Contrails, understanding why they arent chemtrails

Yes, we will. As he just said it has nothing whatsoever to do with temp on the ground. You can have an 80 degree day on the ground, but at altitude, where the air is much thinner, it's -50C. The British Airways flight that recently crashed on landing was flying through temps as low as -76C at altitude.

Originally posted by Maya432
ok
my next question

what about in the heat of the summer?
will we still see contrails that stay and spread out?

Yep they will.

Like I said, it depends on the upper air mositure and temperature not the surface temperature. All you need is at least a temperature at -59.8 degrees celsius, which is found at around 26,000ft to 30,000ft on average, which coincidently is the same height at which an airplanes crusing altitude is. Temperature decreases with height, so it is much colder at 30,000ft at all times of the year, be it summer or winter.

The reason they spread out is due to mositure and dispersion. If it is extremely moist the contrail water vapour will form larger and larger ice crystals through a process called supersaturation. The more water molecules, the thicker and larger the trail can expand. The winds at these heights are called the jetstream. The jetstream has winds in excess of 200mph and anything caught in it can be dispersed over a large area. So water molecules moving over a large area in high winds, gather up more water molecules, increasing the volume of ice, therefore, producing a nice layer of cirrostratus cloud over the sky

ok thank you for your time in answering these questions.
both essan and oz.
I`m still unsure myself...but you guys are the experts and
I`m just a concerned citizen .

Originally posted by Maya432
ok thank you for your time in answering these questions.
both essan and oz.
I`m still unsure myself...but you guys are the experts and
I`m just a concerned citizen .

You are welcome

Dont let people scaremonger you into believing that the government is spraying stuff on us. Continue to make your own judgement

Any other questions just let us know

reply to post by OzWeatherman


I think a scientist recognised by the United Nations like Dr. Rosalie Bertell is the sort of expert who trumps any of those who try to state that the chemtrails are merely persistent contrails.

As far as the one link I gave you regarding Direct, Semi-Direct, and Indirect Aerosol Air Campaigns, that was simply to illustrate one of many, many items on the internet about these campaigns which include the direct dispersal of substances into the atmosphere and then measuring them from terrestrial locations as well as upper level atmospheric sampling.

I am no expert on this but my question is why to the patterns appear in some countries as a criss cross across the sky?

It is my opinion that commercial aircraft have to fly in strict corridoors / flight patterns around airports. So if these craft were generating the problem it would all be coming from the one area and not spread out in a pattern of coverage across the sky.

I do not think they are caused by the average commercial jumbo jet. That is why the questions get asked.

Dr. Rosalie Bertell ??

see guys.....this is just what i`m talking about.

are these professionals
a) delusional
b) purposely releasing dis-information/scaremonging
c) telling the truth

reply to post by Cyber_Wasp


This is a 24 hour period over the US in 2006. In 2006 air travel numbers were DOWN from Pre-911 days. Tell me how you're NOT going to have criss crossing patterns and every other pattern seen by chemtrail believers.

www.edwardtufte.com...

Very nice indeed. You did a great summarization to exclude people who see a plane emitting a trail and believe it to be a chem trail. The main difference being Chem Trails will blanket the entire sky after sitting for a while, while con-trails evaporate.

I hope you didn't intend to completely debunk chem trails however with this thread, you will have to flatten the earth for that to happen.

It's just like aliens and ufos you know - seeing is believing. If you never see the true glory of a grid lined sky with 5 more jets in plain sight you would probably never believe it. That's how I was too at one point until I discovered them on my own.

A lot of things on this planet are like that, and its good to be a non-believer most of the time. Keeps you out of trouble from falsehood. Really scary to find out the truth sometimes, especially with chemtrails. If I could go back to not believing I probably would.

Except that contrails do that too. If you read WWII accounts of B-17 crews, they would have to fly different routes back to England, because of their own contrails. One of their jokes was that they were changing the weather over Europe because of their contrails, and how they'd linger for hours.

Originally posted by blowfishdl
The main difference being Chem Trails will blanket the entire sky after sitting for a while, while con-trails evaporate.

What?

Explain to me how hot water vapour evaporates at -60 degrees celsius?

All my meteorological training and thermodynamics cant explain it?

So explain

Originally posted by Maya432
Dr. Rosalie Bertell ??

see guys.....this is just what i`m talking about.

are these professionals
a) delusional
b) purposely releasing dis-information/scaremonging
c) telling the truth

Dr Bertell has a PHd in biometrics, not meteorology. If she had a met degree I would be keen to listen. She is also a nun and got her degree from the catholic university of America. What is strange is that according to you guys she is this great wonderful scientist.......yet for some reason she didnt make lthe ist of notable CUA alumni? Bit strange for someone who founded the International Institute of Concern for Public Health (IICPH). Wonder why she isnt recognised?

And she was only recognised by the United Nations for her work on Nuclear and radioactive pollution.....not HAARP or chemtrails

reply to post by OzWeatherman


It would appear that Dr. Bertell is a source of some discomfort for you.

She is best known for building the case for the people of Bhopal, India to have the scientific data necessary to proceed with court action after the disaster there.

Here research in Planet Earth: the Latest Weapon of War is exceptional and without peer. She is eminently qualified to speak on HAARP, chemtrails, military-industrial negligence and a host of other issues.

Here is a link to the United Nations Environmental Programme website and a page about Dr. Bertell and her book Planet Earth: the Latest Weapon of War:
www.global500.org...

[edit on 19/2/08 by Pellevoisin]

Originally posted by Pellevoisin
reply to post by OzWeatherman

 

It would appear that Dr. Bertell is a source of some discomfort for you.

She is best known for building the case for the people of Bhopal, India to have the scientific data necessary to proceed with court action after the disaster there.

I know and I believe that the work she has done there is exceptional. She isnt a source for discomfort of me at all

Here research in Planet Earth: the Latest Weapon of War is exceptional and without peer. She is eminently qualified to speak on HAARP, chemtrails, military-industrial negligence and a host of other issues.

I will have to look more deeply into this as I am qualified to (being a met and all).

Originally posted by OzWeatherman

Ok, please explain how they are different.

.

Forget the fact that they are persistent. Forget the fact that they form into cloud cover that goes from horizon to horizon.

The only way to tell the difference is if you see one on the horizon or starting from the horizon and going across the sky. This is what caught my attention back in 1999, being an aircraft buff and having a lot of pilots in my family I knew what contrails looked like because since I was a child I was always looking to the sky to spot aircraft. My dad used to teach me all the different Mgfs. and models, he was a parachutist and spent time in Korea in the 82nd Airborne. He knew airplanes. Now I know them better than he did.

I am not some CT that picked this up from the net.

One summer I looked up at the sky to spot some planes and thought WTF is going on with those contrails? I couldn't figure out what changed, but when you look at the sky everyday since you can remember, you notice the difference right away. They were HUGE and a of them on the horizon. I never in my life saw a contrail at the horizon line, but at the time I didn't know why.

You see to be at the altitude it takes to make a contrail (about 26-28,000 feet and above depending on the weather) it will be too far away to be seen on the horizon with the human eye. The only way to be able to see something at the horizon it needs to be about half that altitude (its all about trigonometry) so this means that if you see a contrail at the horizon line its altitude is too low to form a contrail therefore it has to be something else besides water vapor.

This is what the difference was for me that day, the first time I witnessed a chemtrail. This is what most laymen are seeing but do not understand exactly what is different.

reply to ozweatherman: I don't know. There are a lot of questions left unanswered, and a lot of blanket statements on how it can't be a chemtrail. I get antsy when people start spouting how they are knowledgeable and no one else is because "they" have a "degree" for what it is worth.

Ok, you have a degree in meteorology. Exactly how good are you? What position do you hold in the working world? I know many people who have degrees, and still don't know their stuff.

Yet this lady also as a degree with in basically the same field, and yet you put on a mightier than thou attitude. You yourself do not know if she put in her own personal studies in meteorology, or even took courses in meteorology even though she didn't major or minor in meteorology. Neither do you know if a meteorologist she might have worked with in one capacity or another taught her about meteorology.

No, you don't have to have a degree to know your stuff either. Yes, I know people who don't have degrees who know more than people who do have degrees. Go figure.

Take every thing with a grain of salt, especially those who flaunt their knowledge. It is better to let others boast of your knowledge than to do the boasting yourself.

[edit on 19-2-2008 by Mystery_Lady]

Originally posted by LoneGunMan
You see to be at the altitude it takes to make a contrail (about 26-28,000 feet and above depending on the weather) it will be too far away to be seen on the horizon with the human eye. The only way to be able to see something at the horizon it needs to be about half that altitude (its all about trigonometry) so this means that if you see a contrail at the horizon line its altitude is too low to form a contrail therefore it has to be something else besides water vapor.

I'm sorry for laughing but that is the most ridiculous thing I have heard in a long time. Umm....where in the world did you get that from? I seriously want to know.


**
I won't repeat all the stuff I have written in the other thread except to say....even if they were chemtrails, spreading them is completely pointless and the people doing it must be the stupidest people on earth? These supposed chemtails form at a level in which if there are chemicals being released, they would never reach the ground. Or if they did, it would be at a level already inhabitable to humans. Oh and not to mention winds would carry the chemicals hundreds of miles away. Again, making it completely pointless.

As I stated in the other thread, the chemtrail theory is a new conspiracy theory started by Art Bell for the sole purpose of scaring his followers. There is no basis/proof/grounds whatsoever for this theory.

Originally posted by ThatsJustWeird

I'm sorry for laughing but that is the most ridiculous thing I have heard in a long time. Umm....where in the world did you get that from? I seriously want to know.

People always laugh when they are ignorant to facts.

You cannot see through that much atmosphere. When you are looking straight up at an object that is flying at 28,000 feet it is 28,000 feet away. You are not understanding at all how this works. That same aircraft at 28,000 feet to be seen at the horizon would have to be about 250 miles away. This is a mathematical fact. The human eye can only see through about 100 miles of atmosphere, this is why you do not see any stars on the horizon line also. It is all about the angle you are looking through the atmosphere.

Take two different sized poles. One is 50 feet tall and the other is 100 feet tall. If you are driving towards it in your car you will see the 100 foot tall pole before you see the 50 foot tall pole. This is because the earth is round (obviously you had not realized this yet ) sorry I didn't mean to laugh.

That is a very simplified way of explaining to you how this works. Take a 28,000 foot pole and a 14,000 thousand foot pole. To see only the very top of that pole at the horizon it has to be about 250 miles away. The 14,000 foot pole only needs to be about 120 miles away.

Was that clear enough for you? You can only see through about 100 miles through the atmosphere. So in order to see a 28,000 foot contrail at the horizon line it needs to be about 250 miles away. This is why you cant see it, so if it is there it is at an altitude that is too low to form a contrail.

This is a mathematical fact.

Originally posted by LoneGunMan

Originally posted by OzWeatherman

Ok, please explain how they are different.

The only way to tell the difference is if you see one on the horizon or starting from the horizon and going across the sky.

Being from a pilot background, you should/may know of cirrostratus types five and six. Cirrostratus type six is a layer of cirrostratus, increasing from the horizon and exceeding 45 degree elevation. Cirrostratus type five, is a layer of cirrostratus increasing from the horizon but not exceeding 45 degree elevation. Both may be seen with cirrus, which can be formed with contrails. Both are reported in synoptic observations daily over the world.

Originally posted by Mystery_Lady
reply to ozweatherman: I don't know. There are a lot of questions left unanswered, and a lot of blanket statements on how it can't be a chemtrail. I get antsy when people start spouting how they are knowledgeable and no one else is because "they" have a "degree" for what it is worth.

Was I boasting? Sorry I didnt realise, I thought I was just informing to show people that I didnt just do a google search on contrail formations.

So again, apologies

Ok, you have a degree in meteorology. Exactly how good are you? What position do you hold in the working world? I know many people who have degrees, and still don't know their stuff.

Good enough to work for the Australian Bureau of Meteorology

Yet this lady also as a degree with in basically the same field, and yet you put on a mightier than thou attitude.

No I didnt

I dont understand where I said I was better than her. I didnt even compare myself to her. I just said she doesnt have a met degree

You yourself do not know if she put in her own personal studies in meteorology, or even took courses in meteorology even though she didn't major or minor in meteorology. Neither do you know if a meteorologist she might have worked with in one capacity or another taught her about meteorology.

Which I am doing a bit of digging into to see if she has a basis for her arguments, which I explained before on a post

No, you don't have to have a degree to know your stuff either. Yes, I know people who don't have degrees who know more than people who do have degrees. Go figure

I know. I have a degree in environmental science, yet work as a met. After finishing my degree I was accepted onto the met course (where specialist training is recieved) with the Bureau of Meteorology.

Take every thing with a grain of salt, especially those who flaunt their knowledge. It is better to let others boast of your knowledge than to do the boasting yourself.

Just to reiterate, I was not boasting and I apologise if I appeared to be. I have not once said I know more than anyone that is posting on this thread