are we alone in the universe?

Originally posted by Badge01
There is almost 100% probability that there is other carbon-based 'life' in the _Universe_ (bacteria, and other simple organisms).

I beg to differ. We have absolutely no clue as to how a batch of interesting chemicals and molecules arranges itself into a living thing with a consciousness and point of view. I was watching a show recently on one of the science channels about exobiology, and paid particularly close attention to the part where they talk about how and where life came from. They had one of the top guys in the field. His response was essentially, "We don't know." Life could have started here, or rode in on a comet. And as for how it happened to be on the comet... no clue.

So maybe there's some kind of life out there. But at this point we have exactly zero proof of such a thing. And just because the Universe is big and old doesn't mean anything. Time + chemicals + size does not necessarily equal life. If you shook a box of rocks and water for a 100 billion years, is life guaranteed to form in it? There's no indication of that.

[edit on 14-2-2008 by Nohup]

Originally posted by projectvxn
We have proof of life in the universe. Otherwise we wouldn't be here. So lets start looking for it elsewhere.

It would be very nice if "one followed the other".....but it doesn't necessarily do so. The existence of 'us' doesn't force an existence of 'them'. Basic, rudimentary life? Darn good chance.....bacteria, spores, etc....But, I don't think the OP is referring to single cell organisms, heh?

Originally posted by trewth
there is no doubt that there is other life forms in the universe and they have arrived here on earth and the u.s. govt has the proof, we dont have proof here on this board but there is proof

I contend that there is doubt. Big, fat, greasy amounts of doubt. It would be nice if there was proof somewhere, and that some lieutenant has a file cabinet full of alien bones. But I sure haven't seen it. And anybody who ever claimed to have seen it was curiously never able to produce the goods. A shame, really. But I don't know what kind of "proof" you're talking about that we can't see or verify or know where it is. "Invisible proof?" That's a little problematic, don't you think?

I guess you're willing to believe all the tall tales nobody has been able to back up. Maybe because it's what you would like to hear, and it fits in with what you believe. I don't know. I guess I just don't understand that kind of thinking.

Do Not Edit Moderator Edits.



[edit on 14-2-2008 by elevatedone]

Originally posted by trewth
mod edit -

The simple way to get me to stop is to just admit that you don't have anything to back up your definitive statements as to the existence of life in the universe other than that found on Earth. Just admit it that at this time there is no solid, verifiable and verified proof that there is life elsewhere. Just say, "I don't know."

[edit on 14-2-2008 by elevatedone]

Well then, why don't we start with what we do know.

We know that most, if not all countries have reported UFO sightings at some point. We know that some of these sightings cannot be explained by natural phenomena, hence we can deduce that these UFO's are of intelligent design.

Bottom line, we are aware that these are craft of some sort, but are not sure who they belong to.

Now here is where we can intelligently (to some degree) speculate.
I don't know about the rest of you guys, but I don't have THAT much faith in human engineering. I really cannot see us independently making the quantum leaps in technology that would be necessary for the construction of these crafts. Some reported UFO's have performed maneuvers that would kill human occupants.

It is likely that some of these crafts do belong to us, but I really do not believe we were responsible for the technology or fundamental designs.

For god sakes man - We still hold the combustion engine in high regard

Originally posted by Nohup

Originally posted by Badge01
There is almost 100% probability that there is other carbon-based 'life' in the _Universe_ (bacteria, and other simple organisms).

I beg to differ. We have absolutely no clue as to how a batch of interesting chemicals and molecules arranges itself into a living thing with a consciousness and point of view.

Huh? I'm not sure your actually addressing my comment. Where do you get I said 'consciousness and point of view'? Where did I say proof.

Even Seth Shostak says 'probability of other life in the Universe - 100%'. Life. This means single-celled organisms but doesn't rule out or in higher forms of life.

I was watching a show recently on one of the science channels about exobiology, and paid particularly close attention to the part where they talk about how and where life came from. They had one of the top guys in the field. His response was essentially, "We don't know." Life could have started here, or rode in on a comet. And as for how it happened to be on the comet... no clue.

OK, fine. I agree. In fact I don't yet see where we 'differ'.

So maybe there's some kind of life out there. But at this point we have exactly zero proof of such a thing. And just because the Universe is big and old doesn't mean anything. Time + chemicals + size does not necessarily equal life. If you shook a box of rocks and water for a 100 billion years, is life guaranteed to form in it? There's no indication of that.

Agree completely. No proof. It's impossible to prove. In fact the Universe is so big that such assessments are really nonsensical.

However, if you want to get right down to it, I believe there is some proof that 'organic molecules' have been found meteors, or in free space, if I'm not mistaken. Again, this is not DNA. But it seems to suggest that such configuration tends to happen. I'd even go so far as to say the probability of complex, even self-replicating organic molecules in the seas of Europa is greater than 50%.

Thanks for your input. I think we agree more than disagree, if we can just decide on the topic.

Originally posted by Bagel

We know that most, if not all countries have reported UFO sightings at some point. We know that some of these sightings cannot be explained by natural phenomena, hence we can deduce that these UFO's are of intelligent design.

I think it would make more sense to try to categorize specific sightings that could NOT be explained by terrestrial means, taking into account the problems of human perception and optical effects.

We already know that it's difficult to construe apparent size and speed of flying objects, even by trained observers. There's the case of two gentlemen flying a UAV having to show witnesses the craft in the trunk of their car when the people swore the object was football field size. We already know that flights of birds can be mistaken for fast-flying craft (because of misjudging distance).

Bottom line, we are aware that these are craft of some sort, but are not sure who they belong to.

Again, I think it's very difficult to decide whether something is a 'craft', or if it has a pilot. Remember we have lots of UAVs flying now from Predators to unmanned flying wings to craft that can probably holographically project nearly any flight configuration.

It's very easy to mistake those for even more exotic shapes given the odd angles. Do you remember the misidentification of the Janet aircraft some observers made due to the fact the plane was coming straight at them from a distance? To them it appeared it was a craft that was stationary and growing.

Now here is where we can intelligently (to some degree) speculate.
I don't know about the rest of you guys, but I don't have THAT much faith in human engineering. I really cannot see us independently making the quantum leaps in technology that would be necessary for the construction of these crafts. Some reported UFO's have performed maneuvers that would kill human occupants.

Very easy to misidentify due to human perception and optical effects. You see a light dim, then another light grow and to us it looks like a craft has just darted across the sky. It might be a plane and a star making that effect.

It is likely that some of these crafts do belong to us, but I really do not believe we were responsible for the technology or fundamental designs.

Fair enough, but it might help to cite specific examples. I think we need to be very cautious due to the presence of the above, plus the fact that we now know that people are purposely hoaxing with RPV craft - you can even buy them on websites.

Suffice it to say I think in this day and age we almost have to rule out all 'lights in the sky' as any evidence of the 'ET hypothesis' by default. There's simply too much 'clutter'.

I would also take issue with your comments about not having much faith in human engineering. I mean c'mon, are you kidding? Just look at the advances in aviation from 1908 to the 1960s and the first Have Blue prototype. It's almost unbelievable. Look at the advances in computers from the 1950s and ENIAC to the desktop supercomputer.

Just do a patent search or look at aviation journals to see all the exotic craft that is possible, but might not have been funded.

I'm not trying to be a debunker, necessarily. I'm just saying let's look at the right things with a logical approach. We should be cautious about making deductive leaps such as 'it can't be ours, it has to be ET'. Fair enough?

reply to post by Scramjet76

Hehe not so fast! According to modern physics the other side of a blackhole may in fact be a "whitehole." Let us not forget! The reason we don't see whitehouse landings or aliens like us is because aliens wouldn't be like us. Any aliens like us would be so because they were within a couple hundred years of us on an evolutionary timescale. I would say it is much more likely to find life far less advanced or far more advanced than us. Either one of those options make communication very difficult.

That is a conditional proposition that is impossible to argue against. And it does make sense. But that same argument also makes SETI a futile undertaking. Let’s take the money and build wading pools for children?

Originally posted by Badge01
However, if you want to get right down to it, I believe there is some proof that 'organic molecules' have been found meteors, or in free space, if I'm not mistaken. Again, this is not DNA. But it seems to suggest that such configuration tends to happen. I'd even go so far as to say the probability of complex, even self-replicating organic molecules in the seas of Europa is greater than 50%.

Thanks for your input. I think we agree more than disagree, if we can just decide on the topic.

Oh, I'm not saying that it's impossible that there's no other life out there. We just don't know how to even go about calculating the probabilities of such things. Even the simplest life is astoundingly complex, and it either works, or it doesn't. Take a bunch of complex molecules and shake them around for a few billion years and you might get them all to fall into perfect place and "come alive." Some complex molecules and chemicals naturally link together in certain ways, sure. Crystals form if you can protect them from chaos long enough. Things like that.

But I'm trying to imagine taking something like an automobile, for instance, taking all the parts and putting them in a big box and shaking it randomly for a couple billion years. What are the odds that they will randomly "fall together" into the shape of a complete, working automobile? And compared to even the most simple, single-celled organism, an automobile has relatively few parts. Even if you had a head start, say a couple tons of extracted, intact DNA, and put it into something the size of a railroad boxcar, and shook it for a billion years, would it still form life? Because you have to not only get the DNA to work, you still have to put it in some kind of cellular membrane so it can gather nutrients and expel wastes. Talk about your "astronomical" odds!

I understand how easy it is to think that life is a common, ordinary thing, easy to come by, since we're alive and surrounded by life. But when you think about the real odds, even as big and old as the Universe is, all those chemicals and shaking might have only happened to produce life just once (so far). Right here.

And I'm not arguing for a god-like Creator. Heaven forbid. I have a couple of purely secular ideas about how the Universe and life might have come to be that might help the odds. But they're essentially impossible to prove at this time. A few stray thoughts kicking around in my head.

So we agree on the possibility, but are pretty far off on the probability. Still, a comet could land tomorrow with bacteria on it. Then maybe we'd have a little better guess at the odds.

reply to post by Nohup



Not knowing is no excuse for not trying to find out. And certainly not an excuse to not imagine the possibilities. The probabilities are better than you think.


[edit on 14-2-2008 by projectvxn]

If you are alone in this universe which all of us are, because no one lives our lives for us we do, but you can gurantee that their are others out there once that curtain is lifted.

The problem is we can't prove that aliens exist or don't exist. They will have show up,with a large fleet and said here we are. Or we will have to wait until we are advance enough. So we can found out for ourself.Which that won't happen in our lifetime.

reply to post by kennethmd


They are amongst you now in the human flesh those that are from other dimensions, other planes of existance, other densities.

A lot of them are incarnated into a body, or modified a body, or just downright created a mental distortion around their bodies.

I was told 1/10 of the population was from the seventh, eight and ninth and higher dimesions populace a few years back what do you think is here now.

How you overide any old program is by bringing in a new vibration, to create waves amongst the people.

The only ones you are truly waiting for is YOURSELVES, you are the new generation that is unfolding its own capabilities, but you guys needed something to TRIGGER your memories.

Originally posted by projectvxn
Not knowing is no excuse for not trying to find out. And certainly not an excuse to not imagine the possibilities. The probabilities are better than you think.

Oh, I never said you shouldn't stop trying to find out. In fact, it's my natural skepticism that keeps me looking. If I felt that I already knew the truth of the matter, and had all the proof I need, then I could stop looking.

I just think we cant be alone, space goes on forever, there has to be somthing else out there.

Originally posted by projectvxn
reply to post by Nohup

 

Not knowing is no excuse for not trying to find out. And certainly not an excuse to not imagine the possibilities. The probabilities are better than you think.


[edit on 14-2-2008 by projectvxn]

And even less of an excuse for poking fun at those who might think differently!

Nicely put projectvxn... I pretty much agree with everything you've posted in this thread so far. Congratulations for being a beacon of open-mindedness!

Some people will just not be satisfied until an alien spaceship falls on their head, and an alien pops out and smacks them with the galactic version of a wet fish.

reply to post by tac109


You have misintepreted, you are filling out into your old clothes of what you use to be. A rise in consciousness will definately bring back those memories of what and who humanity is. Those in other costumes might just have been related to you, you all were once part of but forgot while taking on Earths Noble project.

You came in to Earth to loosen it from its closed off mind set, Earth got locked in a place where they forgot where we came from, and in doing so kept themselves closed off from other societies out there.

2010-2017 is going to unlock all of humanities potential. By remembering who the what is out there, is us, refamiliarizing our place in the Universe within ourselves, and when that happens, the majority know of their functions, then expect families to come to Earth filling the skies,, but not until then, mankind has to rid itself of its fears so it will enable growth, growth is needed for communication to take place.

You are the Ancient Astronauts of old in a new complex organism, one of many calibrations, designed to connect to the all that is Out There.

All of you are from somewhere else, that somewhere else is from deep space, the dark sea of awareness.