Is there any military or police members here who can answer this question?

double post

[edit on 25-2-2008 by BlueRaja]

reply to post by jackinthebox


"If I have said anything that is inaccurate about your background or experience, I stand corrected. "

from my previous response.

reply to post by BlueRaja


Not exactly an honorable admission of wrongdoing.

Let's just leave it at that then, and stick to the topic from now on.

reply to post by jackinthebox


If I have presumed anything about your background that is inaccurate, I apologize. How's that?

reply to post by capgrup


The "impetus,"????? What do you mean by that? If people are protesting for a good cause, how is that an impetus for the Guard to open fire and kill innocent people?

People have a right to protest, without having to come under harm for doing so. If they are violent, then, yes, something should be done, but to fire on unnarmed citizens who are doing nothing but participating in a protest is the most un-American thing I have heard said in this thread, so far.

The people who fired those shots were murderers that should have been treated like any other killer in this country. Either a life sentence in prison or the death penalty.

Well, it seems that this discussion may have become moot on Valentine's Day.
N. American Army created without OK by Congress U.S., Canada military ink deal to fight domestic emergencies

reply to post by capgrup


I dated a man back in 1999/2000 that was a weekend warrior who also served in Viet Nam.

He loved his military weekends going out of town to play soldier. He had little regard for human life.

It was not long into the time I dated this man, that he described in detail some of what went on in Viet Nam.

When they had time off, they had little else to do while in Viet Nam, but to participate in massive amounts of alcohol and illegal substances to numb themselves, from the situation they were in. They would on occaisions, allegedly, told to me by this person, get into the hellicopters for joy rides after imbibing.(This person was a helicopter machine gunner) They would fly over rice patties, and use the women and children working there, for target practice. No sorrow in the innocents they were killing, only a bet, on who could knock off the most.

After what this person told me, I have no doubt that if given the choice, many people in America would be used for target practice, too, with little or no remorse, especially if orderd to.

If they can kill innocent women and children off in rice patties in another country, then they can kill whomever is at home, too!

reply to post by Enthralled Fan


A- I would take those anecdotes with a grain of salt.

B- There's a huge difference between a conscript military and a volunteer one, in terms of professionalism.

reply to post by BlueRaja

A- I would take those anecdotes with a grain of salt.

Why? Are you saying those things did not happen? Or that they don't matter anymore?

B- There's a huge difference between a conscript military and a volunteer one, in terms of professionalism.

I partially agree with this second point, but there are several problems with it. First, is that the standards are being lowered regulalry. Some thug from the ghetto who joined up for a paycheck and the chance to kill people without going to prison, will jump at the chance clear his weapon.

Second, even professionals will be hard pressed to determine right and wrong in the event of a civil uprising.

reply to post by BlueRaja


This person did not enlist. He signed up before he was drafted. He is not just an enlisted person anymore, but is now a person with "stars" on his lapel, so I tend to believe what he told me.

He has a purple heart, and other commendations.

If he made everything up he told me, then he should be out of the military on a discharge for mental problems.

He has no remorse for killing innocent women and children in Viet Nam, which leads me to believe, he would have no problem killing any innocent women and children, anywhere.

Try to make it out like he is not a military killing machine that knows no remorse. I know better, having had the real displeasure of this person go into graphic detail of his past, without my ever really wanting to know.

He told me what his mindset was, of his military experience. While I feel sorry for him, for what he went through, I can't express to you the actual gut wrenching, puking espisode I had after he described in detail what he did to women and children. Not all of the people they used for target practice died immediately. What they did, allegeldy, to some of the victims, made a killing an animal sound ethical.

You will never convince me otherwise, that the government doesn't breed these types of fellows that have no regard for human life. That being even yours, or any other American.

Hmmm...this post is interesting. First, I am ex-military, former active duty as a 95B and 11B, and currently employed full time as a law enforcement officer. So I would be the guy your all so "worried" about. Now with that...here is my short and simple answer to the OP.

I would never turn on my people for ANY government. WE THE PEOPLE founded and built this nation, NOT WE THE GOVERNMENT or I THE PRESIDENT!! So to ask/order me to fire on or round up my fellow American is unacceptable. No officer or soldier should ever be ok with that task.


Think about it like this.....If I was a soldier/cop who followed orders without question, and my next assignment was to begin imposing marshall law on..lets say..Savannah, GA....as I rounded up mothers, fathers, brothers and sisters, wives, husbands, etc....beating them, shooting them, arresting them, draggin them through the streets, imposing the governments will on them....WHO IS AND WHAT IS BEING DONE TO MY FAMILY???? And thats why it will be tough to turn true soldiers/cops on their own.

Originally posted by jackinthebox
reply to post by BlueRaja

 

A- I would take those anecdotes with a grain of salt.

Why? Are you saying those things did not happen? Or that they don't matter anymore?

Let's just say that I've heard some BS stories from vets, trying to sound like they were in very adventuruous circumstances(or in this instance committing war crimes).In all actuality, most vets who've really seen stuff don't talk about it with outsiders often, much less bragg about a war crime. Maybe this guy really was guilty of a war crime, but it's just as likely that he's guilty of being a jackass.

[edit on 25-2-2008 by BlueRaja]

Agree 100% blueraja, I am throwing up the BS flag on the guy with stars on his chest. Or the poster is making it up.....no way a soldier got all drunk, drove his chopper around and shot up a bunch of women and kids, and is still in the military with no repurcussions. Sheesh....people will believe or make up practically anything.
It's the lack of honor that is going to doom this country, not some NWO boogieman or national guardsmen run amock.

reply to post by BlueRaja


There were plenty of atrocities committed in Vietnam, but they were certainly highlighted in the media and in society at the time. People seemed to actually want to hear the horror tales told by the braggarts. Especially when it highlighted the views of the opposition to the war.

On the other hand, none of these crimes are acceptable. They do happen, regardless of the public perception of the actual proportions.

I don't think they should be "taken with a grain of salt" but I do see your point.

But back on the other hand again, even if this supposdly starred officer did not do these things, I still question the motiviations of a man who would get off on telling a woman such stories.

reply to post by White Chapel


I have nothing to say, for your deciding that this fellow made it up. I can only tell you that he had "things" to back up some of what he said.

Also, he cried like a baby when he told me what happend, so I don't think it was a case of the guy just bragging, but still he had no remorse. The crying was because of not what they did, but because of how life was in the military in Viet Nam. How it made drug addicts and drunkards out of the best of the people there. How it ruined the lives of the soldiers, not the people they used for target practice. He was crying for his fellow soldiers. Yes, he saw quite a few of his buddies die while there, had to pick up bodies of friends, and or body parts.

My concern also, is the extended, and or never ending tours of some of the soldiers in Iraq. It's awful that a lot of them are going to be mentally ruined for life after having had to stay for such a long time, not by their choice. My friend chose to stay. To make a career out of the mess, and I know he was mentally ill from it all.

As for me making it up? I have no reason to. I can only say what I was told, and it is no skin off my back one way or the other. I am only telling this story out of experience and nothing more. It doesn't benefit me the least to tell it.

reply to post by rcwj75


Good, that is what I like to hear. I'm sure you are a good cop.

Here is a decision you may be faced with, unfortunately.

Lets say that situation x occurs, and martial law is declared in all of America.
The military, rolls into your town, sets up roadblocks, and generally takes over all law enforcement. You notice that there are heavily armed men driving around in humvee's but they are not army. They are "private contractors" such as "Blackwater" for example. They are placed in charge of gun confiscation. In the course of taking people's guns, some people decide that they still live in America and shoot some of the contractors. This causes the contractors to use not so friendly tactics on future confiscations.

What do you do? Do you grab your m-4 and start kicking some mercenary butt, and put together a force to take your town back, or do you roll over and play along, like in New Orleans 2005?

reply to post by downtown436


First and foremost let me clear up one thing. I really don't recognize Martial Law as law. The only reason the law was written was for complete domination of the American people. I.E. = ME! There is no other reason behind it. Some may say if the WAR ever comes to our soil it will be used to protect people...let me tell you, just like our brothers did back when the Red Coats came a callin, every able body man and women better be layin the smack down to our enemy...not hiding out letting everyone else do all the work. Then they say it can be implimented if crime/violence gets so bad it puts innocent lives at risk. hmmm, another cop out....if our government in all their wisdom understood justice and the right way to punish and set a standard, the streets will never run that wild.

Downtown, NOTHING supercedes my family and my freedom. Many men and women came before all of us, standing up to and doing what was right for their families and their freedoms. Because of that we live in a country that is the best on the world...IMO

Having served my country I understand tactics, firepower, survival, blah blah blah....and I understand what the "private" sector would be used for in times like that. With that said, this is my country...its our country....many want to take it from us, a few want to destroy our way of life, and slowly but surely our government will try to rewrite our constituation....will I grab my M4 and fight back? I will fight back in a manner that words on this board cannot describe. Will I aim center mass of the "private" army who had accepted the contract and be paid to destroy my family and the same country I once served...oh baby...the game would most definitly be on.

Originally posted by downtown436
or do you roll over and play along, like in New Orleans 2005?

The issue of NO 2005 is a completely different monster. I have friends who went down there to help. These are good honest men who are great cops. Not cops like most of you apparently had dealings with..lol. These guys came back with stories NOT run by the media. I know its off topic in a way, and this could be a whole thread in itself but Katrina brought out the worst in our government, the best in some people who provided aid, relief, etc... to the victims, but it also brought out the true scum we now breed in this country.

Your city was just leveled, tragic events occruing all around...and MANY MANY MANY POS(use your imagination on that acronym..lol) who were able bodied, healthy, etc...stood around demanding help, demanding food, demanding money, demanding many things...but NOT lifting a finger to HELP THEIR OWN CITY AND NEIGHBORS....what they did do was steal TV's, Computers, DVD's, Ipods, etc....and even some of these scum were cops, fireman, etc....it makes you sick...well me sick...so I feel that definitly needed to stop and some force WAS needed to regain control.

In a Katrina situation the city/town/people need to pull together and get themselves back on their feet...don't rely so much on Washington. I just hope people can tell the difference between outright takeover of America and a harsh responce to an out of control situation.

reply to post by BlueRaja

And where are these food storage facilities that you think would be mobbed. This isn't Somalia, with warehouses of cornmeal stacked up.

Our economy is in no danger of having starving masses, so you can dispense with the alarmism.

Well, I guess the UN is wrong then...

Global food prices have skyrocketed by as much as 60 per cent in the past year, while UN officials warn of the likelihood of food riots.

source

In response to EnthralledFan;

As I mentioned earlier, to me, anyone who has never served in the military does not have the moralright to protest that same military. If you want to protest something then protest the government.

I might be somewhat of a hothead, but anyone spitting on me or calling me a babykiller will get their a$$ kicked.

As far as the person you mentioned flying around in a helicopter as a drunk doorgunner seems to be somewhat off. The U.S. lost somewhere around 5000+ helicopters in Vietnam and I serously doubt they would let some drunks go on a joyride. As far as his purple heart, you can get them at any military surplus store.

As my father taught me (and he did 2 and a half years in Veitnam), the people who openly brag about their "combat tours" were probably not in the $hit.

And not to put to fine a point on your hatred of the military. If it wasn't for the sacrifice of this country's Armed Forces, I highly doubt you would be allowed to type this crap.