong as '___'. they wouldent have the means to extract it but psycoactives in plants and obviously Mushrooms were used very heavily.

thats not to say that moses visions were nothing more than a trip as ....'___' for example can open up things that were not usually exposed to...other dimentions planes and entities.

I'm shure youve all heard the name terrence Mckenna on here. do a search on youtube for him.


*BIG SNIP* I went unconsiouse and found myself in a different place and experiancing two different timeframes at the same time. with high up entities trying to get my attention.

it was the stupidest thing IU've ever done and I suffer from anxiety attacks ever since.

but ye most similar role figures in them days used them.




[edit on 10-3-2008 by NGC2736]

Originally posted by QuazgaHeck the guys who came up with the double helix model for DNA were hallucinating on '___' at the time, and we don't dispute that because it was drug induced.

Is that right. wow. I didn't know that.

Originally posted by rizla

Originally posted by QuazgaHeck the guys who came up with the double helix model for DNA were hallucinating on '___' at the time, and we don't dispute that because it was drug induced.

Is that right. wow. I didn't know that.

Yep, Here's the link

Originally posted by MaMaa
That is very interesting and I could see how it would be true, but really does it matter? In the long run the true believers will not be convinced by anything that does not already fall in line with their beliefs.

You summed it up nicely.
No one will change their thought on a subject unless they are already predisposed to doing so.

No amount of debate, evangelizing, etc. will matter to those with their minds set.

Having been on both sides of the fence, I see its futility. Telling someone something that they dont want to hear will only lead to circular debates.
Their mind/heart just isnt ready.

I used to be an evangelical and could win a debate with any of the 'cults' (trained in apologetics), but ironically no matter how concrete the answer was...those dedicated in their established belief would not change.

Now that Im more relaxed its the same when trying to get Christians to go past the drinking milk stage. Or to look at things from a different perspective, which included dropping a lot of judgement and fear. Most of the time, they just arent ready.

Its something I already know - but "knowing the path and walking it" is two different things. So I write thinking that perhaps it will help challenge someones thought and it doesnt even (the concept) make it through the front door before the filter of the brains cultural grid system kicks in.

So really when I write or any of us, I suppose we talk to ourselves...or to those that are already on the path for a transition. As anything else will just cause both sided to turn blue in the face.

Life is interesting indeed. Suppose the point is in the joy of what we do.

peace

dAlen

Even if Moses or any other Biblical figure was hallucinating due to some drug, it does not mean that their teachings were any less special. If you live in any major American city, you probably see many people each day who have hallucinations and claim to see and hear all sorts of things. Unlike Moses, these people are for the most part ignored.

Moses and others like him were somehow able to get entire civilizations to pay attention to their teachings. These teachings have been studied, followed, and examined by millions of people thousands of years after they were first recorded. Whethery you attribute Moses' teachings to drugs, mere human creativity, or the divine, you must concede they are special because they have withstood the test of time.

Originally posted by Leviatano

Furthermore I looked up this alleged planet on wikipedia (Not the best of sources I know but I just wanted a synopsis) and it seems that this plant is located in the amazon rainforest. Now It seems to me that this plant had a bit of a ways to go before actually reaching the middle east (if that is indeed where moses was). Although I won't deny it states it's used in religious practices, but in shamanism from what I see.

Just to let you know that there are plants in the middle east that contain MAOI (P. Harmala) - used for centuries in the dyeing of fabrics. There are also many plants containing quite high levels of '___' (Acacias for one). While ayahuasca is essentially an Amazon medicine, analogues of ayahuasca can be produced by many plants so in effect it is quite possible for a hallucingenic brew to be used in the 'time' of moses.


G

reply to post by Elisha4Yah


Does your faith require historical accuracy? If so, I'll bet it's awfully shaky, what with clouds being the dust from god's feet and of course, that whole "flood" business...

O.k. -

This is in from an Orthodox, Sephardic Rabbi.
Of note, he does NOT approve of drug use at all.

However, read this excerpt from his latest article:

Occult/Danger in Drugs [link is a pdf]
Some religious incense burning was performed because the spices when burned produced a smoke that when inhaled produced a hallucinogenic affect.
In essence it was like taking a drug. I have already discussed above how dangerous this type of activity is to the unprepared.

Incense burning was not only practiced by the forces of the dark side, it was also burned in the Holy Temple in Jerusalem. The recipe for the Biblical Ketoret incense burned in the Temple was a closely guarded secret guarded within a single family of Temple Levites. ...Biblical law dictated that it was forbidden to reproduce or use the Ketoret Temple incense outside of the Holy Place in the Temple. Violation of this law was punishable by death.

...One thing about the Ketoret that has come down to us in history is that some claimed that it too produced an alteration in brain chemistry. Thus the inhalation of the smoke of the Ketoret incense combined with the special Priestly garments of the High Priest, along with the Presence of the Ark of the Covenant and the special location of the Holy of Holies in the Temple combined to create a spiritual/psychic window that enabled the High Priest to commune directly with G-d.

Again, emphasis is on historical aspect, as the Rabbi clearly states that this practice should be avoided, and states the reasons for this.

This post is also to help those who claim they are Christians to wake up and realize they dont know the Bible. They know dogma. Their pastors dont even know the Bible...few do. And those that do either use it to manipulate you, or have not yet dealt with what it is it is saying...or may be trying to safely guide you past the baby stages. (though I have not met a pastor out of their own baby stage...yet)

Search the 'Word' for yourself and open your minds past the confines of your own perspective (grid system) and find the truth when you "seek with all your heart - you will find"

There are very few Christians on these boards that actually have gone into the depths of Christianity I have realized, just by the nature of the post themselves. Many are actually what I would have considered to be 'heathen', so to speak, in my more zealous years.

Awaken your eyes, and do not be full of pride. Seek not an identity in that which you call your faith, as its not even faith but a mask you wear to show the world who you 'think' you are. Faith is not about a 'me' but about 'oneness' with "I AM".

Peace

dAlen

[edit on 12-3-2008 by dAlen]

I don't know if he used drugs but there is solid proof of Mt. Sinai. Everything is right on youtube, photos of all the things mentioned in the Bible. Now I'm not a Christian or Jew, and I don't believe everything in the Bible is the word of God. I do believe in spiritual beings but how do you prove one is supreme? Can't be done, case closed.
Look up Jabel al Lawz, Mt. Sinai or Ron Wyatt on Youtube.


www.youtube.com...
www.youtube.com...
www.youtube.com...



[edit on 6-7-2009 by Sargoth]