The Holocaust is Overrated

Originally posted by neformore

Originally posted by Crakeur
It isn't being overtaught. Other atrocities are not being taught enough. Don't teach less, teach more. About all of them.

Bingo! Yes. We have a winner.
Thats exactly it.

I don't understand why this excites you.

This is basically what the OP is saying, only this version says the others are not being as taught as the Holocaust, instead of the stating that the Holocaust is being taught more.

What is the difference?

Other atrocities seem to have a cursory write-up and less "air time" so to speak, but this particular one does not. While the point Crakeur made is valid that does not change the fact that one is more emphasized over the others. In fact it confirms this.

How ever you choose to word it, the fact still remains. The question of "why" is a relevant one.

- Lee

Originally posted by buddhasystem
I encourage you to read your own post, that part of it. I like the "same way" part. And I guess you really have answered your own question here...

I'm not the OP, am I?

So how could I answer that question

Originally posted by lee anoma
I don't understand why this excites you.

This is basically what the OP is saying, only this version says the others are not being as taught as the Holocaust, instead of the stating that the Holocaust is being taught more.

What is the difference?

Well Lee, with all due respect, I already did answer that earlier in the thread, and other people have answered it too.

In a nutshell, in Western terms, its the most well documented, accessible holocaust we have to work with.

Now I don't see how thats too hard to figure out.

Originally posted by buddhasystem
I think this is well written. The mud slinging I've observed in this thread confirms to me that some people have a conditioned reaction to these issues. Which in part is due to the apparent success of the Holocaust marketing.

And I could just as easily point out that statements such as yours above about "holocaust marketing" - WTF? - and others like it on this thread could be due to the success of anti-semitic marketing. Now there's a business that's been operating for a couple thousand years at least! So, don't feel too bad if you've just bought into it recently.

Reply to Crakeur

please explain how? they aren't an oil producing nation.

My mistake not from oil profits but FREE/Cheap oil from Iraq.
Israel produces only a couple thousand barrels of oil a day, which means it relies on the global market for more than 99 percent of its consumption.
Israel has been looking for a local source of oil. Iran filled that need for a while: Starting in 1968, the Israelis used a pipe called the "TIPline" to import Iranian oil from the Red Sea. But the shah was overthrown in 1979, and Iran shut off the tap.These days, Israel lets the Russians use the TIPline to pump oil in the opposite direction.
Having a close supplier would increase Israel's energy security and reduce the cost of its imports.
With Saddam in power it was Impossible But the ‘War In Iraq’, they are trying to restart an abandoned pipeline that runs from Mosul, Iraq, to Haifa.

My point was to show that, if we look passed our beliefs or our skin color or our backgrounds, we can get along and help eachother in times of need.

Tell that to the Bad Jews (zionists).They want to extend not Muslims. It’s not hard to give the lands back. But Israel wants the whole thing to escalate.

It isn't being overtaught. Other atrocities are not being taught enough. Don't teach less, teach more. About all of them.

There is only certain Time in schools/colleges where you can teach about history and within that time they SHOULD try and fit in other topics aswel.I am sure the kids don’t wana stay at school/college from 9 till 6 to spend learning about other 'historical attrocities' when the actual history lessons are spent talking about Holocaust.

teach your children about the things they don't learn in school. educate them to the other atrocities that the world is giving less attention to. Don't teach that the holocaust is not worthy of all the attention, that the plight of the jews in WWII is bad but not that bad. That projects the wrong message.

Yes I will obviously have to teach them about other atrocities if they keep on teaching about holocaust in history lessons and Nothing Else. Holocaust is worthy of attention but Not Constant/All the attention. So if there is another atrocity in history where more people died in a genocide than how’s that not worse than the Holocaust?

Originally posted by neformore
Now I don't see how thats too hard to figure out.

That doesn't appear to be be their aim.

Otherwise, why would the answers given continue to not be explicitly addressed?

*sigh*



[edit on 18-1-2008 by loam]

Originally posted by kangjia57
Holocaust is worthy of attention but Not Constant/All the attention. So if there is another atrocity in history where more people died in a genocide than how’s that not worse than the Holocaust?

back when I went to school the holocaust didn't take up all the time I was there. we studied WWII and the holocaust was a part of the lesson plan and then we moved on. It didn't receive constant attention nor did it receive all the attention.

lastly, and I am getting tired of repeating this, I didn't say the holocaust was worse than any other genocide or atrocity. They are all equally bad and should all be taught. All genocides and atrocities are bad, all perpetrators should be punished, all students should learn about these atrocities so we can avoid duplicating them down the road.

now, go back and reread that last paragraph because repeating it for you is getting old.

what some of the other folks are saying is true. nobody's arguing that other atrocities should get more attention. this is starting to remind of this serial killer I studied in high school (I know, one of the identifiers of future serial killers is interest in past bad deeds). The guy was on trial for something like 23 murders and he was upset that John Wayne Gacy was getting more press because they just hadn't found the rest of the bodies yet. Bad is bad all around. I'm beginning to wonder if perhaps one of the reasons people complain about the amount of attention the holocaust gets is really because they feel like it was an incomplete job. had the nazis been done a more complete job, would it be easier to accept the amount of coverage it gets? Afterall, had they won, the lesson plan would be of the triumph of ridding the world of the evil jews.

Originally posted by Dark Crystalline
dAlen. Well, well, well. Don't I live here in Budapest?

What sort of corruption is going on and whose are behind it (Jewish party with their 1 percent, whose wants to decide the fate of my country. Rings the bell?). If you want, I can tell you what is going on here. De ha akarod, akkor elmondom neked Magyarul is.

Oh. And if you don't like something in my country, go back to Tel Aviv or wherever from you came. You're a guest in my country (If you really live here, what I really doubt.). So, act like that.

P.S.: I sent this reply to you directly too, just to have a chance to reply.

1) If you re-read the post I say you must be living in Hungary - as Hungarians outside the country dont usually have the collective "patriotic sorrow" that is known for the majority of Hungarians living here. (not all, but its a trend in 'thought')
2) Interesting, does everyone you disagree with get labeled as being from Tel Aviv???
3) Im a guest in your country? Hmm, which country? The country (Hungary) ruled by the Turks, or the country (Hungary) ruled by the Austrians, or the country (Hungary) who chose to side with the Germans? (again, obviously Im making a point here that is sure to be missed, but let me continue). Im in a country owned by the E.U.

You see, my right to be here is based on E.U. law. And even more I have right (if I want) to be a citizen. So if I were a Hungarian citizen would you like me more, or at least stop telling me (inferring) how I should be grateful for things that I dont particularly like?

I forgot. Some Hungarians are not welcoming even to their own kind. Lets say those Hungarians living in Transylvania, Romania...they still have a hard time coming to live in Hungary. And whats more, the Romanians treat them bad for being Hungarian...there stuck.

Oh, and the gypsies who are citizens...I suppose they should be grateful for being given citizenship. (even though many were born here.) Im not sure, but from what I understand you saying, its a lot of that political patriotic humbug I dont like - regardless of what country its coming from.

And your bit in Hungarian...thought that was clever. I have no issue with Hungarian, you can post your whole post in it...although in this board is specifically English only by rule.)

I can understand that you feel defensive. Words are tricky at best, and the fact that how I approach the way I speak to you is from a different mindset then how you approach how you talk to me, makes communication even more fragile.

Im not against you, but I am tired of what I said...the whole patriotic humbug that I see. Its like a dieing desperate people trying to hang on to an identity. (Other countries have this issue to.)

Anyway...Peace

dAlen

Reply to Crakeur

I'm beginning to wonder if perhaps one of the reasons people complain about the amount of attention the holocaust gets is really because they feel like it was an incomplete job. had the nazis been done a more complete job, would it be easier to accept the amount of coverage it gets? Afterall, had they won, the lesson plan would be of the triumph of ridding the world of the evil jews.

Nope I am Definitely not one of those people.
Holocaust should be Covered But NOT to an extent where if One says ‘HiSTORY’ than the First Thing that Only Pops in my Head is Holocaust.
That’s the Point I am tryna Make.

Originally posted by neformore


In a nutshell, in Western terms, its the most well documented, accessible holocaust we have to work with.

Now I don't see how thats too hard to figure out.

Well documented or not. That is not the point when it is being force fed through middle school and high school. We are not talking about breaking down of the psychology and analyzing all the recorded media. We are talking about 4th-8th grade history books that used bias numbers and public opinion conformity and state them as fact. The account of the holocaust, first, needs to be looked at through an un-emotional 3rd party perspective when being taught. Then bring in the facts pointed out by the media and other sources (which come in plenty i.e. the CIA documents pointed out by benign psychosis) which do not all agree. Only then, placed in the history books accordingly and comparatively with other well documented genocides.

So, the fact that it is the most documented event ever means nothing.

Once a student reaches college and they would like to learn more about this particular event in history, then by all means all that data recorded should be utilized in teaching a true class about the holocaust. One that is not biased or based off unsubstantiated numbers or reports. And the whole picture should be reviewed.

Personally, I agree with the intent of the original post. Though, I understand the emotions attached to the history of those that are older or of the Jewish faith.

Originally posted by Crakeur
I'm beginning to wonder if perhaps one of the reasons people complain about the amount of attention the holocaust gets is really because they feel like it was an incomplete job. had the nazis been done a more complete job, would it be easier to accept the amount of coverage it gets? Afterall, had they won, the lesson plan would be of the triumph of ridding the world of the evil jews.

You know, different people have their agendas.
For me personally I think it gets so much attention because there is something missing.

let me see if I can put this clearly as not to be misunderstood.

As I have mentioned in other post, the holocaust is not unique. This DOES NOT take away from the tragedy. This DOES NOT take away from the fact that Jews were killed, and gypsies, and Germans after the War, etc.

For me I feel it helps to step back and get a bigger picture.
By always focusing on one event in history we continue to get that.
Wars, and in particular genocides, etc. continue to happen. Why? Because nothing is as bad as the holocaust. Its like a strange twist of fate.

Now nothing is as bad as the holocaust...so scatter bombs, innocents dieing, etc. go unnoticed virtually and is 'permitted.'

The holocaust was similar. Like the Neuteri Karta points out, as well as other valid sources (George Bush said they should have bombed them to stop it from happening)...the point is while the holocaust was happening, it was ignored.

It became an evil (which it is of course), and today crap continues to happen, and like then no one stops them. Part of this is due to focusing on just one group who we want to make sure not to torture. Should not the lesson have been wider. Or lets not torture anyone again. Not just "the jews died" protect them. But people died...period...lets protect people.

Labels (not bad) can and do often get in the way, and conflicts usually arise over labels and titles of ownership, etc.

I dont know if this is any clearer than before. But i dont see the world split - I see (artificial) borders made by religion and countries, etc, but behind all of that we are from the same star dust.

What we do have our collective pain bodies as Eckhart Tolle put it.
A Hungarian pain body as mentioned in my earlier post, a British, American, and yes Jewish painbody. As I mentioned, look up conversion on the chabad site and see that indeed to convert it is considered that you must pick up on the 'pain' (as it were) of the Jewish collective.

More mystical sounding to some, but this is really all story. No Im not saying that the deaths of innocents (Jew, Arab, whoever) is irrelevant. What I am saying is that we get so wrapped up in the identification of who we our by nation, religion, etc. that these things tend to pop up. And again, what we focus on tends to come to us. This does not mean to ignore a situation, but it may be helpful not to obsess on it. (Nor am I implying you are, just a general statement.)

post like this are hard, because everyone brings their own view point in, and rarely can hear the other side of the story...the way that person means it.

Past this, I have nothing more to say that can clarify where Im coming from...so I will leave it at this.

Best to you all. (even to the hungarian dude that seems so upset)

Peace

dAlen

Originally posted by neformore

Originally posted by Crakeur
It isn't being overtaught. Other atrocities are not being taught enough. Don't teach less, teach more. About all of them.

Bingo! Yes. We have a winner.

Thats exactly it.

Oh Excite! I am very excite!! Hello! Hello U S and A!!

There is only a limited amount of time for students to learn to become more ignorant of other events in the school system. The emphesis and additional readings about the Holocaust only works to speed this up.

If you two would like to petition the department of education to extend school hours and shorten Christmas vaction, then go ahead.

Originally posted by abelievingskeptic
Personally, I agree with the intent of the original post. Though, I understand the emotions attached to the history of those that are older or of the Jewish faith.

I am neither old nor Jewish.

But I can see through the veiled attempt to diminish this particular atrocity for some other unexpressed agenda.

Make all the assertions you wish. The fact remains you and others have utterly failed to demonstrate the basic premise of this thread. As I have already demonstrated, the Holocaust does not appear to be materially represented in American education in an unreasonably disproportionate manner to other similar examples of genocide. Many others are just as freely presented in the curricula.

If you want to dispute the basic nature of the Holocaust, then start a thread for that purpose elsewhere and enjoy your intellectually dishonest hate fest in pursuit of your version of denying ignorance.

I'd be glad to see what you really got.

Reply to benign.psychosis

If you two would like to petition the department of education to extend school hours and shorten Christmas vaction, then go ahead.

Hahaha Nice One matey!
I think that’s what they all mean aswel.I feel sorry for all the kids who will have to Get On with this NEW Timetable.


[edit on 18-1-2008 by kangjia57]

reply to post by kangjia57


when you have no leg to stand on, you go with the mocking and ridicule. that about sums it up for me.

Reply to Crakeur

when you have no leg to stand on, you go with the mocking and ridicule. that about sums it up for me.

Its not my Fault benign.psychosis cracked a funny sentence.

Well I guess you found an excuse to get off this thread cos you have been outdebated Matey. GL

reply to post by neformore


Not only is that not the point, it is simply not true.

There are plenty of other atrocities and massacres that have happened in the Western world that are VERY well documented but don't have the title Holocaust. They get very little attention and simply a brief mention.

I'll leave you to figure them out.

I was just curious as to why that particular statement somehow stood out above all others when it is the exact same thing the OP has said only slightly reversed.

I also said that the OP's question of "why" was relevant, and it still is. I did not say that there was no possible answer. You can deliver what you believe to be the answer minus the sarcasm/defensiveness and this thread would probably not look so heated.

I don't think that his original post was meant to be antisemitic but perhaps reflective of someone that feels a historical WWII 'holocaust' (that perhaps relates to him more personally) is being ignored and that the historical tragedies being taught of WWII in classrooms appear to be imbalanced.

In that sense he is right.

I don't want to kill Jews for gods sake but some of you want to kill open dialouge about them.

Originally posted by loam

Originally posted by neformore
Now I don't see how thats too hard to figure out.

That doesn't appear to be be their aim.

Otherwise, why would the answers given continue to not be explicitly addressed?

*sigh*

On that note of arrogance I'll take my leave.

- Lee

reply to post by kangjia57


hmmm, outdebated. interesting concept.

um, no.

It's plain and simple. y'all are masking your agenda here and it isn't working. what's funny is that the consensus of the thread is that atrocities other than the holocaust deserve more attention and yet y'all are still railing against the holocaust getting the attention that it gets. Guess what, it deserves all that attention. So do all the other atrocities mentioned. instead of teaching them all, you opt for the teach less about the holocaust. know why? because by not talking about it, we forget how awful it was. by not constantly reviewing the meticulously kept records we forget.

what always makes me laugh is that, for a master race, they sure were dumb. first rule of serial killing - never keep records, never keep trophies, never leave a trace of what you did or are doing.

these buffoons were so anal retentive they recorded everything they could and then their children wonder why the holocaust is studied as much as it is. if they had gone about their business, left little or no records as to what they've done, this all might have been two or three pages in the history books. they wrote the books themselves.

Reply to Crakeur

these buffoons were so anal retentive they recorded everything they could and then their children wonder why the holocaust is studied as much as it is. if they had gone about their business, left little or no records as to what they've done, this all might have been two or three pages in the history books. they wrote the books themselves.

Bahhhh!You misunderstand again my Dear friend.

Its ok to write books keep long records Etc..

But there should also be a ‘little’ space for other atrocities to be taught in the history lessons.Dont you think?
Am I or Are We asking for too much?
You know most kids won’t really come home and research on other ‘Bad Things’ that have happened in history.
Maybe abit about Holocaust and abit about other ‘atrocities’ will broaden the childs views of the ‘Bad Events’ and which might make him/her understand more to why and how they happened and what’s Common between them.

Originally posted by loam
If you want to dispute the basic nature of the Holocaust, then start a thread for that purpose elsewhere and enjoy your intellectually dishonest hate fest in pursuit of your version of denying ignorance.

a) the OP never questioned the "basic nature of the Holocaust", the way you put it. You dragging this into debate is a sign of conditioned reaction to me. Just like any critique of the State of Israel on Shaun Hannity forum results in permaban.

b) you obviously don't have any idea what "hate fest" looks like. The OP was polite and didn't include any attempt at fostering hate. If you perceive it this way, that again is a conditioned reaction. You can't help it.