Corruption of Dalai Lama

Nice points vox.

Buddhists (and Catholics and Presbyters), like us all are human---with human virtues and human vices.

For what it's worth I give kudos to His Holiness for being a man of the times. I hadn't heard of this latest.

Originally posted by Witness2008
reply to post by die_another_day

 

You keep throwing that kitten in front of the speeding Chinese semi. Are you communist and working for the Chinese military

No I am not a communist and I am not working for the Chinese military. I will not take back anything that I have said because these findings are what changed my views on the Dalai, and it's been convincing. This man is just like those travelling TV preachers. *sends a bucket around**takes bucket back, yeh! $500,000*
Are you a Buddhist? If you're not then why arn't you one if you believe in this man so much.
So far I have not been convinced that this man is genuine in what he does. My statements are what I believe to be the truth, show some evidence, not just speeches. Things are easier said than done.

reply to post by die_another_day


Yes I am a Buddhist, but it is not like becoming a christian where you sit in a church pew and let someone else tell you whats up. It has been years of reading about the history of Buddhism, the practice of Buddhism and the the real hard part begins when you must dig deep within yourself and look at all the ugly things within... then as an exorcist would do you expell all the bad you can.

Buddhism is all about ones self, understanding the struggle of life, then dealing with it. You can not help another to understand untill you do.

Meditation is the only way to understanding yourself... then the world around you. It is an ongoing struggle but a beautiful growth.

Read everything you can get your hands on, I suggest the "Tibetan Book of Living and Dying" it is not a hard read, it encompasses the teachings in a way that you would understand. It will change your sight for the better.

I've been thinking a little bit about "die-an" (the OP) and wondering. In her posts she seems to be shadow boxing all over the place, insinuating and making charges but in a fluffy, unconvincing way. She's a tease. This makes me wonder if she's not really coming clean in the thread.

Is there something else you are not telling us about, die-an? Have you had a bad personal experience that might shed a little more light on why you feel the way you do? Because you don't strike me as the kind of person who would ordinarily trouble themselves about what a religious figure was up to? So far all you've said is that the Dalai Lama is the Jim Baker of Buddhism. You're not the Jessica Hahn of Buddhism are you?

I happen to agree with "die another day" here, and before I speak I need to make clear that I am not a communist, and I have nothing to do with the Chinese government, and have neutral view point on the situation in Tibet (i.e. I don't really care if Tibet is independent or not, I can happily live with either scenario).

I don't think the Dalai Lama is such a living saint that most of the media portraits him as, and I just don't get why he gets so much popularity for speaking lots of common sense on those state visits. I before thought he was a exiled high profile monk who (is supposed to) live in a modest if not humble lifestyle, but that guy jets around the world and stays in 5 star hotels everywhere he goes, I thought monks were supposed to live abstinent lives? No???

And by the way, if you read into past histories of Tibet you'll find the Tibetan society under the ruling of the Lamas was horrific, i.e. every year in one of their rituals they would do a thing called "lighting the heaven candle", and that "candle" is not a normal candle you and me think of! They also used to present in the ritual a fresh human skin... The normal people lived in that old Tibetan society were treated as slaves and worth less than sheep or cows. Take a look at these pictures here: newschecker.blogspot.com...
Be warned, these images are very disturbing! And all this happened under the rule of the current Dalai Lama, sure -- this was happening for generations before him, but he was right at the top of the food chain in the midst of it, curious why he didn't tell us all this before pleading for supports.

I say free Tibet if they will, and even better without violence just as the Dalai Lama says, but if that man goes back and gets treated like God and starts to use human sacrifices again in those "magical ceremonies", I'd rather it stays the way it is now.

[edit on 27-3-2008 by topjumper]

[edit on 27-3-2008 by topjumper]

To those who have asserted that Tibet was 'oppressive and inhumane' instead of being sincere to the ideals of Buddhism:
I am open to the possibility that the dystopia you describe could have been present to varying degrees. On the other hand, I have doubts.
- I would like to ask: What is the general position among contemporary academics studying Tibetan history, politics, and religion? And in view of this question, do you think Tibetan culture is of real value, or merely the meaningless product of oppression by a religious (Buddhist) power structure?

- A few here have echoed criticisms in Western media outlets (possibly TIME, the BBC, etc??) that China is (paraphrasing) suppressing the Tibetan language (the language, yes?) and Tibetan traditions among people of Tibet. I am open to the possibility that this is happening, but I have strong doubts which hinge on whether there is evidence that such suppression is being propagated downwards in a systematic manner by regional authorities. Yes, I do believe in the possibility that this is happening, but if it was real, then:
- What are the reasons behind such a policy? The obvious? (Integration of Tibet with China, putting an end to Tibetan secessionist violence, etc?) A real possibility, but nonetheless contentious.

- If the Dalai Lama is "corrupted", rather than "sincere", what are his goals and motives then? Are there any concrete clues as to his political motives, assuming he is acting from political considerations (rather than simple humanist idealism)? In reply to someone who earlier said that the Dalai Lama should focus on preaching to the Buddhisthood rather than participating in media campaigns - one possibility is that the media gives greater reach to spread beneficial ideals, and might thus be a better alternative to preaching. Of course, I wonder all the time whether the Dalai Lama's frequent media appearances are:
1. Based on true information, and thus truthful (in service of truth)?
2. Misleading (inaccurate or possibly distortive)?
3. Disinformation (campaigns run solely for political leverage, concessions)?

I am willing to respect immensely the Dalai Lama, in whom many (among the Tibetan monkhood, and among people from Western cultures) place great faith (seemingly). But I am no longer sure what to believe - political charades can be productive in promoting societal harmony (especially among those in Tibet who still consider him as their spiritual leader) and yet, can be spiritually hollow at the same time.

Originally posted by topjumper
I don't think the Dalai Lama is such a living saint that most of the media portraits him as, and I just don't get why he gets so much popularity for speaking lots of common sense on those state visits.

I think it's a testimony to the uncommoness of common sense. People don't hear it much from top political leaders.

I before thought he was a exiled high profile monk

That's true.

who (is supposed to) live in a modest if not humble lifestyle, but that guy jets around the world and stays in 5 star hotels everywhere he goes, I thought monks were supposed to live abstinent lives? No???

Did Mother Teresa stay in motels on the strip when she travelled? The Dalai Lama is also a political leader. The whole issue of lama/leader luxury is a conundrum to regular folks.

We get into the nuts and bolts and facts of life of super celebrities here. It's why Picasso became a prisoner in his own home, eventually, why the Beatles couldn't hear themselves sing at Yankee Stadium and had to stop touring altogether, why Brad Pit has to hire an army to protect his family and last but not least why Gandhi got shot.

And by the way, if you read into past histories of Tibet you'll find the Tibetan society under the ruling of the Lamas was horrific,

I'm all in favor of reading. The more the better in fact. Most people who read a lot know that the past history of just about everywhere was horrific, especially the past history of Europe.

i.e. every year in one of their rituals they would do a thing called "lighting the heaven candle", and that "candle" is not a normal candle you and me think of! They also used to present in the ritual a fresh human skin...

Please include more detail. I couldn't find a reference to this and my imagination is starting to go into overdrive. I saw a Chinese martial arts movie once where a dead tyrant was paraded through town with his stomach aflame, burning like a candle from it's own fat.

Which reminds me, that Tibetans usually say that they got their religious influences from India and the secular cultural influences from China. It could very well be that a lot of the macabre demonstrations of torture cited against Tibet were actually Chinese imports. China being known for the "death of a thousand cuts" and other refinements, like eating a live monkey's brains for dinner, etc.

The normal people lived in that old Tibetan society were treated as slaves and worth less than sheep or cows.

That's an oversimplification, but your general point is taken. That sort of thing was the norm in all medieval societies.

Take a look at these pictures here: newschecker.blogspot.com...
Be warned, these images are very disturbing!

They are certainly vivid. Are they more disturbing than pictures of the tsunami victims in Thailand? Concentration camp victims in Germany? Starving people in Africa? Obese people in America?

And all this happened under the rule of the current Dalai Lama, sure -- this was happening for generations before him, but he was right at the top of the food chain in the midst of it,

For most of the current Dalai Lama's life in Tibet, Tibet was ruled by a Regent, supported by oligarchical families. The current Dalai Lama had to flee Tibet as a very young man. It's tough to lay blame for the social situation on him, personally.

If you studied the history of Tibet and the history of medieval Europe, you would understand why Tibet was the way it was. Think of it as a medieval time capsule. My own lama had never seen an automobile until he came to India.

curious why he didn't tell us all this before pleading for supports.

Now now, are you being just a little bit mischievous here?

I say free Tibet if they will, and even better without violence just as the Dalai Lama says, but if that man goes back and gets treated like God and starts to use human sacrifices again in those "magical ceremonies", I'd rather it stays the way it is now.

They use barley cakes as substitutes for human sacrifices and have done so for hundreds of years.

Incidentally, here's the way it is in Tibet now.



[edit on 15-9-2008 by ipsedixit]

Originally posted by Witness2008
For over a thousand years Tibetans lived in peace and harmony, there was no slavery but instead practiced compassion for one another.

I might suggest a book for you then: "Lama's, Princes, and Brigands"
It's full of photographs by Joseph Rock from times before the Chinese Invasion. It might help you to revise your statement, which appears to be Western apologetics.
I prefer to take the middle ground, and to quote Dickens: "It was the best of times, it was the worst of times".

Here's the truth pick any religion in the world and I can find atrocities done by these people. If you look into it most religions evolve there is exceptions. But most religions as they get older change usually towards the side of peace and human rights.

Originally posted by topjumper
Take a look at these pictures here: newschecker.blogspot.com...
Be warned, these images are very disturbing! And all this happened under the rule of the current Dalai Lama, sure -- this was happening for generations before him, but he was right at the top of the food chain in the midst of it, curious why he didn't tell us all this before pleading for supports.

I say free Tibet if they will, and even better without violence just as the Dalai Lama says, but if that man goes back and gets treated like God and starts to use human sacrifices again in those "magical ceremonies", I'd rather it stays the way it is now.

I just wanted to comment in a little more detail on the photos referenced by topjumper. The casual observer might suppose from topjumper's post and the photos that the lamas in Tibet get their ritual implements by murdering people for their body parts.

In fact all of the skulls used are from deceased lamas who donate them for the purposes. Other bones are taken from places where bones are left out for scavengers.

(In Tibet, if you can afford it you are cremated. The other main form of burial is "sky burial" where the body is butchered and fed to vultures.)

Medieval Christianity was also fixated on bones and other so-called memento mori or reminders of mortality. Just google "ossuary churches" and you will see what I mean.

Here is an example:

www.angelfire.com...

Nowadays, we ordinary materialists consider that sort of thing morbid and perhaps psychologically unhealthy. Religious people regard our refusal to face up to death as unrealistic and spiritually harmful.

I said in another place that a person from our own culture's medieval past would be surprised at nothing he found in Tibet and in fact early church missionaries who came to Tibet thought the religious culture they were seeing was a remnant of some earlier visitation of Christian missionaries.

[edit on 15-9-2008 by ipsedixit]

reply to post by WhiteWash

im not with the usa, or chinese govt. however i do know that the dalai is on the cia payroll, and from what ive seen, anyone or anything that has anything to do with the cia is most likely corrupt and suspect. ive also taken notice of the actions of the u.s. govt and the positions they take and have come to the conclusion that if the usa supports it, chances are it is evil. i honestly cant think of any decent regimes that the usa actually supports. i dont think we should look only at the dalai, but we should look at the big picture, and that would be the actions of the usa throughout the world, as well as the kinds of leaders they support. im not saying that i support the chinese govt, but i will say that the u.s. government is inherently corrupt and has no regard for human rights. some examples that i can think of off the top of my head are osama, sadam, suharto, marcos, pinochet, noriega, israel and lots of other obvious rogue states. in fact, the usa has a base where it specifically trains dictators, the school of the americas. if you want to know more about how the u.s. govt gets down, i suggest apology confessions of an economic hitman. and before you say im biased, i was raised in a socially conservative right wing family, having gone through the routine nationalist right wing brain washing education system. i was taught to believe that the west stood for freedom and democracy, however, i no longer believe that. in fact, i believe that the west is the biggest obstacle to true freedom and or democracy.

I was trying to find pages I read years ago proving the Dalai was a fake ... 3 for sure (maybe 4 or more, can't remember now) birthdays! His birthday changes as the interpretations of prophesies change! Well, I can't find it in all the mess now. (search engine rant)

But, I found this political squabble about 13th Dalai that may interest any OBJECTIVE scholar trying to ferret out truth from lie, fiction from fantasy, and especially religion from politics!

wisdombuddhadorjeshugden.blogspot.com...

www.westernshugdensociety.org...

It does amaze me that people seem to block out, or just don't know what tibet was like before the Chinese took over. It was a horrible place where most of the population were slaves, while the "enlightend ones" lived in Luxury. I am not saying that the Chinese have been angels in all this, far from it, but i also believe that the deli lama is not the peace loving person people make him out to me.

Most of the people who say he is, most prob don't even know tibeten history. My wife is Chinese, and she had no bad words to say about the deli lama. That was until she made a documentry "eighty days around China" and she spent alot of time in tibet speaking to the people. Then she started looking into what tibet was like before the Chinese took over, and it is not very pleasant.