Is there any military or police members here who can answer this question?

Are you prepared to assult, arrest, or kill any citizen of your own country under orders from your government during a situation of martial law? To be more exact, would you do this under circumstances that if it were not martial law, you would never do because it would be illegal, immoral, or just plain inhuman? If so, please explain and or justify these actions to us, your peers, fellow humans, how you could do any of these things. (I was just following, or will be following orders will not be accepted as a qualifying answer). This question is not only posed to American service people but Canadian as well. Military and Police alike........heres your big chance to dispel all of our fears. I'm not being sarcastic or trying to bait you. If you have an opinion, lets hear it......

Former military; six years. Brother still on active duty and passing the 20 year mark (he joined much earlier and is older).

My brother and I were never asked this question or anything even remotely like it. This urban legend comes from a survey that allegedly took place in the early 90’s (possibly earlier) asking soldiers – I think from the 82nd – if they would carry out orders against civilians in our own country. If that’s true, I don’t know but, that’s where the legend is born. All the other stories you have heard have morphed from this beginning and are to a “T” false.

Here is the catch; everyone does swear an oath to protect the US from all enemies both foreign and domestic. What those domestic enemies might be in anyone’s guess.

Let your heart rest easy; soldiers are people with families, parents, children, friends, etc. They are human beings with goals, aspirations, hopes and fears. Once you join, you don’t become some unthinking super-human. Meaning, an unlawful order given to attack innocent civilians would be disobeyed, much less never given.

Soldiers have a duty to disobey unlawful orders, and they would.


[edit on 12-2-2008 by SlightlyAbovePar]

Good reply ABOVE PAR,
Some folks really are paranoid much more than I ever thought. To the OP, there are bad apples in every group of apples. You don't throw out the good apples with the bad do you? SOldiers do not blindly obey orders. There have been incidents in hostile situations where soldiers where less then professional to say the least but, there actions where there own not "orders". I think the U.S. Government handle the military part of the day - 9/1/1 exceptionaly well, considering the events of that day. I mean to say, I was able to take the car to the market for groceries. I wasn't shot, assaulted or otherwise abussed by U.S. troops. I think you are alot safer than you imagine

reply to post by morthn1waytoskinacat


Orders that are illegal are invalid and do not have to be followed.

We could also not arrest anyone under anything but martial law.

For some odd reason people don't seem to believe us when we tell them that.

If it did come to martial law, maybe the pres. would use people like blackwater to do the job.

Mod Note: One Line Post – Please Review This Link.

[edit on 13-2-2008 by GAOTU789]

reply to post by COOL HAND


So you are saying that members of the military, national guard, etc can only arrest someone in the United States if martial law is declared?

I beg to differ with you if that is what you were trying to have people believe.

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On topic we always hear about the soldiers in Iraq, Afghanistan that commit alleged atrocities, this only counts for a very small number of troops that are over there. Then we still have all the personnel here and stationed around the world. I am of the belief still that the overwhelming majority of the military does indeed care about America and that most of them would not accept illegal orders against those they had sworn to protect.

That's hope, but it's a good hope.

"War makes fascists of us all".

This is naive to think that soldiers won't carry out such orders. It just takes the right scenario.

Just like cops they are trained to use an 'us versus them' mentality.

From Wiki

Humans have been shown to be surprisingly obedient in the presence of perceived legitimate authority figures, as demonstrated by the Milgram experiment in the 1960s. Milgram carried out his experiments to discover how the Nazis had managed to get ordinary people to take part in the mass murder of the Holocaust.

The Stanford prison experiment repeated this study.

All the soldiers have to be told is that these people are 'enemies of the state' or something like that. Then they'll be led past the normal inhibitions. Once it starts, there will be no barriers, as the mob mentality takes over.

We already see it with soldiers getting frustrated and taking things out on the civilian population in Iraq, 'Nam and other countries. It's a small step from non-combatant foreign civilians to native civilians.

So, don't fool yourself thinking about an individual's morality or individual choices.

Heck remember the dichotomy seen in recent films, like Starship Troopers where suffrage is only granted after serving in the corps. As director Paul Verhoeven states, the message is that "War makes fascists of us all".

Im former military as well. 83-87 USMC and was a MP too boot.
I dont think most of our troops would be able to enslave let alone kill its own citizens. Its too close too home for even the most hardened of Elite IMO.
Now if citizens were trying too take military assets then I can see more force at times being used.
No I dont think the Police/Troops of the US in any form have the training,tools or Want too Police State or Nazify the US.
Look at 911 and the following first weeks. That was the most Police State your gonna get. And the majority of citizens and areas were if anything more self policing and saw less Police activity.
Its just Way too much for this Society too carry out IMO.

reply to post by niteboy82


The military is not able to enforce laws due to:

The Posse Comitatus Act

Obviously that is suspended during martial law, which allows you to use federal forces to enforce laws.

i promise you, the people I used to work with would have no problem going into a US city and assaulting/arresting/etc. citizens. as long as it wasn't their hometown.

Anyone the military police arrest will be turned over to New Orleans police for transportation and booking. Police will also be responsible for targeting key criminal activities.Source

That was the first one that came up when I searched, I assure you they are still here and it is still happening. They do indeed arrest people and then turn them over to the police, they patrol in their cars, and they are not the nicest bunch to run into when they are having a bad day.

Posse Comitatus...

reply to post by vance



So, soldiers do not blindly obey orders huh? Yesterday a military copurt gave a serviceman 10 years and a dishonorable discharge for ' blindly obey an order'. The guy's Sgt. told him to shoot an unarmed and helpless man in the head with a 9mm, for no reason. The man and his 17 year old son had accidentally stepped right on them in their hiding place; the kid was kept a half hour and let go. The the Sgt. gave the order and the man got his brains blased out.

The soliders lawyer blames three hard nights with little sleep for the event. There have been hundreds if not thousands of civilians murdered this way in Iraq...and if a human life is worth zero there what makes you think that it has any value here? In Germany, how many SS troops obeyed orders and slaughtered millions? Soldiers WILL obey, or be shot on the spot by their own. Believe me when it gets nasty, the soldiers here will not be any less likley to use deadly force wrongly. If the order come, it will be obeyed, one way or another.

I am glad that you have faith; the facts say it is not deserved.

Originally posted by COOL HAND
reply to post by niteboy82

 

The military is not able to enforce laws due to:

The Posse Comitatus Act

Obviously that is suspended during martial law, which allows you to use federal forces to enforce laws.

Not any more: Bush has signed a document that eliminate the posse act. it is gone. So is habeas corpus. you thought that they nwould take them all at once? They already have taken them, and they will never be back again. A right lost is never restored without force.

Originally posted by niteboy82

Anyone the military police arrest will be turned over to New Orleans police for transportation and booking. Police will also be responsible for targeting key criminal activities.Source

That was the first one that came up when I searched, I assure you they are still here and it is still happening. They do indeed arrest people and then turn them over to the police, they patrol in their cars, and they are not the nicest bunch to run into when they are having a bad day.

Posse Comitatus...

They are still there under section 1076 of the John Warner Defense Appropriation Act for Fiscal Year 2007 (H.R. 5122.ENR).

It allows a President to:

...employ the armed forces, including the National Guard in Federal service, to... restore public order and enforce the laws of the United States when, as a result of a natural disaster, epidemic, or other serious public health emergency, terrorist attack or incident, or other condition in any State or possession of the United States..., where the President determines that,...domestic violence has occurred to such an extent that the constituted authorities of the State or possession are incapable of maintaining public order; suppress, in a State, any insurrection, domestic violence, unlawful combination, or conspiracy...

Obviously the President feels that the local government can't handle it by themselves down there.

I notice that so far noone has directly answered the question. The question was:

Are you prepared to assult, arrest, or kill any citizen of your own country under orders from your government during a situation of martial law?

SlightAbovePar says that it's an urban legend that this question was asked, but does not say that he would or would not personally follow such an order if issued.

COOL HAND says that "we wouldn't have to follow such orders," and that certain conditions would need to be met before the order could even be given, but does not say that he would or would not personally follow them if issued.

VType says "I dont think most of our troops would be able to enslave let alone kill its own citizens," but he also does not say whether he would personally carry out the order if issued.

scientist assures us that he has worked with others who he believes would follow orders of this sort, but also fails to say whether he would personally be willing or unwilling to carry them out.

...


The question was not "do you think others would" nor is it "have others in the past" nor was it "would it hypothetically be legal if..."

The question was...if you were personally issued an order to kill and/or place under arrest, United States citizens here on US soil, during an announced condition of martial law...would you obey the order, or would you refuse to obey the order?

If you were to refuse such an order it is extremely likely that you would then be in the receiving end of this position, with your fellow soldiers having to decide whether or not they would be willing to kill and/or arrest you. Understanding what you would face whether you were to obey such orders, or refuse to obey them...would you carry out such an order?

reply to post by COOL HAND


This Act was repealed with the Patriot Act.

Need I say more?

reply to post by LordBucket


Yes, I would shoot and kill an unarmed civilian if I was ordered to. I have since turned in my shield upon realizing this.

As far as soldiers go, I have two words Kent State

Kent State gained national attention on May 4, 1970 when an Ohio National Guard unit fired at students during a war protest on campus, killing four and wounding nine. This event, known as the Kent State shootings, caused an immediate closure of the campus as well as many other college campuses around the nation. The Guard had been called into Kent after several protests in and around campus had become violent, including the rioting of downtown Kent and the burning of the ROTC building. The main cause of the protests was the United States' invasion of Cambodia during the Vietnam War.

And I'm sure this guy would have no problem violating your civil rights, or poppin a cap in your dome piece in some dark alley.

Martial law already does exist for all intents and purposes when you see crap like this.



And of course there is this one as well. The cops here didn't even realize what they were doing was wrong, so they taped it themselves.

Allright my answer in short is No. I would not have as a soldier carried out a martial law order as the OP has presented and most likely would be detained for inaction. IMO its fundamentally Wrong to use any Military forces arms on its own Citizens. Regardless but thats me.

Yeah, but the citizens are weak and do not care a bit....there should be a massive march on that pig station that lasts as long as the lying sheriff has a job. The cop's who did the assault should be charged and fired. Of course.

But all that will happen is that the lady will get a lot of money from the insurance company that covers the jail, nothing will change: Many milliopns are paid out every year for this crap but it never seems to sink in the the thick heads of the fascist pig regime.

If that was my wife or daughter I would be making plans right now to even the score.