Forbidden Egyptology

reply to post by Hanslune


Egypt would have a lot to loose if it was made clear that native Egyptians were not the designers,,, construction engineers of the Giza pryamid, it is unique,,with a 52 o Angle slope to its sides..




>>>Yes once people heard aliens or Atlanteans were involved in early Egyptian culture they’d all stop coming…......

Humerous response but not a rebuttal.
-Egypt has a lot riding one their claims of being the builders of the GP, which is far more structurally advanced than the other edifaces that were probably built by Egyptians.

I doubt that a "proven" Atanltean source/or influence of the Egyptian Culture would cause a decline but probably a sky rocketing increase in public interest.

reply to post by Hanslune


Here is a link to a discussion on it. Some think it was used as mast head.

There was another made of metal ..bronze ... it was originally labled as an oil lamp and had the rear tail section of a modern craft with the horiontal stabilizers. It was post approximately 2 years ago on another Conspiracy site.

The discussion “is Pharaoh Khufu really the builder of the Great Pyramid” is still ongoing because of great differences in opinions.
So, I searched for the maximum available evidence that support that claim, and these are my findings.
Correct me if I am wrong.

Part one.
The Plateau - Official Website of Dr. Zahi Hawass - King Khufu

guardians.net...

guardians.net...

He starts immediately with the following.

Khufu was the second king of Dynasty 4 of the Old Kingdom. We know very little about him, in spite of the fact that he built the most famous tomb in the ancient world, The Great Pyramid, one of the seven wonders of the world.The most important achievement of Khufu was building the great pyramid at Giza plateau.

The mainstream Egyptologists “wealth of archaeological evidence” for that claim.

So much uninformed speculation abounds as to the origin, engineering and construction of the Great Pyramid, though we have a wealth of archaeological evidence to piece together much of the accomplishment.

Recently, remnants of ramps have been found by Dr. Zahi Hawass on the south side of the pyramid that attest that some type of ramping was indeed used in the construction of this monument. The attribution of the pyramid to King Khufu is supported by workman’s markings in red ink that were found in the pyramid in small chambers that were never intended to be opened.

See this picture for those workman’s markings.

The Valley Temple of Khufu has not yet been found though it is assumed that it existed and lies at the end of the causeway. Presently, this leads to under the present day village of Nazlet el-Saman, and has yet to be uncovered and explored.

Five boats pits have been discovered in the immediate area around Khufu’s pyramid. Two are on the southern side of the main pyramid, two are on its eastern side flanking the Mortuary temple and the last is to the north of the causeway. In the southeastern pit the first intact boat was found dismantled in the pit. This was reassembled and now resides in a special climate controlled museum on the south side of the main pyramid. The southwestern pit has been found to contain yet another boat which still remains in situ.

The building of the Great Pyramid can provide us with important insights into the reign of Khufu. From the political side, it shows how Khufu controlled the wealth and the population of the country. He organized households all over Egypt into participating in the building of the pyramid, and providing the king with food (grain and beer), and with laborers. This organization reveals that the pyramid was the national project of the nation.

Khufu used the granite quarry in Aswan, basalt from the oasis, and white fine limestone from Tura. The name of Khufu has been found written in the alabaster quarry at Hatnub. Two tablets bearing his name have been found in the Sinai. His name has also been found in Bubastis. It has also been inscribed on a temple at Byblos (Lebanon), which might imply that he sent an expedition there to bring back cedar wood that was used in the construction of his boats which were found in 1945 on the south side of his pyramid. Finally, his name was found written in the western desert to the north of Abu Simbel and northwest of Toshka, where they took the diorite to be used in the statues. There is very little evidence of Khufu in connection with other gods, except his small statuette found in building K in the temple of Khentiulmentiu at Abydos, and his name was also found on vessels in the temple of Horus at Nekhen.

So, let anyone make up his own opinion, and ask him/herself the question, is this really what you can call a wealth of archaeological evidence?
Is this solid or undisputable evidence?


[edit on 15/4/08 by spacevisitor]

[edit on 15/4/08 by spacevisitor]

Howdy Spacevisitor

A good start of a list but there is more material

1. The Pyramids were built in Egypt (that may sound silly but it's important) all existing evidence of prior culture before, during and after the pyramid is - oddly enough Egyptian, no sign of any other culture.

2. The Builder village; a village populated by people who were specialists in pyramid building - they were Egyptian by the way. Some of whom were buired in small pyramid shaped tombs.

3. The C-14 tests, puting the pyramids and other monuments into the time frame attested by early work on king lists

4. Herodotus reported that the Egyptians said they built the pyramids

5. Strabo also wrote that the pyramids served as "tombs of kings"

6. Diodorus added more details

7. Another reason why Egyptologists believe that pyramids were tombs is because the ancient Egyptian record explicitly states as much. For example, the Papyrus Abbott describes the inspection of "sepulchers of former kings" under Ramesses IX. The pyramid of 17th Dynasty Sobekemsaf II was inspected:

It was found, that the thieves had broken into it by mining work through the base of its pyramid, from the outer chamber of the tomb of the overseer of the granary of King Menkheperre (Thutmose III), L.P.H., Nebamon. The burial-place of the king was found void of its lord, L.P.H., as well as the burial-place of the great king's-wife, Nubkhas, L.P.H., his royal wife; the thieves having laid their hand upon them. The vizier, the nobles, and the inspectors made an examination of it, and the manner in which the thieves had laid their hands upon this king and his royal wife, was ascertained. [Breasted, Ancient Records of Egypt, IV.517]

9. A lack of any evidence to support someone else building it/them.

There is more too and I'll get back to it.


[edit on 15/4/08 by Hanslune]

Originally posted by spacevisitor

Khufu was the second king of Dynasty 4 of the Old Kingdom. We know very little about him, in spite of the fact that he built the most famous tomb in the ancient world, The Great Pyramid, one of the seven wonders of the world.The most important achievement of Khufu was building the great pyramid at Giza plateau.

The mainstream Egyptologists “wealth of archaeological evidence” for that claim.

So much uninformed speculation abounds as to the origin, engineering and construction of the Great Pyramid, though we have a wealth of archaeological evidence to piece together much of the accomplishment.

Please note that the "wealth of ... evidence" he's talking about here pertains not just to whether or not Khufu had the GP built, but to the "origin, engineering and construction..." of the GP.

Originally posted by spacevisitor

Recently, remnants of ramps have been found by Dr. Zahi Hawass on the south side of the pyramid that attest that some type of ramping was indeed used in the construction of this monument. The attribution of the pyramid to King Khufu is supported by workman’s markings in red ink that were found in the pyramid in small chambers that were never intended to be opened.

This portion (above) is enough to refer to as a "wealth of ... evidence" that the G.P. was built by (or for) Khufu.

These "relieving chambers," BTW, are open "A-frame" type chambers above the lower chambers that direct the weight of the pyramid to the sides of the chambers below. IOW, they "relieve" the weight of the overlaying pyramid stones, directing this weight to the sides, so that the chambers meant to be entered don't contain so many pillars. Just thought I'd throw that in.

Anyway, they were sealed off because, as Hawass stated, they are not meant to be entered, they are merely an architectural void in the structure. They are chambers in name only, and not in useage.

That is why the authenticity of the quarrymarks found there is very difficult to deny. And, since they mention Khufu, it's very very likely that Khufu is responsible for their construction..

Additionally, the ramps found are an excellent indication of ancient technology being used in their construction, as opposed to some advanced technology that has somehow been lost since.

Originally posted by spacevisitor
So, let anyone make up his own opinion, and ask him/herself the question, is this really what you can call a wealth of archaeological evidence?
Is this solid or undisputable evidence?

If you wish to stipulate that Khufu went around to these quarries, where it has been shown that several stones in the G.P. were actually quarried, and put his name there to fool future generations into thinking he had built the G.P. when he had not, you're gonna have to explain how Khufu knew the stones came from these particular locations.

If it is a coincidence, IOW, if Khufu was guessing and got it right, you would have to wonder if similar markings are to be found in other quarries from Khufu's time, where he had guessed that some pyramid stones could have come from but was wrong in his attempt to fool us.

As far as "indisputable," I don't think "indisputable" evidence exists for anything in the past, including the events of last week.

But it is actual, physical evidence that hasn't been explained in any other acceptable or logical way.

Harte

sorry I was interrupted by real life:

Other evidence that the Egyptians built the pyramids

9. The rubble, the rubble from the quarries (located near the pyramids) where the stone for the pyramids come from was dumped in a wadi and those dumps were dug into during the 19th century. What was found in them? Cultural material from the Egyptians, no body else

10. Technology the pyramids were built using very (to our eyes) crude technology, using hammer stones, fire and water, bronze saw driven grit saws, etc. No sign of "high" technology.

reply to post by Hanslune

If I remember right Khufu's "katush" ? spelling...its authentisty was at one time highly contested,,but its been a few years since that topic has been addressed to my knowledge.

reply to post by Hanslune


I would not argue the Egyptians built pryamid-like sturctures to copy the Giza Pryamid. And that evidence to support that to be found around the site,, but it would not be the first time that a King..attempted to claim an ediface of another for himself.
As to boats near the pryamid if I remember right archeologist theorized that a water way ran from the nile (old river passage) to the location of the pryamids or at least very close to them.

Very ancient tunnel systems


Ancient tunnel systems have been found in algeria, libya, egypt, ethiopia, isreal. Some of them have been dated pre-6000 B.C. - 30 000 B.C.

The tunnels are facts. Whats speculation is: Are they all connected?

Source 1

The Sahara has recently revealed ultra-ancient finds starting near the "old" shores of Lake Chad and extending hundreds of miles East, Northeast toward Egypt and the Nile. This includes the various Playa (old dried lakes) such as Nabta Playa also. Buried in the sands of Time were great slabs for foundations of long gone complexes. These slabs have ranged from 100(English tons) to slightly less. (Perfectly smooth sculptures weighing almost two tons were found in the Nabta Playa area.) This sophisticated engineering prowess, reminiscent of the monoliths at Balbeck in Lebanon, are so perfectly aligned, that today’s scientist usually ignore reporting such a paradox. These sites have recently been dated from as old as 30,000 b.c. to about 9,000 b.c.

Today, under the Mediterranean, numerous remains of old cities are being excavated that are dating out to 15,000 + years before Christ. More research must expose the interface with this new data, since ultra-sophisticated finds are being exposed off the coast of Malta, and also in that nation’s interior, where underground caverns, mounted by curious buildings such as Mnajdra, are now being explored.

Source 2

DESERT NOMADS were reported yesterday to have discovered an abandoned vehicle and a network of tunnels in a remote region of southern Algeria thought likely to provide clues about the mysterious disappearance of 29 western tourists in the Sahara over the past seven weeks.

Source 3

Whence the tunnel legends?

Our guide in Axum in 1994 spouted a number of tunnel claims: the door and passageway partially excavated here led to another door/passageway over there (a mile or more away); they knew this because the doors at each end were identical. His tallest whopper was that one tunnel led from Axum all the way to Coatit (a ruin in Eritrea near Senafe). Similar doors at each end of course.

This led me to recall what I’d heard from another American in 1959-61, a tale he’d picked up somewhere downtown: a tunnel beginning someplace near Asmara (the entrance presumably lost and/or covered up over the years) that ran under the Red Sea to Mecca!

What’s the background of such tunnel tales? One person has suggested that they might derive from irrigation tunnels in Mesopotamia and the Persian Gulf, specifically Bahrain . . .

I havent looked into the tunnel issue yet, maybe some of you guys know more.

Howdy Jbmitch

The verasity of the finder, Vyse was challenged by Sitchin, unfortunately Sitchin had a long history of making stuff up and the science doesn't support his "contention".

Sitchin making stuff up

Another view

Never really highly contested, those who could read Egyptian H just laughted at Sitchin who had to discredit the age of Pyramids to make his ideas appear more sane.

Howdy Skyfloating

Those sites seem to referring to Qanat. The technology is known to have developed in ancient Persia, and then spread to other cultures, especially after the Muslim conquests, to the Iberian peninsula, southern Italy and North Africa.

Qanats are constructed as a series of well-like vertical shafts, connected by gently sloping tunnels. This technique:

Taps into subterranean water in a manner that efficiently delivers large quantities of water to the surface without need for pumping. The water drains relying on gravity, with the destination lower than the source, which is typically an upland aquifer.

Allows water to be transported long distances in hot dry climates without losing a large proportion of the source water to seepage and evaporation.
It is very common in the construction of a qanat for the water source to be found below ground at the foot of a range of foothills of mountains, where the water table is closest to the surface. From this point, the slope of the qanat is maintained closer to level than the surface above, until the water finally flows out of the qanat above ground. To reach an underground aquifer qanats must often be of extreme length.

Qanat

The above text from good old Wiki

Qanat, Kariz and Khattara: Traditional Water Systems in the Middle East - By Peter Beaumont, Michael E. Bonine, Keith Stanley

The Traditional Crafts of Persia: Their Development and Technology by Hans E. Wulff

Today, under the Mediterranean, numerous remains of old cities are being excavated that are dating out to 15,000 + years before Christ.

LOL such as?

reply to post by Hanslune


from themselves, the Ubaidians they conquered/combined with and other near them.

I finally got the time and the bandwidth to research this,,as I'm in a combat zone ,,resources are limited.

The sites that I went to didnt have anything to indicate that the Sumerians gained their knowledge from the Ubaidians. versus the Annunaki.

reply to post by jbmitch


Hanslume was it you that said the topic would be repeated in a couple of weeks?
Spynx's paw....LoL

reply to post by Hanslune


My main insterest is in the assertion of a few people that there are tunnels beneath the entire sahara desert which for some reason arent being explored by archaeologists.

As usual my interest is not in established facts but in rumours, hearsay, unexplained, the NEW.

If there is anything you know about saharan tunnels, that would be interesting.

Rumours of tunnel networks etc seem to exist almost all over the world .... but no-one has ever shown any to be true. I wonder why?

Tunnels?

Many years ago I read a German account of an Italian explorer/adventurer who allegedly discovered some sort of tunnels during the time of the Italo-Turkish war. Somewhere in Libya. He disappeared and interestingly enough many years later his son, an Italian pilot disappeared into the Arabian Empty Quarter when returning to Ethiopia from a bombing raid on the British oil desposits in Bahrain in 1940.

Essan, I'll be gone a few days, keep the lid on all the secrets will you?

Atlantis.
The discussion “has Atlantis really existed” is still ongoing because of great differences in opinions.
So, I searched for the maximum available evidence that support that claim, and these are my findings.
Correct me if I am wrong.
Is this evidence that proofs that it existed or isn’t.

My personal opinion is that Atlantis has really existed.

1. Timaeus and Critias, two of Plato's dialogues, are the most prominent ancient records which specifically refer to Atlantis. The story of Atlantis was conveyed to Solon by Egyptian priests. Solon passed the tale to Dropides, the great-grandfather of Critias. Critias learned of it from his grandfather also named Critias, son of Dropides.

2. The Oera Linda Book from Holland (Frysia) is said to be one of the oldest books ever found. It tells of the destruction of the large Atlantic island by earthquakes and tidal waves.

3. Ancient writings from the Aztecs and Mayans like the Chilam Balam, Dresden Codex, Popuhl Vuh, Codex Cortesianus, and Troano Manuscript were also translated into histories of the destruction of Atlantis and Lemuria.

4. Diodorus the ancient Greek historian wrote that thousands of years earlier Phoenicians had been to the immense Atlantic island (where Plato wrote Atlantis was.

5. Phoenician hieroglyphics have been found on numerous ruins in the South American jungles that are so ancient that the Indian tribes nearby lost memory of who built these ruins.

6. Ammianus Marcellinus the Greek historian wrote about the destruction of Atlantis.

7. Plutarch wrote about the lost continent in his book Lives.

8. Herodotus, regarded by some as the greatest historians of the ancients, wrote about the mysterious island civilization in the Atlantic.

9. Timagenusthe Greek historian wrote of the war between Atlantis and Europe and said tribes in ancient France said that was their original home.

10. Bright paintings in caves in France clearly show people wearing 20th century clothing: one painting led to an underground pyramid complex. French historian and archaeologist Robert Charroux dated them at 15,000 B.C.

11. Claudius Aelianus referred to Atlantis in his 3rd century work The Nature of Animals.

12. Theopompos - a Greek historian - wrote of the huge size of Atlantis and its cities of Machimum and Eusebius and a golden age free from disease and manual labor.

13. The tablet from Lhasa, Tibet and also from Easter Island make It is clear from ancient writings that belief in Atlantis was common and accepted in Greece, Egypt, and Mayax [Mayan and Aztec Empires) by historians.

14. The Basques of Spain, the Guals of France, the Celts of Scotland and Ireland, the tribes of the Canary and Azores islands, a tribe (Frysians) in Holland, and dozens of Indian tribes all speak of their origins in a large lost and sunken Atlantic land in which they all believe.
Through the ages and eras these stories about Atlantis became more and more a legend for most historians.
There is even enough evidence that Atlantis once existed in ancient times.

Dr. George Hunt Williamson, who authored several books on his Atlantean-Lemurian research in the 1950's, was an anthropologist explorer once listed in Who's Who in America. Williamson wrote how descendants of the Incas led him to an ancient manuscript in a temple in the Andes Mountains that told of the destruction of Atlantis and Mu, which had an advanced technology, by earthquakes and tidal waves. Williamson also visited dozens of Indian tribes in the United States and Mexico that told him of Atlantis and Mu, including the Hopi Indians.

www.earth-history.com...

Much more.

www.atlan.org...

reply to post by spacevisitor


Whether Atlantis is real or only a metaphor, it all comes back to the basic question:

Were there pre-historical civilized beings or not?

Religion and Darwinism teach that there were not. We object. Simple as that.

Normally I wouldnt have bothered looking into it and said "Who cares?"

My suspicion is aroused more the longer I look into it. The reasons for the supsicion are stacking up upon each other.

No matter what angle you look at it from, there is reason to believe that history has been tampered with to make us believe civilization only exists since a few thousand years.

You go about it from a level of circumstantial evidence, but it can also be approached from other levels. For example a psychological one:

When I hear someone counter with "Civilized people before 10 000 B.C.? Absolutely, Definetely, Certainly not...suspicion is aroused.

A person who frequently speaks in final absolutes is either

a) lacking basic intelligence

or

b) a liar (covering something up)

Somone with intelligence or honesty would say "Maybe" or, if skeptical "probably not".

So, you can gleen from the behaviour of some mainstream archaeologists and also posters on ATS that something is amiss.

______________________________

The collection of circumstantial evidence (not proof, evidence) that you listed, have been listed many, many, many times. Debunkers have already developed standardized rebuttals towards each and every point...some of which you will probably read here soon (not that their rebuttals convince me in any way though!) So, we also have to approach the Atlantis issue is by travelling down paths not published yet or yet underpublished, imo. Nevertheless your collection of basic data is ideal for newbies.

Originally posted by spacevisitor
Atlantis.
The discussion “has Atlantis really existed” is still ongoing because of great differences in opinions.
So, I searched for the maximum available evidence that support that claim, and these are my findings.
Correct me if I am wrong.
Is this evidence that proofs that it existed or isn’t.

No, it's not because it's (mostly) not even factual.

No underground pyramid complex has ever been found anywhere, for example.

The other stuff is bogus as well.

There may have been some mention of Atlantis after Plato in ancient times, but in each case the mentioning appears in critiques of Plato's Dialogues, not in some history.

There is no mention of Atlantis or anything similar to Atlantis before Plato.

Herodotus wrote of cattle with two legs shorter than the other two and that walked everywhere backwards.

He had people whose heads faced backwards in some of his "histories."

Maybe he did write about some island nation. There were many island nations around back then, you know.

Herodotus wrote about the Atlantes, a culture of people that lived in the foothills of the Atlas mountain range in Northern Africa.

That range, named after Atlas (that was where Atlas supposedly stands to hold up the sky) still goes by that name today.

Harte

Originally posted by Skyfloating

Whether Atlantis is real or only a metaphor, it all comes back to the basic question:

Were there pre-historical civilized beings or not?

Religion and Darwinism teach that there were not. We object. Simple as that.

Religion, maybe. Neither Evolution nor Darwinism say anything like what you here are wishing they would say.

Originally posted by Skyfloating
Normally I wouldnt have bothered looking into it and said "Who cares?"

My suspicion is aroused more the longer I look into it. The reasons for the supsicion are stacking up upon each other.

No matter what angle you look at it from, there is reason to believe that history has been tampered with to make us believe civilization only exists since a few thousand years.

You go about it from a level of circumstantial evidence, but it can also be approached from other levels. For example a psychological one:

When I hear someone counter with "Civilized people before 10 000 B.C.? Absolutely, Definetely, Certainly not...suspicion is aroused.

A person who frequently speaks in final absolutes is either

a) lacking basic intelligence

or

b) a liar (covering something up)

Somone with intelligence or honesty would say "Maybe" or, if skeptical "probably not".

So, you can gleen from the behaviour of some mainstream archaeologists and also posters on ATS that something is amiss.

This is the same old tired straw man argument.

Please provide quotes where mainstream archaeologists and/or posters here at ATS are saying "Absolutely, Definetely, Certainly not" or stop putting words in other peoples mouths simply because you want them to say them.

Originally posted by SkyfloatingThe collection of circumstantial evidence (not proof, evidence) that you listed, have been listed many, many, many times. Debunkers have already developed standardized rebuttals towards each and every point...some of which you will probably read here soon (not that their rebuttals convince me in any way though!) So, we also have to approach the Atlantis issue is by travelling down paths not published yet or yet underpublished, imo. Nevertheless your collection of basic data is ideal for newbies.

What you are doing here is pretending that I and others are foisting our opinions on the board as if they were facts. Please indicate any posts made that contain these so-called "Standardized rebuttals" where the rebuttal is not factual evidence that indicates the poster being rebutted is incorrect.

IOW, show me where:

Ancient writings from the Aztecs and Mayans like the Chilam Balam, Dresden Codex, Popuhl Vuh, Codex Cortesianus, and Troano Manuscript were also translated into histories of the destruction of Atlantis and Lemuria.

is factual. On it's face, it starts out in error, all the listed texts there are Mayan. Where's the Aztec?

I'm telling you right now, the only way the above statement is true is if you insert the word "incorrectly" between the words "Also" and "translated."
Some codices were mistranslated back in the 1800's. That makes sense since Mayan wasn't translatable until the early 1980's!

Augustus Le Plongeon figured out in the 1880's that Mayan Queen Moo left the Americas and sailed east, founding Egypt, in the "translation" he made of the Troano Codex, I assume that's the translation mentioned by the previous poster:

Le Plongeon is also known for his attempted translation of the Troano Codex.The "translation" was viewed with much skepticism at the time, and is considered by all modern authorities to be completely mistaken, based on little more than Le Plongeon's own imagination. He claimed that one section detailed the destruction of the lost continent of Mu, which he interpreted as Atlantis.

Source

Turned out that the Lemuria part he "translated" didn't even contain words. It was astronomical charts containing mostly numbers.

The Chilam Balam was written in freaking Spanish for God's sake. After the conquest. And it's filled with Christian symbology.

The Chilam Balam texts treat chiefly of history (both pre-Spanish and colonial), calendrics, astrology and herbal medicine. Written in the Yucatec Maya language (in European script), the manuscripts stem from the 18th and 19th centuries, although many of the texts that found their way into these books date back to the time of the Spanish conquest. It is assumed that in the earliest books, the element of prophecy came to the fore more strongly.

source

Similar problems exist for the Popul Vuh.
Both can be found and read for free right here. This leaves one to wonder whether any of these fringers even have a single whit of curiosity. I mean, you can all quote from silly fringe websites, but can you go see where these books say these things you claim, or is that just too much work?

Regarding Ammianus Marcellinus, that story comes from wacko Charles Berlitz.
Did you ever expect to see me quote from Crystallinks? I do so here because even the nutjobs at crystallinks know better than this:

The 4th century AD historian Ammianus Marcellinus, relying on a lost work by Timagenes, a historian writing in the 1st century BC, writes that the Druids of Gaul said that part of the inhabitants of Gaul had migrated there from distant islands. Ammianus' testimony has been understood by some as a claim that when Atlantis sunk into the sea, its inhabitants fled to western Europe; but Ammianus in fact says that the Drasidae (Druids) recall that a part of the population is indigenous but others also migrated in from islands and lands beyond the Rhine" (Res Gestae 15.9), an indication that the immigrants came to Gaul from the north and east, not from the Atlantic Ocean.

Ammianus Marcellinus' writings should be easy enough to check. After all, I doubt he's charging for them online like Sitchen does. Why is it that the "true believers" never check these things out for themselves? Fear?

Harte

[edit on 4/17/2008 by Harte]