Moses Was Hallucinating on Mt. Sinai: Study

A researcher at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem claims in a recent study that mind-altering substances were regularly used during religious rites from biblical times performed by Israelites. Professor Benny Shanon said of Moses on Mt. Sinai:

"As far Moses on Mount Sinai is concerned, it was either a supernatural cosmic event, which I don't believe, or a legend, which I don't believe either, or finally, and this is very probable, an event that joined Moses and the people of Israel under the effect of narcotics," Shanon told Israeli public radio on Tuesday

Shanon, who admits using ayahuasca, an Amazonian religious drug, has effects akin to acacia tree bark mentioned by the Bible. He said the "burning bush" was likely a hallucination. "The Bible says people see sounds, and that is a classic phenomenon."





www.breitbart.com...


I guess the question I ask. Is it possible Moses was hallucinating?

What if I say no. Absolutely not. Moses was genuine in what he saw, heard and did? Would it end there? You have to take everything Moses did and said into account and then everything that was said about him by prophets and those who followed. You'd have to say the entire bible was false if it were true that Moses was hallucinating. You'd have to say Jesus was deceived and Paul too. Are people that desperate to disproove the word of God that they'd believe such a thing as this? It is baffling to me that people will go to such great lengths to discredit the bible, but won't move one inch into seeking the truths found within. It's almost deliberately embedded within a person- somewhere to 'not' believe in Him.

So the answer is 100% No. Moses was legit, but don't take my word for it

One of the most common misrepresentations for any type of 'vision' that an individual might have is the charge that they were on some type of drugs.

I don't buy it.

Just because something is common doesn't mean it was the source.

Next thing we'll hear is that Martin Luther King was on something when he "had a dream".

Originally posted by masqua
Next thing we'll hear is that Martin Luther King was on something when he "had a dream".

Yes, I don't buy it all either. It seems to be another attempt to smear the Word of God.

an event that joined Moses and the people of Israel under the effect of narcotics,"

So how much narcotics do you have to take to get the Red Sea to part so you can cross to the other side? What's the dosage you need to take to get the Jordan river to dry up and make the walls of Jericho fall down, etc. ?

Sounds like someone hasn't done their homework. If you're going to discount all of this then why even discuss the Bible to begin with?

It's make a lot of sense to me. Many religions utilize drugs for spiritual reasons. Consider Mithras which used drugs in its initiation mysteries. Mithras was a contemporary religion of Christianity, and Christianity drew a lot from it. So it's logical that if Christianity wasn't already using drugs, it took it from the Mithras cult.

well knowing moses, Id say he took the substance and knew it was not a hallucination, only like one. Or even more likely, he knew how to achieve the same state as is induced by the natural OR un natural influx of '___' produced by your pineal gland. You get a burst at birth, and at death, and a regulated dose ALL the time, one can induce such states through meditation as well.
The fact that '___' is in our brains letting us perceive reality, and in the sacred acacia, is no mere coincidence.
Hallucinations can be very real in their own right.
I have tripped on a branch before and while in a form that let me traverse through solid objects, I could read the details of an upcoming event from fliers on the wall in the next room. I purposely went to try and read something from another room to see if it could be verified. Yes. And no, its not because I read it already, I did not. I wanted very badly to know it was just a hallucination so I could put the other visions to rest, but nooo. the universe is weird like that.
I add my story only because the visions of the prophets and sages are verified like that as well, only they do not doubt it in the first place, which is what makes it a vision rather than a hallucination.

Originally posted by dbates
So how much narcotics do you have to take to get the Red Sea to part so you can cross to the other side? What's the dosage you need to take to get the Jordan river to dry up and make the walls of Jericho fall down, etc. ?

Yes, but there is no evidence those things really happened.

Here's an interesting link that argues Jesus used Cannabis:

Jesus must have used Marijuana

The very word "Christ", by the implication of its linguistic origins and true meaning, gives us the most profound evidence that Jesus did in fact use the same herb as his ancient semitic ancestors...

The Greek title "Christ" is the translation of the Hebrew word Messiah, which in English becomes "The Anointed" The Messiah was recognized as such by his being anointed with the holy anointing oil, the use of which was restricted to the instillation of Hebrew priests and kings. If Jesus was not initiated in this fashion then he was not the Christ, and had no official claim to the title.

The ancient recipe for this anointing oil, recorded in the Old Testament book of Exodus (30: 22-23) included over nine pounds of flowering cannabis tops, Hebrew "kaneh-bosm", extracted into a hind (about 6.5 litres) of olive oil, along with a variety of other herbs and spices. The ancient chosen ones were literally drenched in this potent cannabis holy oil.

If you were to look at my postings here, you'd find me to be no great advocate of biblical accounts. However, I find the suggestion that it likely was drugs more of a fishing expedition than fact finding. History is full of accounts where people suddenly had some great insight or vision.

They're called Eureka moments.

EUREKA!
Where do great ideas come from?

Nobel Prize laureate John Polanyi, U of T's most famous chemist, agrees. He points to James Watson's account of the discovery of the structure of DNA, which is recounted in Watson's popular book The Double Helix. Watson tells how his research partner, Francis Crick, ran into a Cambridge pub one day screaming about the breakthrough. Polanyi believes that such moments, while memorable, are the exception rather than the rule. "Most people who run into pubs saying they've found the secret of life have already been to several other pubs and are drunk," jokes Polanyi. In his own lab, Polanyi says that researchers who burst in to announce that they've made a great discovery often come back the next day with a sheepish look on their face, forced to admit they've made a mistake. Most discoveries rest on long, laborious research efforts. "I'm convinced that before Archimedes did what he did, he must have performed similar experiments quite a few times," Polanyi says. Georges confirms that his breakthrough with polymerization did not come overnight. "I had the idea, but it didn't work immediately," he says. "I probably worked six days a week, 10 hours a day…. It took eight to nine months of solid work."

www.magazine.utoronto.ca...

The link goes on to show a few famous examples.

I doubt if these people were also on some kind of hallucinogen. The story of Moses and the burning bush is a bit of a reach AND I agree that such psychotropic substances have played a major part but also I believe that such visions are possible without them.

For that reason, I'd prefer to say that we just don't know what happened more than two millenia ago.

More evidence early Jews used Pot.

The roots of the Hebrew word kaneh-bosm

Benet explained that "in the original Hebrew text of the Old Testament there are references to hemp, both as incense, which was an integral part of religious celebration, and as an intoxicant."

Benet demonstrated that the word for cannabis is kaneh-bosm, also rendered in traditional Hebrew as kaneh or kannabus. The root kan in this construction means "reed" or "hemp", while bosm means "aromatic". This word appears five times in the Old Testament; in the books of Exodus, the Song of Songs, Isaiah, Jeremiah, and Ezekiel.

So in Hebrew, 'Cannabis' means literally aromatic-reed. Fascinating. The word Cannabis is actually Hebrew! And ancient jews burned it as incense. It's certain they would have got high.

There's more

THEN THE LORD SAID TO MOSES, "TAKE THE FOLLOWING FINE SPICES: 500 SHEKELS OF LIQUID MYRRH, HALF AS MUCH OF FRAGRANT CINNAMON, 250 SHEKELS OF KANNABOSM, 500 SHEKELS OF CASSIA - ALL ACCORDING TO THE SANCTUARY SHEKEL - AND A HIND OF OLIVE OIL. MAKE THESE INTO MAKE THESE INTO A SACRED ANNOITING OIL, A FRAGRANT BLEND, THE WORK OF A PERFUMER. IT WILL BE THE SACRED ANNOITING OIL.

THEN USE IT TO ANOINT THE TENT OF THE MEETING, THE ARK OF THE TESTIMONY, THE TABLE AND ALL ITS ARTICLES, THE LAMPSTAND AND ITS ACCESSORIES, THE ALTAR OF INCENSE, THE ALTAR OF BURNT OFFERING AND ALL ITS UTENSILS, AND THE BASIN WITH ITS STAND. YOU SHALL CONSECRATE THEM SO THEY WILL BE MOST HOLY, AND WHATEVER TOUCHES THEM WILL BE HOLY.

Sorry, not my caps.

So God told Moses to make an ointment packed with pot, cover everything with it, and then said that anyone who touches it will be holy. Cannabis applied to the skin will make you high.

I think we can agree this is more than just circumstantial evidence that Cannabis was used not only by ancient jews, but by Moses himself.

So there you go. It's almost certain that Moses got high on dope. You learn something new everyday.

[edit on 4-3-2008 by rizla]

[edit on 4-3-2008 by rizla]

First of all in order to believe that even Moises was real you have to be a believer I will say that he was neither on drugs or he never saw anything and he never was there is all in the imagination of those that foretold the accounts of moses stories.

They are the ones that probably were on some kind of drugs or self induce motivational high when they put their stories together.

Originally posted by rizla

Originally posted by dbates
So how much narcotics do you have to take to get the Red Sea to part so you can cross to the other side?

Yes, but there is no evidence those things really happened.

So, what then? you're going to pick and choose the parts of the Bible you wish to disprove and then dismiss the rest with the wave of your hand? Did Jesus give his disciples '___' to hand out to the 5000 men so they would think he fed them or did he actually feed 5000 with 5 loaves of bread and 2 fish?

I don't understand. Why would you single out some parts as pure fiction, yet other parts you accept solely for the purpose of disproving.

You guys are ridiculous. I pretty much proved that not only ancient jews, but Moses himself was a pot user, and you totally ignore it. What a joke. You're not worth the time of day debating.

Originally posted by rizla
You guys are ridiculous. I pretty much proved that not only ancient jews, but Moses himself was a pot user, and you totally ignore it. What a joke. You're not worth the time of day debating.

Allow me to interject. Word games are not proof. One cannot accuse someone with the last name of 'Stone' of being a stoner or pot head. So is the same with Messiah (which does translate into meaning anointed one as you mentioned but also in a spiritual sense- not just physical) then connecting it with the recipes of anointing oil.

Even then, here is the list of ingredients to make the oil with the original Hebrew words used in the passage you cited from Exodus 30:23. The following lists the English translation, the transliterated Hebrew in parentheses, and the links will lead you to an online lexicon so you can see for yourself:

Myrrh (more)
Cinnamon (qinnamown)
Fragrant [sweet] cane (qaneh)
Cassia (qiddah)

Then, as dbates said, you cannot pick something in the Bible to disprove the Bible if you think the entire thing is false anyways. It is either true or false, reliable or unreliable.

Hope that helps, Hon.

reply to post by rizla


All you've proven is how desperate you are to legitimize pot smoking.

It's so ridiculous it is making me sad that you actually probably believe it.
I really hope you're doing it just to piss people off, for your own sake. Write it up and see how far it gets with a serious history journal.

Originally posted by Bigwhammy
All you've proven is how desperate you are to legitimize pot smoking.

Bigwhammy, I did not see that this person claimed to have been a pot user who wants it legitimized or legalized in your state. (by the way usage of it is already legal in certain states for medicinal purposes...and legal in other countries for recreational, etc.)

My point is, not everyone who wants to discuss this topic with an open mind has or will use pot. I have not used it, and no Im not against the usage of it. As I have said before, there is a time and place for everything and the medical journals have documented the medicinal use of THC so much so they are synthesizing it.

This seems to be more of a fear point with most evangelicals and I can only say its time for the majority of Christians to wake up...drop the fear that they were commanded not to have, and stop playing the judge as they were also commanded, and see their own fruits and work it out with 'fear and trembling.'

Originally posted by dbates
So how much narcotics do you have to take to get the Red Sea to part so you can cross to the other side? What's the dosage you need to take to get the Jordan river to dry up and make the walls of Jericho fall down, etc. ?

And dbates, it is quite normal also for Christians not to be familiar with the very backbone and history of that faith which they have. Christianity came from a religion that is by far older than it...Judaism. Jesus was a Jew, Paul was a Jew, and I will say the majority of Christians do not know - actually do not understand their own text due to the lack of understanding of Judaism.

They would understand Paul in a new light if they had a better grasp that what they thought he said is not what he is saying, and they will see some very esoterical jewish elements there, because that is what he practiced...

So about the Red Sea parting. Does that have to do with anything? Your talking technology/miracles, not prophesy/meditation used to get in those states of communication. There was a school of prophets by the way.

And the reason I brought up the first bit was this. Most Christians dont get that the Genesis account is looked at in 4 stages. P.R.D.S. (the first letter is Pshat and is akin to your parable level of understanding.)

Does this surprise you or any Christian? After all, Jesus, a Jew, taught in parables.
What Im saying is that the very beginning of the Bible that Christians take for face value is not even taken for face value in Judaism and looked at as a parable.

Now, moving on to complete the circle.
Its not the first time I have heard this, I have heard this within orthodox jewish circles as well, albeit said very carefully and sparingly as most people would take it the wrong way and have it as an excuse to go light up...or worse it would be a 'jew hunt' by the christians saying they were clinging to teachings of Babylon or such non-sense.

So you have to have an open mind when you follow this commandment from Jesus:
"Seek with ALL your heart, and when you do, you WIll find."

But as long as you seek in that which you think you already know, and in the darkness of the dogma that hinders...you will only be the blind leading the blind. (this is a general statement, as was the whole post. Dbates this was not aimed at you, the post...again...just general statements.

Peace

dAlen

[edit on 5-3-2008 by dAlen]

Originally posted by dbates
So, what then? you're going to pick and choose the parts of the Bible you wish to disprove and then dismiss the rest with the wave of your hand?

Sadly, the majority of Christians do this quite frequently. (not picking on you).
They have a doctrine based on one or two verses, claim the Bibles is infallible but dont even know (or want to know) how the pieces fall together.

Again, each has their own path. Having been a missionary myself, I could now say that Im a missionary to the evangelical Christian...but that would be counter productive. I have come to the realization that no one...period...can change anyone else mind about anything. We share that which the other person already knows inside, and then they do what they need to do with it.

Peace

dAlen

Originally posted by Master_Wii
A researcher at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem claims in a recent study that mind-altering substances were regularly used during religious rites from biblical times performed by Israelites. Professor Benny Shanon said of Moses on Mt. Sinai:

What would be interesting is to bring in more Israeli scholarship (secular and religious) on this matter. You may find it harder to get a 'written' doc from a rabbi (at least orthodox) saying this...but dont think its impossible. (Im sure you can get some reform...I say some...others would be worse than the orthodox on this).

But get some more research that is credible, and for most evangelicals...nothing will do short of their pastor coming out and telling them.

He (a persons pastor) can tell them to go fight in a war and they would/did.
Despite Genesis saying after the flood, "he who kills must be killed"...period.
And Jesus, "He who lives by the sword will die by the sword".

Sure we have lots of excuses why to ignore this...to pick and choose, as one poster said. But it says it clear enough for me, and its quite in context.
[History shows that killing doesnt stop anything...but life. Wars stop when people put down the guns.]

Good post. Reminds me of the thread Tryptamines & God which got thrown into R.A.T.S. here at ATS.
It had a bit of research along the same lines as here...just a bit more info as the thread is older.

Peace

dAlen

[edit on 5-3-2008 by dAlen]

Originally posted by dAlen
He (a persons pastor) can tell them to go fight in a war and they would/did.
Despite Genesis saying after the flood, "he who kills must be killed"...period.

That has everything to do with motive and intent. If you hit someone with your car while changing the radio station, that's not murder. If you wait for them and run them down it is. God always looks at our thoughts and intentions along with our actions.

I guess it would be more helpful if we specified (for arguements sake) that only the events such as speaking to God, seeing a chariot of fire, etc. were due to hallucinating. Still that doesn't feel right since you can't explain Moses reminding the Israelites about the Red sea crossing with hallucinations. To buy into this line of thought you'll have to throw out or dismiss and downgrade all supernatural events in the Bible. I mean if God is truely able to part the Red sea and be a pillar of cloud by day and a pillar of fire by night, why couldn't he speak to Moses audibly or write on a stone tablet?

Remember, while the Israelites were in the wilderness God spoke to the entire nation audibly at the same time.

Exodus 19 & 20
19:9 The LORD said to Moses, "I am going to come to you in a dense cloud, so that the people will hear me speaking with you and will always put their trust in you." Then Moses told the LORD what the people had said.

20:18 They stayed at a distance 19 and said to Moses, "Speak to us yourself and we will listen. But do not have God speak to us or we will die."

So the entire nation of people had this experience. That can't be attributed to pot or '___'. Everyone had the same visual and audible experience and they all agreed that God should only speak to Moses. Does that sound like a true drug experience? Would everyone have had the same visual experience and thoughts about what was happening if they were all strung out on something? That doesn't seem likely.

From that point on God only spoke directly to Moses. I could keep going on and on with recorded experiences that would exclude drugs. We could talk about how Moses' face glowed after he recieved the Ten Commandments. So much so that everyone was afraid of him.

My point is simply that while some details about Moses might lend themself to the notion that the experience was drug induced, others just as dramatic or more dramatic do not. So in the end, we either either have to pick and choose what was drug induced and dismiss the rest, or simply believe that none of the above was drug induced. Of course the choice is yours but if you follow this path the Bible will simply be a pack of tall tales mixed with stories that some people had while they were tripping. The first edition of High Times magazine.

[edit on 5-3-2008 by dbates]

He, it could very well be that this is the truth.

I mean, i can totally imagine someone hallucinating a "burning taking bush"
Or seeing "a stick turn to a snake". Or thinking you "can walk on water", part the seas, ...etc

In a lot of cultures , psychosomatic drugs were/are used to connect to the "spiritworld" (ever heared about the use of iboga, peyote cactus,...Etc )

Face it: There are more then a few unexplainable, paranormal/magic events in the bible for which this would be a fitting and acceptable explanation.

It sure makes more sense to me then the only retort most people here have ie: "god did it" ...