The Grand Illusion

Brilliant thread AD, S&F for you.

I'm in the middle of some research myself at the moment, as soon as i have time i will digest your post in it's entirety and hopefully have something to add.
Again well done, if only everyone put the time and effort into their threads that you obviously have.

mojo.

reply to post by mojo4sale


Thanks Mojo..and definitely thank you for helping me with my research on the ancient civilizations.
I'm not going to respond to each individual member who has posted..except to say that Iam glad I have provoked thought for all of you.
Iam aware that many are quite happy with their lives as is, and the term "sheep" is simply a label like any other of the many that we are subject to daily.
To each their own..and whatever makes you happy..etc. Of course we all must conform to society right now whether we wish to or not. Some of us are just more willing to question things than others. I may have to pretend to live like an ignorant sheeple...
But they are not going to scare me with any tactics...and no one..ever..is going to put a ball and chain on my mind. My mind is free to think and explore the world however I want to.
The truth will come out eventually..whether Iam correct in my theory or not.
All it's going to take is for enough people to stand up and demand answers.
Without fear.

Very interesting posts and quite a "grand" theory that connects several strange anomalies in this world. I can't say that I think all of it is true, but it is thought provoking. I have also considered that many things that people see in the skies are possibly time machines. If you think about it, there have been sighting at just about every event in history including the first landing on the Moon, 9/11, and many others. I have considered that maybe they are from the future and witnessing the event that they know is going to happen, but don't try to interfere.

However, the idea that we are all controlled with fear to live our mundane lives the way we do is hard to swallow. Let me ask this. If all of a sudden we were freed from all the control and fear that is controlling us, what would we do?

How would our lives be different? What would we be doing that we don't do now? I ask this in all honesty, because I am curious to hear your responses.

ORIGINALLY POSTED BY HAL9000

"However, the idea that we are all controlled with fear to live our mundane lives the way we do is hard to swallow. Let me ask this. If all of a sudden we were freed from all the control and fear that is controlling us, what would we do?

How would our lives be different? What would we be doing that we don't do now? I ask this in all honesty, because I am curious to hear your responses."

Honestly, out of all that...the living our lives in fear was the only thing you found difficult to believe?

Hal, have you really looked at your life..and all of us in society, and realized how much of what we do is ruled by our fears?
Why don't most of us do what we really want to in life?
Why don't we stand up for ourselves?
Why don't we not just demand changes when we don't like what is going on..but actually change it?
Borders on vigilante, I realize. However..if you look at it that way..that in itself is a form of control.
"My gosh, we can't let the masses take control of their own lives! There would be mass chaos! They know not how to run things! Let us worry about all that for you, and you just work, pro-create..and pay your mortgage".

I myself Hal, can only speculate what the world would be like if we knew the truth and all the right answers.I can say, that there would no longer be an elite controlling over us. However..I do not believe in a utopian society either.
Trust me..I have many unanswered questions myself. I certainly don't claim to know all and be serving it up on a silver platter. But I will dig deeper, and I will find answers to my satisfaction, and I won't stop till I do.
The only constant in my human experience is that Iam capable of thought till the day I die...and I'm not going to waste that. If when I leave this existence for whatever comes after it, all I can take with me is knowledge and experience and I plan to cram as much of that in as possible.

The clock of life is wound but once, and no man has the power
To tell just when the hands will stop, at late or early hour
Live, love, and toil with a will
Place no faith in tomorrow, for the clock may then be still.

I doubt man is behind the UFO phenomena. UFOs can do stuff so far and above beyond typical human technology that one really must ask themselves *if* all UFOs are created by man...why is man, even the elites, wasting so much time and energy with the subjugation of one puny planet, when the stars await?

Originally posted by AccessDenied
Honestly, out of all that...the living our lives in fear was the only thing you found difficult to believe?

I would agree that the US government uses fear as a tool to gain support for their own agenda, but they do not use fear of aliens as part of that plan. If what I think your saying that fear is used to cover-up they are doing, then I could see your point, but I fail to see the connection and the jump to the conclusion that fear is what keeps us under their control. I just think that that part of your theory is unrelated to the others. The idea that UFOs are man-made and that anti-gravity and time travel is possible is no surprise. I said earlier, I thought it was a possible explanation, although I think if there were Germans living in Brazil with advanced technology, we would have discovered that by now.

The part about abductions is also another subject that I have a problem with, because like you I don’t think that aliens are doing it. I just also don’t think it is being done by anyone else either. I think there have been real cases of abduction, but again, if abductions were really happening as often as people say, it wouldn’t be so difficult to prove.

The part of your posts I especially liked was the spirits appearing between dimensions and trapped in time. I don’t believe in ghosts myself, because I have never seen one, but many people I know have said they have. I would like to see one as I would also like to see a UFO. I personally don’t fear aliens or ghosts, in fact I would love to see either one. Many people on ATS believe just the opposite that aliens are our friends are here to help. What about those people?

The reason why I think the idea that we are controlled by fear is not related because I don't see how that even if everything you said was true, and everyone found out about it and the elite were exposed, would our lives really be any different?

Originally posted by AccessDenied
Hal, have you really looked at your life..and all of us in society, and realized how much of what we do is ruled by our fears?
Why don't most of us do what we really want to in life?

Yes, I have thought about how society functions, and I don’t think that fear is the reason that people go along with the rules that are set by society. They are there for the common good of people. If these rules did not exist, everyone would just do whatever they please and there wouldn’t be any society or civilization for that matter.

I think some of us take for granted the things that are provided to us that are easy to overlook. Everything we have is there by the hard work of someone else. All the services and utilities that we take for granted are there because yes, someone is making money on it, but if they didn’t those services would not be there. If everyone only did just what they want, no goals would be reached and there would be no accomplishments by anyone. Society and civilization is organization, and when people organize for a common goal, those goals are bigger and better than anyone person can accomplish on their own.

People don’t cooperate out of fear, they cooperate because it benefits them as well as everyone.

If this is not what you meant, then please elaborate.

Why don't we stand up for ourselves?
Why don't we not just demand changes when we don't like what is going on..but actually change it?

I agree that there are many things that need changed after this administration leaves, and that will happen in due time. If you are referring to something more like a revolution, then I suggest taking a look at what happens when a government in some country like in Africa is ousted. The country usually winds up being worse off than before.

"My gosh, we can't let the masses take control of their own lives! There would be mass chaos! They know not how to run things! Let us worry about all that for you, and you just work, pro-create..and pay your mortgage".

I work not only to make money, but I like my job. I know not everyone is happy with his or her job, but that gives you incentive to improve yourself to get that job you do want. If you simply just don’t want to work at all, then that is another matter. If everyone did that, then yes chaos would overcome us and then you would wish things were back the way they are now working that lousy job you used to have.

I myself Hal, can only speculate what the world would be like if we knew the truth and all the right answers.I can say, that there would no longer be an elite controlling over us. However..I do not believe in a utopian society either.

Trust me..I have many unanswered questions myself. I certainly don't claim to know all and be serving it up on a silver platter. But I will dig deeper, and I will find answers to my satisfaction, and I won't stop till I do.

I am not trying to discourage you in any way. I also believe we should question everything, but you have to look at it from both sides, and I am only trying to help by asking these questions. Have you considered that if you are wrong about this theory, then aren’t you also guilty of creating an unnecessary fear of a time traveling ruling elite?

Originally posted by AccessDenied
ORIGINALLY POSTED BY HAL9000
Hal, have you really looked at your life..and all of us in society, and realized how much of what we do is ruled by our fears?
Why don't most of us do what we really want to in life?
Why don't we stand up for ourselves?
Why don't we not just demand changes when we don't like what is going on..but actually change it?

I understand where you are coming from but from my perspective the majority of people i know make are not ruled by fear but driven by love. The Decisions thay make are based on the desire to see the best outcome for them and their families......and consequently their communities. Now i understand that there are those that are purely in it for themselves and seek to influence and control others, but when in the history of man has this been different. I think it is perhaps the fear of the unknown that is usettling the most....and we know what that has led to, religions, governments and conspiracy and when they don't provide the answers?.......more fear?.
Can we ever know it all. Most conspiracy theories say that Govt's withhold evidence of" this" proof or "that" knowledge out of fear that we can not handle it and society in general will experience chaos.......is this a bad thing that the people we decide should lead us choose to avoid chaos.
I think we need to focus on the nature of humanity as an answer to this question, we simply cannot survive with individual autonomy as the rule(as much as i would like it) as decision need to made regarding the many. We all have our view of the Ideal World for us all, But they are all Individual views. So we organise a system that tries to make the best decision, the hard choices. Is it perfect, no. Is it corruptable yes, can it be used against us.....it has and will be.......it is not unlike the heart of any human.

reply to post by Hal9000


Hal, number one, I never stated that this theory only applies to the United States. I live in Canada.
I believe fear of aliens is used to cover up the agenda they have as to the real reason behind UFO's. There can be more than one agenda all connected to the elite but using the same premise over us. Fear keeps us under control in many ways and if you fail to see that then it is working well.
What happens if you lose your job? Your house? Don't pay your taxes? Are diagnosed with a serious illness?
How would you react if you were being investigated by the agencies of your country for your posts on ATS?
Would you have fear of that?
Have you ever said..
"I can't do that !" Because you were afraid of what would happen if you did?

As for those who claim to be in touch with aliens, I have already stated how I feel about abductions. That would be an entire new thread to debate about and I won't derail this one for that.

I also stated how I can only imagine how the world would be different with no elite running the show. However, you stated that without rules everyone would just do as they pleased and there would be no society or civilization.
I disagree. No, there would be no Utopia. But new rules would be established in time. We are intelligent enough to do that I believe. But do you really believe that civilization cannot survive without an elite class ruling over us?
If you do..then my theory is correct.

I agree with you that when people organize for a common goal great accomplishments can be made. We are capable of doing this on our own.
However, at present..fear rules over all those services and utilities we take for granted because we fear losing them.

My statement about working, pro-creating, and paying the mortgage was not meant that people should not work. Far from it! I meant that it is the illusion that it has been made the sole focus of our lives so that we don't have time or energy to question what is really going on. In essence we have handed all that over to those above us to worry about because they have made us to busy to focus on it.

As for my theory, I never claimed to be right or wrong. I was thinking aloud.
I don't see it as creating an unnecessary fear. I see it as the beginning of asking the right questions.

Hal9000- Thank you for provoking my thoughts.

Originally posted by chromatico
I doubt man is behind the UFO phenomena. UFOs can do stuff so far and above beyond typical human technology that one really must ask themselves *if* all UFOs are created by man...why is man, even the elites, wasting so much time and energy with the subjugation of one puny planet, when the stars await?

Hence my point exactly. You believe what you are told to believe, and have very little faith in the human race.
I suggest you read the links in the beginning of this thread.

I have always been of the opinion that coherent, concise and well researched articles are far more thought provoking, than badly written individual experiences, that are riddled with spelling and grammatical errors. I must therefore applaud your work and the time that went into it.

This is certainly one of the more believeable theories, the main problem (as always with such theories) being the lack of solid evidence, that would prove the existence of such technology. There must thousands of people involved in such schemes, if only one would find a use for their conscience, grow some cojones and disclose the truth.

I suppose in reality, we would not even need to see the technology for ourselves, just proof that such things could be created, (via scientific evidence) would be sufficient. If we knew for certain that such things were possible, it wouldn't take a brain surgeon to join the dots. Perhaps one day a quantum physics student will make a breakthrough and the information will get to the right people before the flow is stopped.

We live in hope.

[edit on 24-2-2008 by mrmanuva]

Once again another good thread ends up in skunkworks. this pattern is exposing them far more than they realize

Originally posted by HuntaXX
Once again another good thread ends up in skunkworks. this pattern is exposing them far more than they realize

I originally posted this thread in skunkworks because it is a speculative theory.
But thank you for saying it is a good thread.

Originally posted by mrmanuva
I have always been of the opinion that coherent, concise and well researched articles are far more thought provoking, than badly written individual experiences, that are riddled with spelling and grammatical errors. I must therefore applaud your work and the time that went into it.

This is certainly one of the more believeable theories, the main problem (as always with such theories) being the lack of solid evidence, that would prove the existence of such technology. There must thousands of people involved in such schemes, if only one would find a use for their conscience, grow some cojones and disclose the truth.

I suppose in reality, we would not even need to see the technology for ourselves, just proof that such things could be created, (via scientific evidence) would be sufficient. If we knew for certain that such things were possible, it wouldn't take a brain surgeon to join the dots. Perhaps one day a quantum physics student will make a breakthrough and the information will get to the right people before the flow is stopped.

We live in hope.

[edit on 24-2-2008 by mrmanuva]

I thank you for your comment..and I whole heartedly agree. However even if a student did make a breakthrough...University professors can be sheepdogs as well.

Humans have accomplished so much technologically but there are still so may gaps between theory and practice. We don't feed people to the lions anymore literally, but we haven't moved much beyond that as a society.

This posting is what this site should be about, making people think. You have my mind going. Damn, not going to be good for much else today...

an absolutely Fantastic thread.

Never looked at flying saucers in that way but surely there must be people from other solar systems coming here?.

Originally posted by AccessDenied
I believe fear of aliens is used to cover up the agenda they have as to the real reason behind UFO's. There can be more than one agenda all connected to the elite but using the same premise over us.

If they did have the ability to travel through time and this technology was gained recently (since the forties) then there would be no need to fly around at this time, since they come from our time. That is why I think if UFOs are traveling through time, then they come from a different time than our own. Also if they had this technology now, they would also have the ability to do it secretly and we wouldn’t even know about it.

I do think there is a cover-up of UFO sightings, just not in the same way. Take the recent Stevensville sighting as an example. I have to wonder why are witnesses being intimidated by the Air Force to keep quiet about the sighting. This leads me to believe it was a secret military aircraft that for some reason is being flown over a populated area. I don’t understand why they would do that, but if they could also travel in time, why wouldn’t they go back and fix it so that no one would see it, or use a cloaking device as described in one of your videos? If they had this ability, then IMHO, we would not even be speculating about UFOs because we wouldn’t be seeing them.

Fear keeps us under control in many ways and if you fail to see that then it is working well.

I don’t see how not being afraid is proof that fear is being used to control us.

What happens if you lose your job? Your house? Don't pay your taxes? Are diagnosed with a serious illness?
How would you react if you were being investigated by the agencies of your country for your posts on ATS?
Would you have fear of that?
Have you ever said..
"I can't do that !" Because you were afraid of what would happen if you did?

I really think you have this wrong. I don’t pay my mortgage because of the fear of loosing my house. I pay my mortgage because I agreed to when I decided to buy my house. No one intimidated me into buying it, and I knew full well that I would have to pay the mortgage before I agreed to it. I also have the option to sell my house if I wanted to and there is no reason to be afraid of anything. I also have the same freedom when it comes to my job. I go to work because I agreed to take the job and if I want I could quit.

Paying taxes is part of living in a society that provides things for people and if we didn’t we would not have the high standard of living we have. All the roads we drive on and utilities that we use improve our standard of living. They would not be there if we didn’t pay for them.

If we didn't pay taxes, then you can bet our pay would be adjusted. The amount we make is adjusted higher because we pay taxes. So in a sense the corporation I work for is paying my taxes for me. Take it further and it is really the corporations that pay for most of the cost of government. That is why it is wrong to employ illegal aliens. It is not the migrant workers fault but the employer who is paying them under the table. Sorry if I am going to far off topic.

If you are suggesting that we can do without some of these luxuries, that would be true, but life would be harder than it is. With the number of people on the planet that we have and we all had to fend for ourselves, may of us would starve and freeze to death not to mention that resources would become even more scarce because utilities are more efficient than if everyone were to heat their own homes or generate their own power. That is the way it is and if you can think of a better way, then I am all ears.

But do you really believe that civilization cannot survive without an elite class ruling over us?
If you do..then my theory is correct.

Again, I don’t see how because I disagree with you that proves your theory. I didn’t say that we could not survive without a ruling elite. I just don’t think there is a common group of people all with a common agenda controlling everything. There are groups that do work together like here in the States, the Military Industrial Complex (MIC) that have an agenda to make war because it is profitable for them. They have gotten too big and have far too much influence. But if this group had the ability to travel through time, they would be in complete control over the entire world by now, but that is not how it is. We are still a world of many countries with various interests and different way of governing ourselves. I don’t see any proof of a single group of elites having control like you suggest.

My statement about working, pro-creating, and paying the mortgage was not meant that people should not work. Far from it! I meant that it is the illusion that it has been made the sole focus of our lives so that we don't have time or energy to question what is really going on. In essence we have handed all that over to those above us to worry about because they have made us to busy to focus on it.

You may think that we are so busy with everyday life now, but how is this different than in the past? We have more free time now than at anytime in the past.

I understand that you believe that there should be a better more humane way for us to get along without a class of elites. I would agree with you, but the reason why there are people like this is due to human nature. Every once in a while we do need to level the playing field for everyone. This has happened many times in the past and I’m sure it will happen again in the future. But for some reason a ruling class always comes back into power. Why do you think this keeps happening? It is because of human nature.

As before I am not trying to to say your theory is all wrong. There are just a few holes that I see, and maybe there are things I can't see as you say. It is still an interesting idea, and I applaud your efforts.

edit: BTW, for anyone interested in time travel, one of the best movies I like about it is Millennium. If you haven't seen it, check it out.

[edit on 2/24/2008 by Hal9000]

reply to post by Hal9000


Well then Hal, we agree to disagree. I have provoked your thoughts and you have provoked mine. But we obviously don't see eye to eye. You have made some valid points and I do understand your view, but I don't happen to agree with it.
Thank you for contributing your thoughts, and geez, making me sound like John Lear...
AccessDenied

Originally posted by iraqvet68
Humans have accomplished so much technologically but there are still so may gaps between theory and practice. We don't feed people to the lions anymore literally, but we haven't moved much beyond that as a society.

This posting is what this site should be about, making people think. You have my mind going. Damn, not going to be good for much else today...

Thank you. That was the intention. Not just to serve up a wealth of answers just get the gears churning.
Putting this together took up a good few weeks of my time..and I assure you I wasn't much good for anything else during that time.

Ancient man knew stuff. He had a knowledge of the Universe that he really shouldn't have possessed in his time. He was able do feats that to this day, modern man, cannot figure out easily. If at all. Where did this knowledge come from in the stone age. When men were still fighting with slings and stones, bows and arrows, spears and clubs, he could move 500 ton blocks of stone with ease. He could map the stars, and planets, and pointed to them and named Gods that dwelled there. Why was man obsessed with knowledge of flight, and dreamed of soaring to the heavens?
Could it have been that he saw his Gods come and go, thru the air? How did early man know advanced mathmatics, and how to measure things accurately? What possessed him to do this? KNOWLEDGE of SCIENCE! Who taught him this? And Why?
The appearence of Cro-Magnon man is still an anomoly that todays scientist cannot answer. His sudden appearence, and then the subsequent rubbing out of all other lineages of mans assent from the apes, is perplexing and a mystery. Where did Cro-Magnon come from? Why was this NEW HUMAN so advanced? He could out think, out wit, and out fight/kill
any predecessor or prey. He became "King of the Hill" because of his brain power. Is Cro-Magnon a hybrid? Is he the chink in the chain, that broke the trail of human evolution?
Today, why does the Vatican, advocate not messing around with ET? What do their secret libraries contain, that we don't know?
Why did the Sumarians, and the Mayans carve in stone as a permanent record, that the world faces total annhilation begining around 2012? What did they know, that we just now are rediscovering? Who, suppressed this knowledge for so long? Was it the JEWS, and the Romans? Was it the early Christian movement? Was Jesus, himself, an offspring of other worldly intervention? Some say he was GOD, incarnated as a man. I believe he was PERFECTED MAN, who was then educated in sciences and laws of nature totally unknown to the commoner. Jesus knew stuff, he just couldn't really reveal at his time. It was too hot, too advanced, too scary! Thus, he tried a new way to persuade men to think differently, and too change their bad self destructive habits. Jesus did things men couldn't fathom. He said things they could hardly interpret. It got out of hand, and men made him a Messiah. Rome, the offical power brokers at the time, took notice... It cost him his life. Had Jesus lived to be 200 years old or more, imagine how the world would be different today? The experiment of this man and his time failed. Humans weren't ready. Corruption was and is too great a foe.
Today again, what is going on behind our backs? What did the Soviets,British, and Americans capture with the fall of NAZI Germany?
What secret programs and Ultra-Deep Science projects were spirited out of Germany? Did the Germans, actually have contact with another race of
beings, such as the Vrill? Is Hitler really dead? or has he been reincarnated via his sperm, cells, DNA? I doubt it! But, the wonderfully out of this world sciences that Germany seemed to be feeding off from, came from someone, and somewhere. They were to the 20th century, as the Sumarians, and the Egyptians, were to their time on Earth. Too advanced!
Too Para-Normal! The German War Machines Techno-Sciences were akin to being the new Cro-Magnon Man on Earth ready to take over. The New Messiah come again. It nearly succeeded!
So,who has the staff of miracles now? Who is tapped into a realm of VooDoo secret alien sciences now? What is in store for Mankind? Is it good? Or is it BAD? My bet is; it is the stuff of nightmares. I am convinced, we are facing something, heretofore, unimaginable. It isn't redemtion, or salvation. NO! The Concentration Camps, and ovens of Auchwitz will look like vacation destinations, and SunTanning-Beds, compared to what is coming. Orwell's 1984, we will beg for. I hope I am dead, before "NEW MAN" again unleashes his new found sciences. Pray it doesn't happen!

reply to post by UFOBountyHunter


WOW! JUST WOW!
Excellent post. You delved even deeper. Brought up many more questions that need answers. Got my gears really churning now.
For the most part, I totally agree with you. That being said, Iam not a religious person, and I avoided stating that in my opening posts. It is my belief that we are being manipulated by both church and state all over the planet, but more so western society. How unbelievably easy it is for the lives of many to be controlled by fear with the use of a single book, and an entire system that supports it.