Moses Was Hallucinating on Mt. Sinai: Study

reply to post by dAlen


My friend so far this the best and most informative post so far and one that brings the issue behind the OP.

Every civilization in ancient times had their own ways to enhance their mental awareness to their surroundings and spiritual beings for the purpose of communication with the higher realms that otherwise were no achieved while in normal state, many times it was done as ritual of purification.

This is something that was natural at the time and expected.

Narrow mindedness and the denial that the bible characters were far from perfect if they indeed were real have no room on the believers mentality.

And as usual just posting a couple of passages from the bible seems to fix the problem.

I am amazed that certain topics are seem as disrespectful and Christian bashing when actually they are great topic for conspiracies in religion forum and end up in the preaching and bashing mode making the topic turn into trash.

Pity.

I enjoyed reading your post dAlen

I read the article and it hardly seems like a "study". More like a conversation to me. It isn't exactly a huge leap of logic to think that someone who talked to a burning bush was on some sort of psychedelic drug. I am SURE that moses isn't the only person to ever have a detailed discussion with a plant. Now, just because he demonstrated some common side effects of a hallucinogen, doesn't mean that he was actually on one. The whole idea is ridiculous, especially given how much attention it has received.

To the poster who said that he smoked pot. Who cares? Pot may be considered a hallucinogen, but it would never cause the hallucinations that he would have had.

Originally posted by masqua
If you were to look at my postings here, you'd find me to be no great advocate of biblical accounts. However, I find the suggestion that it likely was drugs more of a fishing expedition than fact finding. History is full of accounts where people suddenly had some great insight or vision.

They're called Eureka moments.

EUREKA!
Where do great ideas come from?

Nobel Prize laureate John Polanyi, U of T's most famous chemist, agrees. He points to James Watson's account of the discovery of the structure of DNA, which is recounted in Watson's popular book The Double Helix. Watson tells how his research partner, Francis Crick, ran into a Cambridge pub one day screaming about the breakthrough. ...

www.magazine.utoronto.ca...

I doubt if these people were also on some kind of hallucinogen.

Wasn't Crick supposed to have been HALLUCINATING on '___' when he discovered the the double helix? www.hallucinogens.com...
Although Crick never went on record saying so he did have an affinity for such things as the legalization of cannabis and of course '___' and other hallucinogens

The story of Moses and the burning bush is a bit of a reach AND I agree that such psychotropic substances have played a major part but also I believe that such visions are possible without them.

For that reason, I'd prefer to say that we just don't know what happened more than two millenia ago.

I agree that such 'visions' are possible without the aid of hallucinogens but that still doesn't make it any less of a hallucination nor the work of some supernatural deity

Originally posted by dbates

So, what then? you're going to pick and choose the parts of the Bible you wish to disprove and then dismiss the rest with the wave of your hand? Did Jesus give his disciples '___' to hand out to the 5000 men so they would think he fed them or did he actually feed 5000 with 5 loaves of bread and 2 fish?

I don't understand. Why would you single out some parts as pure fiction, yet other parts you accept solely for the purpose of disproving.

There is a clear difference between the OT and NT - in the time scale and the religious influence of the person who wrote the specifics. I myself find the OT to be more truthful in parts than the NT although I am in total agreement with another poster that there is no evidence for the existence of Moses nor the parting of the Reed Sea (I think thats the correct translation and I think I read something about a land bridge that can appear under certain conditions perhaps giving rise to the story) and as far as I'm aware the walls of Jericho were damaged by earthquakes which can produce audible noises on occasion , again perhaps giving rise to the story.



G

Originally posted by Karlhungis
I read the article and it hardly seems like a "study". More like a conversation to me. It isn't exactly a huge leap of logic to think that someone who talked to a burning bush was on some sort of psychedelic drug. I am SURE that moses isn't the only person to ever have a detailed discussion with a plant. Now, just because he demonstrated some common side effects of a hallucinogen, doesn't mean that he was actually on one. The whole idea is ridiculous, especially given how much attention it has received.

Thats not strictly true as the plant chemicals needed for such a hallucination were/are very common in the biblical lands and were used widespread during biblical times (maybe not in a divinatory sense - no evidence, but could quite as easily been consumed).


G

Well, as someone who believes that drugs just open the door to other realities, it's rather a moot point to me. While I personally do not mess with mind-altering substances, I do think they are a way to see things that are there which the normal fives senses do not perceive.

With that being said, does it really matter? Much of what the bible has stated is true. So regardless of whether they got it from some drug induced haze or a supernatural event matters not.



[edit on 5-3-2008 by SpeakerofTruth]

Originally posted by shihulud
I agree that such 'visions' are possible without the aid of hallucinogens but that still doesn't make it any less of a hallucination nor the work of some supernatural deity

Yes, good point, and allow me to expand upon it because you hit upon something that is really relevant to this subject as a whole.

Lets take a look at '___'.

'___' is a substance that is in the brain and in plants.

In certain countries it is illegal to take '___' (although it is an irony as I suppose we could be rated as illegal as well.) Some will say that our brains are not getting "high" off of the '___' - but as the poster I quoted hinted at...it is possible with your own '___' to have the same experience.

Look at it this way:

My understanding is that the numerous plants that contain '___', are by themselves "inactive". You could eat it all day and not have one vision, so to speak.
The shamans and priest (who have legal permission) would have to use a Mao inhibitor in order to make the '___' 'kick in' and have visions.

The reason that the above paragraph is so important is because it may give a clue into the use of '___' that naturally occurs in our brains, and how prophets of old may have even been able to 'see visions' without using plants with Mao inhibitors.

Perhaps deep meditation and a life of a buddhist monk, so to speak, brings about the requirements to unlock the '___' in the brain.

Yet there are arguments that '___' is used while we sleep and at birth (in the womb), and even at Death.

Now I have an article somewhere on here about an O.B.E. experience I had, as well as a N.D.E./what-not, that got me to think along the lines of what Im posting here.
I read other peoples N.D.E.s and wanted to find out if there was some connection to the chemicals produced in the brain. ('___') I dont want to go more into that now, but this kind of is a good starting point into speculation into such things.

Im not sure how clearly I stated all this, but if you think that God made nature and he made humans, it would seem more logical that the plant world would replicate that which we could inherently do in ourselves. This would negate the whole argument that Gods plant kindgom is somehow evil just because we as humans misuse it.

We misuse our bodies, does that make our bodies evil as well? (overeat, chemical foods, etc.)

"There is a time and place for everything" -

peace

dAlen




[edit on 5-3-2008 by dAlen]

reply to post by dAlen


We know that the people in the bible practiced meditation, food deprivation as fasting and prayer.

All this could have been detrimental of how they may have perceived their dreams, visions and divine encounters.

Moses was the first actually recorder person in the bible that practiced this rituals.

So is should not be dismissed that his visions could have been influenced by the lack of food.

The longest fasting recorded in the bible also lasted 40 days, now what can this do to a human being.

Originally posted by marg6043
So is should not be dismissed that his visions could have been influenced by the lack of food.

The longest fasting recorded in the bible also lasted 40 days, now what can this do to a human being.

Indeed it shouldnt be dismissed, and I would love to see some studies to see what happened in such cases. (Im sure someone has tested this, as everything else from sleep deprivation, etc. has been tested. Although such claims may be hard to verify, as well as the intent of the study may not have been geared specifically to this end. However any such test probably did not go long enough for them to see the effect such as visions in the person being tested.)

Good point.
I wonder how Jesus 40 days would have affected his '___' (activating it) in his brain.
(i.e. Live dreams?)

Peace

dAlen


[edit on 5-3-2008 by dAlen]

KANEH BOSM MANNA '___' all take you to GOD, not in your head to HIM! I am still flabergasted by Christians who believe in another "dimension" spirit world, but refuse to believe this the way to him,... and when I say HIM I mean YOURSELF! GOD IS WITHIN YOU CHRISTIANS NOW RIGHT! GO FIND HIM! HE IS YOU!

ALL Hebrew Priests DID make HEMP oil, hash, and were under the influence of THC,(during temt meetings at the least) the HEBREWS in fact ate mushrooms, the entheoginic kind! Why does this change a "christians" view anyway? do your research and you will find that these 2 facts are indeed TRUE! How would this change the Bible anyway?

This is extremely interesting and I thank you for taking some time to share this story. This makes loads of sense.

I can see it now, the ancient people eating shrooms and smoking "ganja" then getting all worked up over their hollucinations and saying they saw a divine being (most of the time being God) then the person goes and writes down what the trippy glowing god told them and leaves it for us down the line to say, "Hey, this is the meaning of life."

Honestly, I don't think anyone trully understands every thread that makes up not only our existence, but everything around us.

I'm going to reffer to the universe as a 1 trillion watt light bulb. ( I know, but stick with me)
If the vast expanse of the universe was a lightbulb and you beleive in god then god would be powering this lightbulb.(Infusing his energy to make it light up)

I strongy theorize that we (being, us humans in the present) only can harness 1 watt of energy on that scale which would be our a-bomb, or hydrogen bomb.

If I'm correct than we can never begin to scratch the surface of who or what our creator is. We will never understand fully what god is in this lifetime or dimension, I think welbegin to remember once we leave this plane of existence and go back to where we came from.

Therefor (If I am correct, which is totally up to your subconciense to decide) We shouldn't even try to imagine who or what our creator is, we should just know that, scientifically, something had to create us. Weather it be the big bang, a god, or something totally different.

And I for one am very comfortable knowing that someone or something lightyears ahead of us intelligence wise (If such a thing exists) controls every aspect of our existence from where were born to when we die. I think that if you don't commit suicide from all of the emotions that it gave us you would feel in your heart like me that science can't explain everything. Maybe we just have to use the emotion Hope that we aquired for some reason, that there's a god or creator of our universe. Maybe we were just given emotions so the creator could marvel at how we love it and how some members of our species of animal[(Homo sapiens)don't forget we're animals too]don't beleive he exist even though it we couldn't even think.

Originally posted by KanehBosm
KANEH BOSM MANNA '___' all take you to GOD, not in your head to HIM! I am still flabergasted by Christians who believe in another "dimension" spirit world, but refuse to believe this the way to him,... and when I say HIM I mean YOURSELF! GOD IS WITHIN YOU CHRISTIANS NOW RIGHT! GO FIND HIM! HE IS YOU!

You bring up an interesting point, at least from how Im understanding you.
Words are tricky though and depending on who your talking to, they will take them differently (according to the grid system of their milieu...initially)

Yes, Christians (should) know that the Bible says that "I am in Christ and Christ is in me".
What does that mean? "And Christ is the head and we are the body."
Some think this is a political agenda for the earth, although Jesus was dead set against an earthly kingdom while here.

What you say can be dangerous (or perceived that way) by Christians, depending, again, on how they take it and on where they are at in their 'walk'.
Most arent comfortable with it...its 'work' and 'fear' (ironically the opposite of the Christian faith.)

Anyway...we all pick up different layers of meanings as we walk our journey (or perhaps the majority not...what do I know about these things)

peace

dAlen

edit: read back through post...on basic reading my response doesnt add much...for sure not to clarity, but anyway...

[edit on 5-3-2008 by dAlen]

I don't think there is any great issue here. Check the references to early judaic cannabis use. From what I have read and posted, it seems clear to me that cannabis was not only well-known, but used as incense and ointment by ancient jews. This is hardly surprising. The stuff has a potent smell (Cannabis means Aromatic-reed in ancient Hebrew), and of course they would have burned the stuff.

I quoted a section of the bible which notes the use of cannabis. Someone else posted another version without the cannabis reference. Is anybody familiar with early versions of the bible? Can they clarify this. I'm pretty certain my version is right.

Really, a lot of people (i.e. certain 'Christians', and please note the quotes) have taken umbrage with the idea that ancient jews used cannabis and got high on the stuff for whatever reason. But they are just trying to make ancient judaism and the bible fit their personal bias. We try to deal with reality on these forums, not reality as your narrow and particular version of pseudo-christianity would like to view it.

[edit on 5-3-2008 by rizla]

Originally posted by KanehBosm
ALL Hebrew Priests DID make HEMP oil, hash, and were under the influence of THC,(during temt meetings at the least) the HEBREWS in fact ate mushrooms, the entheoginic kind!

Would you share the sources for the above statement(s)?

Peace

dAlen

Originally posted by rizla Sorry guys, but we try to deal with reality on these forums, not reality as your narrow and particular version of pseudo-christianity would like to view it. There are forums on the net where your narrow and distorted views are catered for. I suggest you use them.

[edit on 5-3-2008 by rizla]

This is where the us vs. them mentality comes in.
Im sure if you sit back and consider it you will see it too.
The typical response to the above would be a defense and then an offense.
(Typical ego style, both sides really.) But beyond that, what would probably help go further is to post direct references to what your referring to.

That would be cool, if someone had the energy (Im tired now, about to fall asleep at the keyboard)
But if someone has the energy, collect the sources, as I mentioned earlier, and list the scholars, rabbis, etc that can back this up.

As I mentioned Christians do have a limited perspective on the bigger picture and take their modern version of a religion that is much older than theirs, as the way. (and even that is fragmented into many pieces.) Again, this is not an attack...just an observance from a fellow traveller that has walked a similar path.

So if there are legit sources, and by legit, it would help if it was from a scholar of ancient Israel, etc. or even a rabbi. Now this will not convince anyone, but it will at least plant the seed for them to search...if they truly want to know the truth the door will be there for them to walk through.

peace

dAlen

reply to post by dAlen


Interesting that as I am searching the net for information on this topic, I am finding very good information of what the actual anointing oil used to be made off.

I am just amazed that in ancient times anointing oil was used for many things and I guess it was a reason why it was so special after all.

Fascinating subject.

Originally posted by rizla
More evidence early Jews used Pot.

The roots of the Hebrew word kaneh-bosm

Benet explained that "in the original Hebrew text of the Old Testament there are references to hemp, both as incense, which was an integral part of religious celebration, and as an intoxicant."

Benet demonstrated that the word for cannabis is kaneh-bosm, also rendered in traditional Hebrew as kaneh or kannabus. The root kan in this construction means "reed" or "hemp", while bosm means "aromatic". This word appears five times in the Old Testament; in the books of Exodus, the Song of Songs, Isaiah, Jeremiah, and Ezekiel.

That could a long way to explain the exodus!

Moses and his followers get as high as kites on ritual cannabis preparations, then have the idea to go wandering around the desert looking for a 'land of milk and honey' as they've all got a serious case of the munchies

[edit on 5-3-2008 by citizen smith]

Originally posted by dAlen
This is where the us vs. them mentality comes in.
Im sure if you sit back and consider it you will see it too.

Sure, I already removed it before reading your comment. Thanks and keep up the good work.

Is it really so surprising that early jews used cannabis and perhaps other drugs to gain religious inspiration? It's common practice amongst many shamanistic type religions. Why should Judaism be any different? Did opium also grow in the middle-east? If so, I imagine they used that too.

Taking it one step further, was Jesus himself a Cannabis user?

Heres an informative link: Did Jesus use Cannabis?

Here are some quotes, but the page has a lot of pertinent info:

In ancient times cannabis was widely cultivated throughout the Middle East. It grows like a weed and provides nourishing seed, which is also a good source of fibre used to make rope.

Ancient wines were always fortified, like the "strong wine" of the Old Testament, with herbal additives: opium, datura, belladonna, mandrake and henbane. Common incenses, such as myrrh, ambergris and frankincense are psychotropic.

So, did Jesus use cannabis? I think so. The word Christ does mean "the anointed one" and Bennett contends that Christ was anointed with chrism, a cannabis-based oil, that caused his spiritual visions. The ancient recipe for this oil, recorded in Exodus, included over 9lb of flowering cannabis tops (known as kaneh-bosem in Hebrew), extracted into a hin (about 11 pints) of olive oil, with a variety of other herbs and spices. The mixture was used in anointing and fumigations that, significantly, allowed the priests and prophets to see and speak with Yahweh.

Residues of cannabis, moreover, have been detected in vessels from Judea and Egypt ... holy anointing oil was used by the shamanic Levite priesthood to receive the "revelations of the Lord". The chosen ones were drenched in this potent cannabis oil.

I think the evidence speaks for itself. I have learned something from this thread. Ancient jews and Jesus himself almost certainly used drugs and other drugs, including opium, to receive visions from God.

As such, I do wonder if this throws those visions into question.

[edit on 5-3-2008 by rizla]

Honestly, what makes more sense, and is more logical.

Moses really heard the voice of God and scribed the 10 Commandments on 2 tablets, talked to a burning bush, parted the Red Sea, etc.....

Or

He and many of his peers were all on hallucinogenic drugs? I really don't think the answer is too terribly difficult to find. Ive taken a few hallucinogens in my time, and have definitely seen things that were not there, and I could have sworn they were real.

Also, I did '___' one time. As soon as I exhaled the smoke I saw my entire life flash before me, from my birth all the way to my death, in the matter of a second...one of the most intense and lasting experiences that I have ever had. This was years ago, and I still remember vivid details to this day.

Just food for thought...

Originally posted by Elisha4Yah
What if I say no. Absolutely not. Moses was genuine in what he saw, heard and did? Would it end there? You have to take everything Moses did and said into account and then everything that was said about him by prophets and those who followed. You'd have to say the entire bible was false if it were true that Moses was hallucinating. You'd have to say Jesus was deceived and Paul too.

Whoa... How do you jump so quickly from "If it's a Hallucination"... to "Then Jesus and Paul were deceived!"?????

Your "100% no" response is pretty dim witted. What if the Hallucinations allowed him to see the truth of which he spoke?

Just because he may or may not have been hallucinating doesn't disqualify the data. Heck the guys who came up with the double helix model for DNA were hallucinating on '___' at the time, and we don't dispute that because it was drug induced.