The Holocaust is Overrated

whats the point steve. this dude's mind is set. he'll be like that for life.

Originally posted by Crakeur
reply to post by kangjia57

 

It's plain and simple. y'all are masking your agenda here and it isn't working. what's funny is that the consensus of the thread is that atrocities other than the holocaust deserve more attention and yet y'all are still railing against the holocaust getting the attention that it gets. Guess what, it deserves all that attention. So do all the other atrocities mentioned. instead of teaching them all, you opt for the teach less about the holocaust. know why? because by not talking about it, we forget how awful it was. by not constantly reviewing the meticulously kept records we forget.

Typical conspiracy theory loonery that goes on at ATS:

Normal Person, with a normal brain: posts on ATS attempting to start a discussion about why the Holocaust seems to have more attention devoted to it in the school system and perhaps the media.

Conspiracy loony: Ah ha! He has an agenda! I just know it! I will now begin reading too much into what he trying to discuss. Hmmm, questions the holocaust... the holocaust is centered around jews... ahhh, OMG!! He is racist and hates Jews!! He is trying to cover up the fact that he hates Jews by posting a thread that questions the Holocaust. Only people with really open minds such as myself will realize his secret agenda. I'll hint this to others by claiming that he has an agenda, and if they are smart enough, they'll know he's a racist too.

Do you really think people come on ATS to attempt to secretly discuss or divulge something else other than what they are claiming too? If you keep up on the agenda thing, you'll wind up like those people who start threads containing things like this:

1+2 = 3, and 3 is an odd number, so multiply it by itself and you get 9! Now, you started with 1 and 2, and now have 9. Take away the 2 and you are left with 1 and 9, which by adding another 1 to it, YOU GET 9/11 OMG!! The magic number is 3!!!! 3 towers fell!! Conspiracy! Conspiracy!!

I love how people here always start claiming some type of agenda.

because by not talking about it, we forget how awful it was.

Well, at this rate, we'll never, ever forget it - until the end of time! When we are zooming around in our personal spacecrafts, we'll still be saying, "Hey, lets take a moment to remember the Holocaust! If we don't, we might forget it, and do it again!"

Originally posted by benign.psychosis

Well, at this rate, we'll never, ever forget it - until the end of time! When we are zooming around in our personal spacecrafts, we'll still be saying, "Hey, lets take a moment to remember the Holocaust! If we don't, we might forget it, and do it again!"

or we can act like it didn't it happen or, wait, better yet, we can mourn the failures of the nazis. would that make you happier.

[Mod Edit: Please, if you have nothing to contribute to the topic at hand do not post - others may have. Please see Terms and Conditions 1f) Thank you - Jak]

[edit on 18/1/08 by JAK]

So... The OP asks why the holocaust gets so much attention.

The answer comes forth that its probably the easiest holocaust for us to relate to, and it has the most accessible records. It was even pointed out that maybe - just maybe - its focused on because it happened to predominently white people and easier for us to identify with, which is a rather salient point.

So...the OP and others then ask why the holocaust gets so much attention.

And the answer is reiterated, and people agree that other atrocities should be taught and mentioned, in fact its been suggested that equal time is given to them all.

So...the OP and others ask why the holocaust gets so much attention.

Theres a pattern here, and its nothing to do with other atrocities at all. Its to do with the holocaust and people having an axe to grind about it.

Specifically it seems, its to do with trying to shift attention away from it, or trivialise it.

Now why would anyone want to do that?

"Hey, six million people died in Germany but thats not so bad because 10 million died in China, so lets make out like that the Nazi's weren't soooo bad because, like, they only offed 6 million to the Japs 10 yeah?"

I don't think the dead people in either location would really give a toss about the numbers game, they'd probably just want to get their lives back in order to exact a bit of revenge on the moronic cowardly bastards who had the relative luxury of being better armed and ganged up on them and sent them to an early grave.

That or they'd want the whole world to know that a murdering genocidal coward is the same whether he's from one side of the planet or the other, and the common denomenator in it all is to learn from history that mass extermination programs of fellow human beings absolutely suck, and by seeing exactly what and how things went wrong people might just be able to prevent themselves from being beheadded or gassed one day.

A genocide campaign is a genocide campaign is a genocide campain, and we've all learned so far that theirs no race/colour or restriction cap on who can carry them out so, heres a more pertinent question that pertains to this thread, and, in Kanja style, I'm going to up the font size and put it in bold.

Why does it matter to people that the Holocaust is taught in the manner it is in Western Schools?

I'm betting that its nowt to do with fairness or proportional representation.










[edit on 18/0108/08 by neformore]

Reply to neformore

Why does it matter to people that the Holocaust is taught in the manner it is in Western Schools?

Because Not everyone wants to learn about Holocaust in 90% of their History lessons in Western Schools.

Understand?

Originally posted by kangjia57
Because Not everyone wants to learn about Holocaust in 90% of their History lessons in Western Schools.

Understand?

I'm assuming you've got statistics to back that up.

Originally posted by kangjia57
Because Not everyone wants to learn about Holocaust in 90% of their History lessons in Western Schools.

you're saying that 90% of the entire history curriculum is devoted to the holocaust and the remaining 10% is spread out over the history of everything else?

you know, you're right. that is too much time. what do you have, like 46 chapters on the holocaust and an appendix listing other, lesser events that happened throughout history?

c'mon man, let's talk real here. given your 90 10 ratio, you'd know pretty much zip about anything else and you seem to know about quite a few things from our past. I think you're overestimating a bit, no? a tad?

Originally posted by kangjia57
Because Not everyone wants to learn about Holocaust in 90% of their History lessons in Western Schools.

Understand?

No.

Explain why.

Originally posted by Crakeur

Originally posted by benign.psychosis

Well, at this rate, we'll never, ever forget it - until the end of time! When we are zooming around in our personal spacecrafts, we'll still be saying, "Hey, lets take a moment to remember the Holocaust! If we don't, we might forget it, and do it again!"

or we can act like it didn't it happen or, wait, better yet, we can mourn the failures of the nazis. would that make you happier.

Here is a simple comparitive illustration of what the OP is getting at, I think. This would represent something along the lines of the emphisis of such events in schooling and in the media:

|------------------------------Holocaust---------------------------------|

|-other genocides-|



That's it. Simple. The Holocaust is "overrated" as a genocide! It is not a bad thread title as all these other loons are suggesting. The Holocaust today is being touted as the #1 Uber genocide of all time, while it is barely such, while Hitler and the Nazi's are the #1 Uber Nazi Killer evil clowns of all time! It's simply not the truth.

This thread isn't about a this-or-that choice, it's about being more balanced - as in, the middle - not those two extremes you've proposed. Hey, we all know it's possible to commit genocide. Not remembering the Holocaust isn't going to make us forget that. Some people would like to see the coverage of genocides as such:

|--------------Holocaust----------------|

|-----------Other Genocides-----------|


In order to do that, you can not dicuss the Holocaust at the lengths that it is currently discussed. You have to NOT TEACH some things about it. It's not about the whole scope of history, it's about the scope of Genocides. We want to learn the other ways you can kill races, instead of only thinking that gas chambers and ovens will do!

But to suggest that means you have an agenda! Yes! an agenda of a balanced education that doesn't center around making people fearful of saying anything remotely anti-semitic! We've all seen people use the words "The Jew" here before and get attacked by people who claim that it it racist! Nonsense.

The thing is, along with what is being taught in school about the holocaust, and the other mandatory home-readings about it, we hear about it all the time in the media. It's either something about a Nazi saying it didn't happen, someone getting arrested for questioning it, something about holocaust deniers, something about a survivor, etc... none of it is news as much as it is propaganda for the means of Jewish sympathy. Just look at the link to the CIA document I posted earlier, The Zionist Propaganda Machine is real, and these stories are all part of it. I've read somewhere that most major newspapers public 300 holocaust related stories per year.

What for? For the US sympathy of a sustained presense of the Jewish State, which since it's inception has brought nothing more than sustained war in the middle east. It takes two to tango, and it is not about the Arab world "accepting" anything as much as it is about the rest of the world respecting the Arab religion as well as the Jewish Zionist agenda, instead of only respecting the Jewish Zionist agenda while giving the Arab world the # end of the stick and treating them like... well, like the native Americans - tribal, savage, crazy, not fit to exist...

You don't hear anything about black slavery nearly as much, or even other genocides - at all. The largest and longest genocide in history - the genocide of the American Indian, is virtually never talked about in the media. It's barely even touched upon in College History courses.

With that being said, I would imagine that if the majority of owners of media outlets were Native American - instead of Jewish - we would constantly hear about it.

And people would come to ATS questioning it, only to be called Anti-Indian or some other silly world.

People talk about equality of race and equality of people, all while casting off Hitler and the Nazis as unequal, evil villians...

You're either with equality, or your without it.

Reply to Crakeur

c'mon man, let's talk real here. given your 90 10 ratio, you'd know pretty much zip about anything else and you seem to know about quite a few things from our past. I think you're overestimating a bit, no? a tad?

Well looking at what I learned in my GCSE/A level history, I can mostly think only about WW2 and ‘The Holocaust’.

Damn also Reminded 2 projects/coursework’s I have done in A levels on ‘The Holocaust’ which was about 40% and one exam about 30% of the course .(The teacher didn’t let me choose a topic for the second coursework as I took too much time looking for a historical topic to write on, than told me to do one on holocaust.)
My Bad..

Originally posted by benign.psychosis
You don't hear anything about black slavery nearly as much, or even other genocides - at all. The largest and longest genocide in history - the genocide of the American Indian, is virtually never talked about in the media. It's barely even touched upon in College History courses.

I would LOVE to see some stats on that. I studied all about that in high school.

As for what the OP is talking about I checked my alma mater's website today and there are numerous courses offered on Asian history.

Being pro-jewish and pro-isreal, I´ll be the first to admit that all the TV-Shows and Schooling on the Holocaust get tiresome after awhile.

See? I admitted it.

Having said that, it is not true that some of the posters at this board do not have an agenda.

I am not going to name names, but certain names do pop up everywhere you have either an anti-jewish topic or a pro-nazi or pro-radical-islam topic. Coincidence? Not hardly.

The agenda of some is not to politely "inform" us about the holocaust, the agenda is red hot firey hatred and bigotry.

If for example we should be informed about other races that were victim of the holocaust, why not simply open a thread about them?

I can agree with the points you are making but I wouldn't say those atrocities are worse, they were equally bad for the individuals who suffered and history shouldn't forget them, what happened in Croatia during WWII was as disgusting as anything that happened anywhere, also largely forgotten/ignored by the media, I agree that the jewish deaths during that period seem to get more attention from the mainstream media and education systems (the deaths in Croatia are almost never mentioned, mostly because of the proven links to the Vaticans involvement, likewise the deaths in Spain during this period don't get so much coverage, or Stalins purges of the Orthodox peoples), the atrocities in asia deserve more attention, mass-murder and genocides everywhere are deplorable acts and there shouldn't be a bias in the media as to which deserve the sympathies and attention and which should be ignored. The British were guilty of atrocities in Africa during the 1950's, what happened in Cambodia was equally horrific, the people who have died in the american-led invasion of Iraq will feel their deaths are of equal significance. The jewish deaths did get undue attention, and mostly for the benefit of the zionist leaders who rule Israel, but the jewish people did suffer terribly during WWII, as they did in previous times, the jews have a long history of oppression in europe, the aborigines and the native americans can all feel that they have been terribly oppressed and their cause never got the sympathy they deserved in the western world. When it comes to it, the people who control the media will decide where they specifically want to shine the spotlight, and there was motives for particularly shining the spotlight on the jewish deaths during WWII but totally ignoring the Croatian atrocities (that even sickened many of the german nazi's). The atrocities Red China have commited in Buddhist Tibet deserve as much attention as any, what happened in Rwanda in the 1990's, the list goes on and on, but the media and the state-controlled education systems will highlight whichever stories they wish, put whichever spin they wish and ignore the stories they don't want the public to learn too much about.

reply to post by benign.psychosis


In a nutshell...

What you're saying is that you'd rather not hear about the deaths of 6 million people because they were Jewish, and that the Holocaust paints Hitler and the Nazi's in a bad light, and you're using the argument that there are plenty of other atrocities that could take attention away from it.

But.... Hitler and the Nazi's were scumbags that carried out an atrocity that killed 6 million people, right?

So, you could have , say, 99 pages in 100 page book devoted to atrocities, dealing with every single method people have come up with to wipe each other out BUT at the end of the book, it would no doubt still read

"The Nazi's - led by Adolf Hitler in WW2, carried out the systematic extermination of 6 million people by gassing/mass shooting/starving them to death on the pretext of carrying out the small dark haired dictators eugenic fantasy of creating a blonde haired blue eyed master race and a thousand year reich which came crashing to a halt when the coward shot his wife and them himself in the head in a bunker in Berlin before the Soviets could get their hands on him, as he didn't have the courage to face a trial for his crimes"

Ain't history a bitch?

We can't see the forest for the trees

The fact of the matter is that the Holocaust was a part of the single largest event in modern history, WW2. What came out of that? The Cold War, 2 major superpowers, the atomic age, etc. The Holocaust is but a part of that major event. What about the Battle for Britain? Pearl Harbor? Battle for Stalingrad?

It was an event that involved most western nations. There are those still with us that were directly influenced by WW2. If it wasn't for that I wouldn't be here(I know, that wouldn't be such a bad thing to some ), my Grandmother was a war bride. The fact that Asian atrocities aren't given the same due is because they aren't directly related to the west. Does that lessen them? Of course not and bringing them to light is a good thing but let's keep perspective.

Originally posted by neformore
So... The OP asks why the holocaust gets so much attention.

The answer comes forth that its probably the easiest holocaust for us to relate to, and it has the most accessible records. It was even pointed out that maybe - just maybe - its focused on because it happened to predominently white people and easier for us to identify with, which is a rather salient point.

So...the OP and others then ask why the holocaust gets so much attention.

And the answer is reiterated, and people agree that other atrocities should be taught and mentioned, in fact its been suggested that equal time is given to them all.

So...the OP and others ask why the holocaust gets so much attention.

Theres a pattern here, and its nothing to do with other atrocities at all. Its to do with the holocaust and people having an axe to grind about it.

Specifically it seems, its to do with trying to shift attention away from it, or trivialise it.

Now why would anyone want to do that?

"Hey, six million people died in Germany but thats not so bad because 10 million died in China, so lets make out like that the Nazi's weren't soooo bad because, like, they only offed 6 million to the Japs 10 yeah?"

I don't think the dead people in either location would really give a toss about the numbers game, they'd probably just want to get their lives back in order to exact a bit of revenge on the moronic cowardly bastards who had the relative luxury of being better armed and ganged up on them and sent them to an early grave.

That or they'd want the whole world to know that a murdering genocidal coward is the same whether he's from one side of the planet or the other, and the common denomenator in it all is to learn from history that mass extermination programs of fellow human beings absolutely suck, and by seeing exactly what and how things went wrong people might just be able to prevent themselves from being beheadded or gassed one day.

A genocide campaign is a genocide campaign is a genocide campain, and we've all learned so far that theirs no race/colour or restriction cap on who can carry them out so, heres a more pertinent question that pertains to this thread, and, in Kanja style, I'm going to up the font size and put it in bold.

Why does it matter to people that the Holocaust is taught in the manner it is in Western Schools?

I'm betting that its nowt to do with fairness or proportional representation.

[edit on 18/0108/08 by neformore]

I think benign psychosis is closest to what I'm getting at. I HAVE NO "AGENDA". I haven't asked the same question so many times. I mean do I have to respond to every answer like there is just one right answer. I consider them all and I read them all. Every time I restate my question is in defense to someone calling me anti-semitic. Like "I'm not trying to be racist, all I am asking is [question]."

And I'm not saying the Nazi's weren't bad. You're misrepresenting me with your "impersonation". I never said anything about the Nazi's not being bad. I am saying that the Nazis and the Holocaust may be overemphasized in relation to other atrocities/regimes.

Oh and I've already answered your "answer", which was:

"The answer comes forth that its probably the easiest holocaust for us to relate to, and it has the most accessible records. It was even pointed out that maybe - just maybe - its focused on because it happened to predominently white people and easier for us to identify with, which is a rather salient point."

My answer (same as before you can find the post): There is just as much documentation on the atrocities in Asia, perhaps even more, but you can't really quantify the evidence that way. Does video evidence have more value than document? The Holocaust is well documented, but it is certainly not the most documented or anything of that sort.

reply to post by italkyoulisten


Some of the origins of the work Holocaust is discussed in this clip if you forward to 05.45mins . The inclusion of the word in the Roman Catholic Bible, but its absence from other translations of the Bible is interesting.

Originally posted by neformore
reply to post by benign.psychosis

 

In a nutshell...

What you're saying is that you'd rather not hear about the deaths of 6 million people because they were Jewish, and that the Holocaust paints Hitler and the Nazi's in a bad light, and you're using the argument that there are plenty of other atrocities that could take attention away from it.

But.... Hitler and the Nazi's were scumbags that carried out an atrocity that killed 6 million people, right?

So, you could have , say, 99 pages in 100 page book devoted to atrocities, dealing with every single method people have come up with to wipe each other out BUT at the end of the book, it would no doubt still read

"The Nazi's - led by Adolf Hitler in WW2, carried out the systematic extermination of 6 million people by gassing/mass shooting/starving them to death on the pretext of carrying out the small dark haired dictators eugenic fantasy of creating a blonde haired blue eyed master race and a thousand year reich which came crashing to a halt when the coward shot his wife and them himself in the head in a bunker in Berlin before the Soviets could get their hands on him, as he didn't have the courage to face a trial for his crimes"

Ain't history a bitch?

Neformore, benign did not say anything of that sort. He is saying the Holocaust gets a lot of attention while other atrocities do not. IT DOES NOT HAVE TO DO WITH JEWS AT ALL. If instead of Jews, 6 million Muslims were killed, and the event was blown equally out of proportion to its actual historical significance while other atrocities were barely taught, then we would be here with the same question: Why? Now I'm not re-asking my question, I am just saying, in our defense, that all we are doing is asking a question, not hating on Jews, or anything of the sort.

Historically, exterminating the Jews was only a small portion of his plan, which included exterminating other minorities, as well as massive expansion, and everything else necessary to create the Third Reich. You are saying that it was the Holocaust that determined the war, which led to Hitler's eventual suicide, not the Russian army, or all those decisive battles, the Eastern Theater, and all the events that made up and decided WWII, each of which had a profound effect on the development of the civilizations afterward.

Originally posted by italkyoulisten

I HAVE NO "AGENDA"

Well, at least you know there are people here that don't automatically accuse you of being racist. I've already been accused of not wanted to hear about the Holocaust because it involves Jews by nefemore, but I'm not even going to take the time to reply that post, as it only seems to attempt to give clarification to me of what I actually mean when I type.

Now that you've said you have no agenda, this is what is going to happen: You will be called a racist and accused of having an agenda even more. Everything you say now will be loaded words.

Normal person: "I have no Agenda"

Conspiracy loony: That's proof that he has an agenda! He's a liar, and a racist. He's only trying to hide it by saying the opposite! I am no fool, and such a lie will not fool me! I will drive it out of him! I will let everyone know that he is a racist, because I have a skewed messiah complex that disallows me from engaging in any type of normal debate!



Skyfloating mentioned,

I am not going to name names, but certain names do pop up everywhere you have either an anti-jewish topic or a pro-nazi or pro-radical-islam topic. Coincidence? Not hardly.

So, is this an anti-jewish topic or a pro-nazi topic?